Anti-Catholicism

I suppose it is the family tree you speak of that I find some disagreement....I see your point, I was once in the Church.

My point was this- Jesus never mandated a church as a construction in his place. The church is the body of christ risen. There is no need for a doctrine under man, created by man. I was told that Mary and Joseph and all saints were intercessors for me to God; I simply believe Jesus when he said no man should come to God but through Him........that's just me.......

I no little about any mis-translations.....by the way.

Well its no surprise that there is this sentiment if you look over the history of the church. It has been corrupt backward and downright nasty over the years. This is why the reformation happened in europe. It may have been centuris since Luther made the break but the church has failed to deal properly with its problems.

Corruption is still endemic in the church as can be seen in the recent controversies over the child abuse. Lets face it no one likes paedophiles do they??? These people are supposed to be the arbiters of peoples spiritual lifes so how can we trust them when they protect such disgusting acts.

For myself I have no problems with anyone of any faith and would not seek to persecute them in anyway. I live in europe and have no idea how catholics are treated there so I can`t comment on your personal circumstance.

Personally I`m glad that in britain we shipped all the religious nuts to america and the convicts to Australia (jk)

Maddas,
...well, I am leery of these topics with people you don't know. It can cause some anger and it is toooooo early for anger!! I can't argue well on an empty stomach anyways... Lets compromise and agree at the core?!

[Edited on 12-7-2003 by Tyriffic]

Originally posted by cassini
Well its no surprise that there is this sentiment if you look over the history of the church. It has been corrupt backward and downright nasty over the years. This is why the reformation happened in europe. It may have been centuris since Luther made the break but the church has failed to deal properly with its problems.

Corruption is still endemic in the church as can be seen in the recent controversies over the child abuse. Lets face it no one likes paedophiles do they??? These people are supposed to be the arbiters of peoples spiritual lifes so how can we trust them when they protect such disgusting acts.

For myself I have no problems with anyone of any faith and would not seek to persecute them in anyway. I live in europe and have no idea how catholics are treated there so I can`t comment on your personal circumstance.

Personally I`m glad that in britain we shipped all the religious nuts to america and the convicts to Australia (jk)

So, what did that leave you guys over there???

Pyros, don't pay any attention to James Quite the Lesser, half of what he says has substance but is misplaced, the other half is silliness made up by either him or somebody else and he buys it as "Gospel" (couldn't resist!)

AS a Southern Baptist, and one living in Alabama at that, I haven't seen what you've experienced. I have friends that are Catholic and they have never expressed any problem.

On the other hand, I know people that have conveted from Catholic to protestant and they fear for the spiritual well-being of their friends and family that are still Catholic. A common thread to their story is they had a religion, complete with rituals, but without the personal relationship that comes with actually accepting Christ as your savior and becoming "Born Again".

Not being ever in the Catholic church, I can't tell you what the deal is or the differences. I can tell you I have no idea what you are talking about but do not doubt your experiences are real. I can't apologize for someone else, but I can say I regret you had to endure them.

James, go to church. You need it!

HELLO from james, new in this forum ( both French and Estonian citizen )!! ... this matter is also the matter about ALL WORLD BELIEFS... each "so called church" tries to teach you they ARE the only saying truth ! What a shame !

US medias lied to American people saying that GWB is "good christian baptist, born again" ... go to www.google.com... and type BUSH BOHEMIAN GROVE SKULL BONES BLOOD SATANIST ILLUMINATI ... That's real ... GW is "born again" BUT that means he shared a BLACK MESS with SKULL BONES, and the term is given to any new member of SB !!!

The only truth stands in the Bible ( most sold in so many countries, most translated ... and best unknown).
Someone did speak you about the Royal Law ? you can read it at EXODUS 20 or DEUTERONOMY 5 ...
groups.msn.com...

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

On the other hand, I know people that have conveted from Catholic to protestant and they fear for the spiritual well-being of their friends and family that are still Catholic. A common thread to their story is they had a religion, complete with rituals, but without the personal relationship that comes with actually accepting Christ as your savior and becoming "Born Again".



James, go to church. You need it!

I guess this statement is true for all people swaping religions and beleifs.

Catholicism is, because of it being widespread in latin america, europe, africa, by essence an _international_ religion, claiming all humans equal before god, strongly advocating the love of one's next, thereby encouraging social engagement and the abolition of inequalities. Clearly these ideas don't fit into the political agenda of neoconservativism. That's why fanatical american WASP circles entertain a disdain for this religion that actually spill over to many "normal" protestants.

Originally posted by Maxwell Smart
Catholicism is, because of it being widespread in latin america, europe, africa, by essence an _international_ religion, claiming all humans equal before god, strongly advocating the love of one's next, thereby encouraging social engagement and the abolition of inequalities. Clearly these ideas don't fit into the political agenda of neoconservativism. That's why fanatical american WASP circles entertain a disdain for this religion that actually spill over to many "normal" protestants.

All human's equal before God? A statement that can make many twists and turns, depending on who is saying it. The Bible says God is no repecter of humans. Is that what that is saying? That no matter who you are or what color you are, even nationality makes no difference, if you abide with Him you are equally loved? This does not go against any conservative's beliefs that I know.

Abolish inequalities? What does that mean? Does this mean that everyone is treated equal, that evberyone has the same shot at life as the other and can either make or break it on his own merits? Sounds like one of the conservative planks on any conservative politician's platform.

What is a "neo"conservative?

As there are so many doublespeak phrases and words that may look like it means one thing but in actuality means something entirely different, I'm beginning to be careful about agreeing or disagreeing with statements but am seeking more definiotion before I decide. I think we all should be that way, examine words and see what is actually being said.

I think one has to be very careful about confusion here: is this the body of doctrines, the institutions, the behaviour of certain individuals..?
What we can say is that -if for no other reason than its size and its age- Roman Catholicism remains the yardstick against which other Christian groupings need to assess their position.

Originally posted by EPO
HELLO from james, new in this forum ( both French and Estonian citizen )!! ... this matter is also the matter about ALL WORLD BELIEFS... each "so called church" tries to teach you they ARE the only saying truth ! What a shame !

US medias lied to American people saying that GWB is "good christian baptist, born again" ... go to www.google.com... and type BUSH BOHEMIAN GROVE SKULL BONES BLOOD SATANIST ILLUMINATI ... That's real ... GW is "born again" BUT that means he shared a BLACK MESS with SKULL BONES, and the term is given to any new member of SB !!!

The only truth stands in the Bible ( most sold in so many countries, most translated ... and best unknown).
Someone did speak you about the Royal Law ? you can read it at EXODUS 20 or DEUTERONOMY 5 ...
groups.msn.com...

Gee, us dumb Americans, so long without the media; we now believe everything they say......
.......Bush is Methodist, not Baptist.
Who are you to challenge a conversion experience?
The Bush - bashing thread is over there>>>>> anyways....

Originally posted by Estragon
I think one has to be very careful about confusion here: is this the body of doctrines, the institutions, the behaviour of certain individuals..?
What we can say is that -if for no other reason than its size and its age- Roman Catholicism remains the yardstick against which other Christian groupings need to assess their position.

With his fine grasp and application of language skills, Estragon has defined the very point that I have tryed to.And with only one post.

Originally posted by Estragon
I think one has to be very careful about confusion here: is this the body of doctrines, the institutions, the behaviour of certain individuals..?
What we can say is that -if for no other reason than its size and its age- Roman Catholicism remains the yardstick against which other Christian groupings need to assess their position.

"Roman Catholicism remains a yardstick against which other Christian groupings need to assess their position"...........huh? Your 100% certain of that? Your basing this conclusion on your own beliefs and interpretations or what? Is this because the Catholic church is the largest marketer of God or something? Please, be assurd, that "other religious groups" have no need to measure up to the "yardstick" of the Catholic Church....thats proven on a daily basis, is it not? The Catholic Church can maintain and entertain any belief, which she certainly does, that she fells in respect to "other religious groupings"....I have no problem with that belief...she does already so claim that she is the "heart and soul" of Christian faith and belief today. Big deal........and I guess this means because she holds this belief and position that it makes her the "voice" and "example" to all others? Certainly God works far beyond the mere beliefs and position of the Catholic Church.......just as when Christ died.....the temple veil was rent in two..............representing that Man had no need of a "middle man" anymore to obtain salvation, forgivenes, etc. to God............BUT yet, the leading authority of the "other relgious groupings"...the Roman Catholic Church....still requires that one go to a priest for repenting of sins and forgiveness, etc., etc.! Hello?!?

Again........your point is? The Catholic Church is far from being the "voice" of God here on Earth, let alone being an example. You, as well as others, can back this conclusion all you wish, but it adds no crediability to your claim nor to the Catholic Church, be assurd of it.

Christians are denomination-LESS, God is their religion, His Word is the guiding Truth, and that Truth will set you free.........through the power and grace of God. It is His Word alone that guides me and should be guiding you.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by FreeMason]

Originally posted by Pyros
This has puzzled me for some time. Why is there so much anti-Catholicism in the western world?

Because now that the working man can read and write and is allowed to read the bible, Catholicism stands out as nothing but a whore and a war criminal. The church has little or nothing in common with the original ways which were Judaism. Instead, when the RCC started the decay, they killed and persued everyone that kept the old ways, who honoured God with keeping the Sabbath and Passover according to the Law, who didn't keep idols and who didn't celebrate and worship angels, hethen gods and mortal men and women. If you find it strange, then start reading the bible and study the the Law and the ways of the old. I too want to get away from the Law, but it has to be done when it shall be done, when Heaven and Earth fade away, when God comes back.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by mikromarius
Because now that the working man can read and write and is allowed to read the bible, Catholicism stands out as nothing but a whore and a war criminal. The church has little or nothing in common with the original ways which were Judaism. Instead, when the RCC started the decay, they killed and persued everyone that kept the old ways, who honoured God with keeping the Sabbath and Passover according to the Law, who didn't keep idols and who didn't celebrate and worship angels, hethen gods and mortal men and women. If you find it strange, then start reading the bible and study the the Law and the ways of the old. I too want to get away from the Law, but it has to be done when it shall be done, when Heaven and Earth fade away, when God comes back.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Jesus changed many rules brought in old testament. And things you said about catholic church are not true, it is only your opinion based on some nonsense, only God knows where did you heard that.

Jesus promised church will be led by the Holy Spirit, truth, and will not allow it to be demised and you are calling Jesus a liar?
All churches but catholic have denied some parts of bible to accomodate their own views.

It is fascinating that because bible is big and diverse book, noone cares to examine it completely, and they don't bother to study bible because they fear it will prove them false. This is a sad fact.


[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Megaquad]

Originally posted by Megaquad

Originally posted by mikromarius
Because now that the working man can read and write and is allowed to read the bible, Catholicism stands out as nothing but a whore and a war criminal. The church has little or nothing in common with the original ways which were Judaism. Instead, when the RCC started the decay, they killed and persued everyone that kept the old ways, who honoured God with keeping the Sabbath and Passover according to the Law, who didn't keep idols and who didn't celebrate and worship angels, hethen gods and mortal men and women. If you find it strange, then start reading the bible and study the the Law and the ways of the old. I too want to get away from the Law, but it has to be done when it shall be done, when Heaven and Earth fade away, when God comes back.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Jesus changed many rules brought in old testament. And things you said about catholic church are not true, it is only your opinion based on some nonsense, only God knows where did you heard that.

Jesus promised church will be led by Holy Spirit and will not allow it to be demised and you are calling Jesus a liar?
All churches but catholic have denied some parts of bible to accomodate their own views.

Excuse me?!?!?! "All churches BUT catholic have denied some parts of the Bible to accomodate their own views." Huh!?

I'm biting my tongue so hard to not say what I really want to say.........but I will say this: That is a flat out, hypocritical lie....and that comes from a former Catholic member..........

I am NOT going to get into a spazzed out confrontation over this but Mega......you are seriously pushing the envelope with that comment!

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Megaquad
Jesus changed many rules brought in old testament.

Not a single one. When did Jesus ever do that? The only thing he did was to (after his death and ressurection) open the doors to Heaven for the non-Jewish believers, the gentilles. When Jesus showed Peter his sign in Jaffa, he simply said that now you the believer can eat any animal if your faith is strong enough, both the clean and unclean, but the essence in that vision is that now also the gentiles may receive the Spirit of Truth and be incorporated in the Ecclesia, the congregation under God. He never told us to worship icons (idols) and kiss the feet of statues (idols), or pray to the dead ("saints") or angelic beings and hethen gods (Sol Victvs was honoured every year at 25th of December by emperor Constantine until he was baptised right before his death). The only order in the Catholic system that carries out Christ's message and life in faith and acts are the Fransiscans (blessed be Fransis of Asissi before the face of God), except they are not allowed to marry -- marriage is the very core in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, him who sits at the throne in Heaven. Many of his most important parables is shaped in the Jewish marital traditions' cloathes.

And things you said about catholic church are not true, it is only your opinion based on some nonsense, only God knows where did you heard that.

BS. Which part is not true? Everything I've said can be read and understood if you would just open your eyes and read a little history, study ethymology and Jewish culture and in-Christ history, together with enough knowledge about the early heathen traditions of Europe and the Middle East to smell the rat in the ways of Roman Universalism.

Jesus promised church will be led by the Holy Spirit, truth, and will not allow it to be demised and you are calling Jesus a liar?
All churches but catholic have denied some parts of bible to accomodate their own views.

Ha ha. This only show that you're spiritually inbred

Jesus never promised the church anything. Where in the bible is the word Kyrios ever used to discribe the Ecclesia? Nowhere. I've never called Jesus a liar. But the kyrios has and acts it out so it seems right to the guillable and the slow. The kyrios is nothing but a wolf in sheeps cloathing, seeking to devour the ecclesia by removing their right to have children and raise their children in the correct faith. The Norwegian word for Church is Kirke and follows the same ethymology as English on the word. Strange that this exact word is also the very name of a Greek goddess connected to Troy..... They have made Jesus into a Babylonian liar, for Jesus says that the Law shall stand unchanged until Heaven and Earth passes away, not even an iota (the least among the letters in the Greek alphabet) should be abolished, the kyrios has acted as someone who destroys the old ways and the Law.

It is fascinating that because bible is big and diverse book, noone cares to examine it completely, and they don't bother to study bible because they fear it will prove them false. This is a sad fact.

You amaze me!

Now tell me what Jesus said about the Law. Tell me how he ever in his life broke it. Tell me exactly where in the cermon on the mount that Jesus says the Law is abolished and should be concidered obsolete. On the contrary Jesus is the Law, the Scriptures and the Prophets. Jesus said that every sound in the Law is about him. Now why has the church departed from the Law?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

[Edited on 13-7-2003 by mikromarius]

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by Megaquad
Jesus changed many rules brought in old testament.

Not a single one. When did Jesus ever do that? The only thing he did was to (after his death and ressurection) open the doors to Heaven for the non-Jewish believers, the gentilles. When Jesus showed Peter his sign in Jaffa, he simply said that now you the believer can eat any animal if your faith is strong enough, both the clean and unclean, but the essence in that vision is that now also the gentiles may receive the Spirit of Truth and be incorporated in the Ecclesia, the congregation under God. He never told us to worship icons (idols) and kiss the feet of statues (idols), or pray to the dead ("saints") or angelic beings and hethen gods (Sol Victvs was honoured every year at 25th of December by emperor Constantine until he was baptised right before his death). The only order in the Catholic system that carries out Christ's message and life in faith and acts are the Fransiscans (blessed be Fransis of Asissi before the face of God), except they are not allowed to marry -- marriage is the very core in the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, him who sits at the throne in Heaven. Many of his most important parables is shaped in the Jewish marital traditions' cloathes.

You are full of pride and false confidence in your false theories, God surely wont reveal himself to such people.
Remember God hates nothing more than pride and Lucifer fell down because of it.

Psalm 31:23
Love the LORD, all his saints! The LORD preserves the faithful, but the proud he pays back in full."

Catholics are not 'worshipping' saints but full of love and respect to them because they avoided sin and became holy, and also asking them to pray for us, because their prayers are very powerful in front of God.
Also, I think you have trouble with definition of statues and 'idols' with such matters, let it be clear God's saints are surely not idols.

Some people have posters of their favorite musicians, sport players etc., and catholics have icons of saints because they want to please God like those saints did, they want to live like they did, and they want to ask saints to pray for them to God.

Also, you fail to understand that you can't take everything in bible literally, it takes simpleness and Holy Spirit to decode some parables and sentences in bible.

Who are you to determine that Fransiscans are only valid order in Catholic church? Very absurd.
Perhaps the problem is within you and you are the one deceived.

As for allowing priests to marry read this:

1 Cor 7:32
I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife--and his interests are divided.
Read bottom of my post about old testament.

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by Megaquad
And things you said about catholic church are not true, it is only your opinion based on some nonsense, only God knows where did you heard that.

BS. Which part is not true? Everything I've said can be read and understood if you would just open your eyes and read a little history, study ethymology and Jewish culture and in-Christ history, together with enough knowledge about the early heathen traditions of Europe and the Middle East to smell the rat in the ways of Roman Universalism.

My point is, you can't change canon like that because it was made backed up with evidences and led by Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by Megaquad
Jesus promised church will be led by the Holy Spirit, truth, and will not allow it to be demised and you are calling Jesus a liar?
All churches but catholic have denied some parts of bible to accomodate their own views.

Ha ha. This only show that you're spiritually inbred

Jesus never promised the church anything.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

It is obviously that God wants that church exists and serves him for his people. (Jesus told Peter: feed my lambs) Because of Spirit of truth, church cannot make such mistakes as you described.

They have made Jesus into a Babylonian liar, for Jesus says that the Law shall stand unchanged until Heaven and Earth passes away, not even an iota (the least among the letters in the Greek alphabet) should be abolished, the kyrios has acted as someone who destroys the old ways and the Law.

It's ironic you have made Jesus into a liar.

Originally posted by mikromarius

Originally posted by Megaquad
It is fascinating that because bible is big and diverse book, noone cares to examine it completely, and they don't bother to study bible because they fear it will prove them false. This is a sad fact.

You amaze me!

Now tell me what Jesus said about the Law. Tell me how he ever in his life broke it. Tell me exactly where in the cermon on the mount that Jesus says the Law is abolished and should be concidered obsolete. On the contrary Jesus is the Law, the Scriptures and the Prophets. Jesus said that every sound in the Law is about him. Now why has the church departed from the Law?
[Edited on 13-7-2003 by mikromarius]

You are exaggerating, sorry if you misunderstood but I never said that anything in old testament became obsolete. I am saying this:

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

Old testament was not always peaceful to enemies of God's people, Jesus assured that we love our enemies.
Jesus opened new era with his sacrifice, this is kind of change I am talking about, he fulfilled many old testament prophecies now we don't have to wait for those to happen, again I am not talking about making old testament obsolete!

Matthew 22:36
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Megaquad
Jesus promised church will be led by Holy Spirit and will not allow it to be demised and you are calling Jesus a liar?
All churches but catholic have denied some parts of bible to accomodate their own views.

Excuse me?!?!?! "All churches BUT catholic have denied some parts of the Bible to accomodate their own views." Huh!?

I'm biting my tongue so hard to not say what I really want to say.........but I will say this: That is a flat out, hypocritical lie....and that comes from a former Catholic member..........

I am NOT going to get into a spazzed out confrontation over this but Mega......you are seriously pushing the envelope with that comment!

Oh really? Tell me, how exactly did catholic church abused parts of bible for its views?
I have yet to see any teachings of some fraction that came out from catholicism which can't be easily debunked by studying christianity and bible with common sense and logic.

Bring out some examples.
I am tired of ignorant spitting on catholic church from people who don't know whose toys they are, it has gone too far!!
As for its mistakes, even though catholic church asked for forgiveness, hypocrites still dare to accuse it!
It's like saying that all present Germans are cruel nazi criminals!

But Jesus said this:

1 Corinthians 11:24
This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Which is the only church has right and is able to give body of Jesus to people? Catholic of course, but its easier to deny that quote above was ever said, now if you are a christian denying that quote and not going to Holy Mass than you claim that God's request is false (along with the bigger part, if not almost entire new testament) - simple as that.