What if.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I've spent my life basically living by the words of Dennis Leary
Life sucks, get a helmet
We all deal with struggles and challenges, those who rise to the occasion shouldn't be held back, but similarly those who cannot rise to the occasion shouldn't hold the rest of us back. Not directed at you personally, but in general, a lot of people will only put forth the effort required for them to get by... programs that lower the bar of effort expected do nothing to strengthen the species or the individual and instead allow people to wallow in their own excuses with little personal cost to them, simply shifting those natural costs off to the rest of society who have higher bars for themselves.

a reply to: FauxMulder

I have been on UBI 11 years now and I love it. Thank you. I hope it's still around for these younger generations to benefit from their UBI their children will be paying for, like I am. It'l be a fabulous ponzi scheme if it works.

a reply to: scraedtosleep
Doesn't that diminish the value of every wage earner who actually works for anything above the ubi?

Talk about further eroding the middle classes!!!!!!

a reply to: IAMTAT

...you must agree taxpayers should ALSO be allowed to 'opt out' of having their taxes paying for free abortions & free healthcare for illegals...in exchange for not personally benefitting from them.

I do.
But that's not the what this thread is about.
If you want to talk about that start your own thread.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life can be whatever we make it. There is no such thing as that just how it is.

We just have to be brave and try.

Trying new things will lead us to were we need to be.
Otherwise we're just stuck in the past.

Oh no the economy, only free markets can save us!!

That worked well in 2008, so it’s bound to do well under this unprecedented crisis........not!!

Capatilism won’t save you, neither will you save capitalism when the SHTF, so get a grip, do what you need to do and when all jobs are automated, just accept that a Universal Income is the most sensible option. Whether it’s $ or credits, if we all agree this is the acccptable currency, then so be it.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You say that while every problem we're presently seeing with the economy has entirely been caused by a major series of artificial restrictions, manipulations, and shutterings of the free market. The free market didn't sort businesses and jobs by "essential" and "non-essential." Capitalism didn't order people to remain shut in their homes like frightened slaves. Free market capitalism didn't create this, fascism did and fascism is a by product of socialism.

I don't know if UBI is the solution but the greatest concentration of wealth in the world in this Country is held by a relatively few people. That we can't experiment with UBI or other things to make life better for the vast majority of Americans seems to ignore the plight of those Americans. The richest nation on Earth can try such things.

There will still be very rich and very poor people, but a great majority of Americans would be better off with such experiments.

originally posted by: pavil
I don't know if UBI is the solution but the greatest concentration of wealth in the world in this Country is held by a relatively few people. That we can't experiment with UBI or other things to make life better for the vast majority of Americans seems to ignore the plight of those Americans. The richest nation on Earth can try such things.

There will still be very rich and very poor people, but a great majority of Americans would be better off with such experiments.

For a short time, yes. Then an equilibrium happens and those better offs quickly see their purchasing power erode. Look at what happened following the addition of women widely to the workforce in this country. For about a decade, the middle class grew and was incredibly powerful with both parents working. When that became the norm, all prices reset to then make the dual income middle class home less affluent and more mandatory for most families to even make it. So let's say we add a tax payer subsidized UBI of $12000 a year to the equation. Initially, that would see recipients with added purchasing power, but fairly quickly rent would go up by several hundred dollars a month everywhere, consumable goods would increase equally in price, utilities, local governments would increase taxes to claim their stolen chunk of your earnings, and before long we would be right back at this point with you whining about how hard it is to make it work and the UBI needs to increase yet again.

The only fair solution is to place 100% of the onus on each individual's shoulders, PERIOD, and accept the fact that in life there are winners and losers. Those who can, do, those who can't, get left behind and have nobody to blame but themselves for it. Go to a nationwide flat tax and allow supply and demand to govern all market prices. Basic fact, society is full of people who will only put as much effort in as it takes to squeak by... that's entirely on them. Similarly, society has a percentage who refuse to even do enough to squeak by... too bad, so sad, they can depend on either charity or the law of nature, neither of which depends on society forcing the industrious to do more to cover their own needs alongside the needs of those refusing to provide for themselves.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

So what's your solution to this?

Keep doing what we have since 1973?

I'm willing to hear other options.


What would your flat tax cover.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

So what's your solution to this?

Keep doing what we have since 1973?

I'm willing to hear other options.

I said my solution. Flat tax. As for present situations, lift the goddamn restrictions immediately and let the nation go back to work.

ETA: The flat tax would cover all earnings presently taxed, but would not have a lower end limit and would potentially have 2 scales. 7% flat tax on all earnings up to $200,000 per year, 15% thereafter. No exemptions, no rebates, none of that. If you made $10,000 last year, you'd pay $700 of that in taxes. If someone made $1 million, they'd pay $134,000 in taxes. No more estate taxes and capital gains are taxed at the same rate as earnings (but no more loss write-offs so that would balance itself out nicely). Also pass a federal law capping, nationwide, state and local income taxes and property taxes. Force the government to live within their means the same as they're forcing Americans to do the same.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

No, UBI doesn't factor in because it's a fool's errand, as I said several times above. The US must never subject it's citizens to that type of charade that would purely be used as an excuse to charge more for everything as well as tax people more.

I oppose the concept of creating additional revenue for the government. The government should be brought to heel entirely, their operating budget should be eviscerated on all levels (local, state, and federal). The plan I'm talking about goes a long way towards achieving that. No more welfare, no UBI, no more net payouts from the IRS to people in excess of what they paid in... all of it goes away. You either earn it for yourself or you go without, period.

The vast majority of Americans would benefit from seeing less stolen from their paychecks to fund redistribution scams politicians use to get themselves extra support at election time. I think it would be high enlightening to see just how few politicians remain in office if their kickbacks and dowry payments of other Americans' earnings back to their voter bases ended.

a reply to: burdman30ott6
Don't know.....sounds about as much of a dream as UBI.

All I know is the current system could be better and we all need to try and do that.

Good talking about this.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You say that while every problem we're presently seeing with the economy has entirely been caused by a major series of artificial restrictions, manipulations, and shutterings of the free market. The free market didn't sort businesses and jobs by "essential" and "non-essential." Capitalism didn't order people to remain shut in their homes like frightened slaves. Free market capitalism didn't create this, fascism did and fascism is a by product of socialism.

Capitalism destroyed the economy in 2008, it is killing the economy now, but sure, you believe what you want. The economy is capitalism. My goodness Americans and Tories are so blinded by their shortsightedness.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

No, UBI doesn't factor in because it's a fool's errand, as I said several times above. The US must never subject it's citizens to that type of charade that would purely be used as an excuse to charge more for everything as well as tax people more.

I oppose the concept of creating additional revenue for the government. The government should be brought to heel entirely, their operating budget should be eviscerated on all levels (local, state, and federal). The plan I'm talking about goes a long way towards achieving that. No more welfare, no UBI, no more net payouts from the IRS to people in excess of what they paid in... all of it goes away. You either earn it for yourself or you go without, period.

The vast majority of Americans would benefit from seeing less stolen from their paychecks to fund redistribution scams politicians use to get themselves extra support at election time. I think it would be high enlightening to see just how few politicians remain in office if their kickbacks and dowry payments of other Americans' earnings back to their voter bases ended.

You are totally brainwashed by the system.

Good luck in your capitalist world when full automation takes over.

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: pavil
a reply to: burdman30ott6

How much additional revenue would the flat tax create? What would the flat tax be used for to benefit the vast majority of Americans.

That might be part of the equation to fund such things as UBI or Universal Healthcare ect.

There will have to be ways to pay for such things.

Yang has actually fleshed out such details. It's not perfect , but it's a start.

No, UBI doesn't factor in because it's a fool's errand, as I said several times above. The US must never subject it's citizens to that type of charade that would purely be used as an excuse to charge more for everything as well as tax people more.

I oppose the concept of creating additional revenue for the government. The government should be brought to heel entirely, their operating budget should be eviscerated on all levels (local, state, and federal). The plan I'm talking about goes a long way towards achieving that. No more welfare, no UBI, no more net payouts from the IRS to people in excess of what they paid in... all of it goes away. You either earn it for yourself or you go without, period.

The vast majority of Americans would benefit from seeing less stolen from their paychecks to fund redistribution scams politicians use to get themselves extra support at election time. I think it would be high enlightening to see just how few politicians remain in office if their kickbacks and dowry payments of other Americans' earnings back to their voter bases ended.

You are totally brainwashed by the system.

Good luck in your capitalist world when full automation takes over.

...thus the reason I put myself through college for a degree in an industry that isn't going to be automated. It sounds like you need to vent face-to-face at the person responsible for your pre-Coronavirus economic predicament... do you have access to a mirror?

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You say that while every problem we're presently seeing with the economy has entirely been caused by a major series of artificial restrictions, manipulations, and shutterings of the free market. The free market didn't sort businesses and jobs by "essential" and "non-essential." Capitalism didn't order people to remain shut in their homes like frightened slaves. Free market capitalism didn't create this, fascism did and fascism is a by product of socialism.

Capitalism destroyed the economy in 2008, it is killing the economy now, but sure, you believe what you want. The economy is capitalism. My goodness Americans and Tories are so blinded by their shortsightedness.

Subsidization, the exact opposite of capitalism, destroyed the economy in 2008... too many people who wouldn't have been able to afford their own homes or their purchases in absence of government programs geared towards using tax dollars to secure home loans for people who never should have been approved under their then current financial situations further exaccerbated by the injection of corporate socialism in the form of bailouts which free market capitalism DEMANDS be allowed to swim or sink on their own merits.

Capitalism works, but the futzed with bastardization of it that has embraced elements of socialism and welfare (both citizen and corporate) are destined to fail. The only rational solution is to crush socialism and welfare wherever it is found and embrace pure capitalism, free market on the national level only.

a reply to: DontTreadOnMe

Does it have to?
Can it be done in such a way that doesn't? Or at least only diminishes it as fast as the current system.
How fast does the current system diminish wages and erode the middle class?

a reply to: scraedtosleep

The current system doesn't diminish wages, it escalates subsidies and handouts, which is what has crushed the middle class as we're the ones who shoulder the brunt of the cost of those subsidies and handouts.