What if.

a reply to: IAMTAT

Sure wouldn't, which is why I have unequivocally and repeatedly stated I am against UBI. Including long before any of this mess, and long before folks like Yang popularized it.

I wanted a cold critique to see if I had missed something.

Hell, the stuff I tried to bring to market was intended to replace assistance programs altogether, specifically without currency (for a plethora of reasons). The biggest "pro" was that it could all also be useful to anyone and everyone. Like a hammer and a nail.

Not only am I against a UBI, and most assistance programs as they stand, I with-held the vast majority of my work in part because of concerns about market destabilization. Now though, Im beginning to question the wisdom my decision.

Currency is representative, and only useful as such. Fiddle with it too much, and its Very Bad. Tools directly create part of what currency represents. Fiddle with it endlessly, and *good* things can pop out.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yup, I totally hear ya.

I happen to think its possible to achieve both benefit to the individual and benefit to society, while also meeting basic needs for anyone that needs or wants it.

I dont believe it has been possible until relatively recently, however. And, it seems like many things nowadays, everything is framed in a duplicitous way that makes something that will be extremely detrimental seem like the "only" solution (like UBI and essentially everything the "left" fights for now). Naturally, if one doesnt like that so-called "only" solution, we hate fuzzy bunnies or some such.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: scraedtosleep

I think everyone should be given 10 million dollars at birth so they never have to work again.


Ahhhh. . . . paradise!

I would have blown that by the time I was 15 lol

Then by the time I was 20 I would have realized that I made a grave mistake haha

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets
I'm fine with UBI. Just so long as anyone on it agrees to be tazed 3 times a year and a government TV station is created that airs the tazings 24hrs a day.

I get tazed on a regular basis. It's not that bad.

And yes it's the 500,000V kind of tazed not the baby stuff.

This was an absolute chore to read through.

A bunch of what if, what, what if, and fiat, fiat, fiat.

Anyone who actually wants a UBI are most likely the kind of people who failed to leave the nest and for whatever reason failed to become a productive adult human being. It just sounds to me a lot of people want the government to act as a parental figure and hold their hand and tell them what they can and can't do, and make everything fair, and give them a monthly allowance.

Meh, whatever. The same people complaining about capitalism now will be complaining even if UBI becomes a thing and they realize that all the cool stuff they wamt is even more expensive and that the rich are still vastly richer and have vastly nicer lives regardless of whatever economic practices are put into place.

Just came across this quote and it made me think about this thread...

The world has enough for everyones need but not for everyones greed.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

So when many businesses don't come back from the Wuhan and even more jobs are automated, what will all those people out of jobs do to make ends meet? Is it their problem they lost a job to this pandemic or to automation?

From your screen name I would guess you don't think automation is going to take away many jobs. Most experts disagree with that and the Pandemic is going to and has already destroyed many more jobs.

What's your solution to all of this?

Not saying UBI is the Ultimate Solution, but at least it's proponents are proactive rather than reactive to the looming problem.

Let's hear your proposals to deal with these issues.

Thought some of you might find this old film interesting. Guy Debord, The Society of the Spectacle
Its subtitled and long but its kind of interesting.
I guess a summary would be that relations between commodities have replaced relations between people. It's described as a work of philosophy and Marxist critical theory. I just thought it was interesting with all the implications of possible changes ahead.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: AutomateThis1

So when many businesses don't come back from the Wuhan and even more jobs are automated, what will all those people out of jobs do to make ends meet? Is it their problem they lost a job to this pandemic or to automation?

From your screen name I would guess you don't think automation is going to take away many jobs. Most experts disagree with that and the Pandemic is going to and has already destroyed many more jobs.

What's your solution to all of this?

Not saying UBI is the Ultimate Solution, but at least it's proponents are proactive rather than reactive to the looming problem.

Let's hear your proposals to deal with these issues.

That's quite some conjecture going on there.

And I'm good. You're just trolling for an argument. Lmao My solution? I don't hold that job title.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

Not an argument...a discussion. There is a difference.

When you won't even offer other ideas, it makes progress on things go slower.

Talking about such topics is how ideas get implemented.


You have a good day.

a reply to: pavil

In some ways, you are contributing to that which you decry.

I find myself doing it too, fwiw.

I think we essentially have two choices; decentralization and self-determination ..versus.. corporate control and levels of dependence the world has never seen before.

Solely talking about currency may be little more than a distraction to prevent the discussion of what that currency represents. I think its going to be full-blown corporate control of every aspect of our lives. Or.. Using the same tools and technology within a different paradigm to achieve decentralization and independence.

I really dont think there is a middle ground here, at least not anymore. They are pushing corporate control hard now.

a reply to: Serdgiam

We all need to keep trying.

Does anyone here think those in power will willingly give up this power and wealth.

We need to keep talking and figure out common ground.

There's a Tsunami coming and we have time to minimize it's damage.

I want to find common ground that we can all get behind. It's the only way this works optimally, by getting buy-in from all sides of the political spectrum.

I know it's chasing windmills.

a reply to: pavil

It might be tilting at windmills.. But maybe not.

Ive been trying for so long, I dont think I know how to do anything else So, Ill keep on keepin on.

My own efforts were to share some of my technology, alongside just.. trying to be the best person I can be. Ive been thinking about my grandfather a lot recently, and my dad (both passed on). One of the things they both taught me was a metaphor: If an airplane starts to go down, and the masks drop, fit yours first before others. BUT, if you can figure out how to fit yours at the *same time* as everyone else's.. Do that instead and do not hesitate.

Its something that has shaped my thinking in ways I never even really noticed.

I dont think we have the luxury of examining it all through paradigms that have been outdated for years though. Im also willing to consider Im simply wrong about some things, which seems to be borderline Heresy nowadays.

One of the parts thats sad to me is that this "Corporate Utopia" we are marching towards will be an inferior system even to those who believe they will benefit most.

a reply to: Serdgiam

might be tilting at windmills.. But maybe not.

I know the feeling. Imagine being a Conservative Trump supporter spouting such things.......

a reply to: pavil

Not true. Even if I were to discuss what I think viable solutions would be it wouldn't make a difference. I'm in no position to be implementing changes on a national level.

The reality of it is that we could, as some people do, spend all day on here talking about economics and politics and that wouod be all it is.

People need to get real and understand that they can say "We should do..." or "My solution is..." and aren't in a position to actually put those plans into action it is just opinion.

I saw it all the time when I used to go to rallies and protests. I still see it when I watch the streams of such events. People holding signs and spouting disconbobulated calls of "My solution is..."

I'm sorry but your solution doesn't mean a thing whether you're on a street with a sign shouting or sitting on your phone or at a PC.The only way your solution has any weight is if you have an actual way of implementing it.

Therefore, even if I were to entertain you with a discussion of what I think we should do it would just end up being another exercise of armchair opinions.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: Serdgiam

might be tilting at windmills.. But maybe not.

I know the feeling. Imagine being a Conservative Trump supporter spouting such things.......

And these types of statements are what hinder finding common ground. This kind of statement is akin to finding reason not to have an honest discussion with someone based solely on the reasoning that someone considers themselves a conservative and a Trump supporter.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

I don't know how you got that out of my statement. I merely mention that because support for UBI isn't something usually associated with the stances of someone on my side.

We need to figure out ways to bring sides together on such issues. It can be done. Probably much slower than I want, but it can be done.

Sorry I've upset you.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

No, UBI doesn't factor in because it's a fool's errand, as I said several times above. The US must never subject it's citizens to that type of charade that would purely be used as an excuse to charge more for everything as well as tax people more.

I oppose the concept of creating additional revenue for the government. The government should be brought to heel entirely, their operating budget should be eviscerated on all levels (local, state, and federal). The plan I'm talking about goes a long way towards achieving that. No more welfare, no UBI, no more net payouts from the IRS to people in excess of what they paid in... all of it goes away. You either earn it for yourself or you go without, period.

The vast majority of Americans would benefit from seeing less stolen from their paychecks to fund redistribution scams politicians use to get themselves extra support at election time. I think it would be high enlightening to see just how few politicians remain in office if their kickbacks and dowry payments of other Americans' earnings back to their voter bases ended.

You are totally brainwashed by the system.

Good luck in your capitalist world when full automation takes over.

...thus the reason I put myself through college for a degree in an industry that isn't going to be automated. It sounds like you need to vent face-to-face at the person responsible for your pre-Coronavirus economic predicament... do you have access to a mirror?

Lol, you know nothing about my circumstances and just assume I am struggling in life.

Typical capitalist view. Keep on keeping on.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

No, UBI doesn't factor in because it's a fool's errand, as I said several times above. The US must never subject it's citizens to that type of charade that would purely be used as an excuse to charge more for everything as well as tax people more.

I oppose the concept of creating additional revenue for the government. The government should be brought to heel entirely, their operating budget should be eviscerated on all levels (local, state, and federal). The plan I'm talking about goes a long way towards achieving that. No more welfare, no UBI, no more net payouts from the IRS to people in excess of what they paid in... all of it goes away. You either earn it for yourself or you go without, period.

The vast majority of Americans would benefit from seeing less stolen from their paychecks to fund redistribution scams politicians use to get themselves extra support at election time. I think it would be high enlightening to see just how few politicians remain in office if their kickbacks and dowry payments of other Americans' earnings back to their voter bases ended.

You are totally brainwashed by the system.

Good luck in your capitalist world when full automation takes over.

...thus the reason I put myself through college for a degree in an industry that isn't going to be automated. It sounds like you need to vent face-to-face at the person responsible for your pre-Coronavirus economic predicament... do you have access to a mirror?

Lol, you know nothing about my circumstances and just assume I am struggling in life.

Typical capitalist view. Keep on keeping on.

It's a safe assumption considering only a fool would seek to punch themself in the face. If you're railing against capitalism and living in a capitalist country (you're claiming UK, so you are) I'm left assuming you're either in an economic predicament which you blame on capitalism or you're one of those fools sitting in the corner delivering self nut shots and quart blows to your own nose. Your response to me makes me hope you at least have access to some ice packs, because you seem to need them.

I am not an economic whiz by any means.

That said, when I was a police officer I made a little over $2000 (USD) a month.

I realize that money should not be the prime motivation for such a career, however, if UBI gave me $2000 a month I would have walked off the job in a heartbeat.

With confidence I can say most police officers would.

So like some of the of the posters asked before, who would pick up the garbage, stock the grocery shelves, wait tables, etc?