Hell / Sheol / Hades - Saved or Lost?

a reply to: Deetermined

I don’t believe in universalism personally, nor do I believe in eternal condemnation for humanity

If you read the bible there is plenty of scope for both positions within christian theology, to deny the possibility is pure and utter ignorance and arrogance combined

You should stop parroting your mum and dad or minister and study the theology for yourself.
Understand it and make a decision based on your own understanding not another’s understanding forced on you because you are to lazy to put in any effort

I don’t believe in universalism but I accept and understand the reasoning and argument, also eternal damnation, but again disagree

Are you smarter than Oregon? Hardly
These listed other Christian believers in Jesus ? Hardly

www.tentmaker.org...

If you want to argue theology, don’t use bullishness and arrogance, it’s not a fruit of the Spirit

Hell is the common grave, the concept of eternal torment with purgatory before that, was/is a dogma to control and scare the masses into subservience to the ruling religious class.

Because many Hebrew and Greek words that mean something totally different; has lead to the perception of hell that is wrong and has been following Christianity for centuries.

It's mistranslated on purpose, to fool people.

Laz agrees completely. "Hell" is a made-up place to keep the pews and the offering plates full. Dogma is formulated to prevent anyone from thinking for themselves. Sadly, many people defend Hell as if it were their god, offering up a few poorly-rendered verses as proof.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Laz agrees completely. "Hell" is a made-up place to keep the pews and the offering plates full. Dogma is formulated to prevent anyone from thinking for themselves. Sadly, many people defend Hell as if it were their god, offering up a few poorly-rendered verses as proof.

Not exactly 'made up'. A group of like minded people can create the oddest things if so inclined (hell idea reinforcement not on the recommended list).

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Laz agrees completely. "Hell" is a made-up place to keep the pews and the offering plates full. Dogma is formulated to prevent anyone from thinking for themselves. Sadly, many people defend Hell as if it were their god, offering up a few poorly-rendered verses as proof.

Not exactly 'made up'. A group of like minded people can create the oddest things if so inclined (hell idea reinforcement not on the recommended list).

Exactly - so according to you, a bunch of people propose Hell...and it pops into existence?

Yes, that's the whole problem. On the other hand, God, nowhere in the Scriptures, claims to have created Hell. The idea can always be traced back to paganism.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Hell is the common grave, the concept of eternal torment with purgatory before that, was/is a dogma to control and scare the masses into subservience to the ruling religious class. Because many Hebrew and Greek words that mean something totally different; has lead to the perception of hell that is wrong and has been following Christianity for centuries. It's mistranslated on purpose, to fool people.

1611 KJV bible - How could you know that hell is mistranslated on purpose? Hell Is found twenty three times and in seven letters of the NT with not one word of a purgatory. Hell is found thirty one times in ten books of the OT. This means that the entire bible has been deliberately mistranslated. But that is not all . It also would mean that the Greek MSS that were used in the translations were also tampered with. Do you actually believe that out of over 5,000 NT MSS any one or group of people could pull that sham off?

We have hundreds of translations of the same MSS so that would mean that hundreds of translators over hundreds of years deliberately forged their translations to keep people dumbed down. And most all of these forged scriptures say the same thing. That is amazing. And you believe that?

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
Laz agrees completely. "Hell" is a made-up place to keep the pews and the offering plates full. Dogma is formulated to prevent anyone from thinking for themselves. Sadly, many people defend Hell as if it were their god, offering up a few poorly-rendered verses as proof.

Not exactly 'made up'. A group of like minded people can create the oddest things if so inclined (hell idea reinforcement not on the recommended list).

Exactly - so according to you, a bunch of people propose Hell...and it pops into existence?
Yes, that's the whole problem. On the other hand, God, nowhere in the Scriptures, claims to have created Hell. The idea can always be traced back to paganism.

YES. The human being is an individualized Creator God. It has much power (there are those not wishing you to understand that and are in the business to take all of your possessions). Purgatory is uncertainty regarding afterlife; Hell is condemnation determined by others (The Catholic Church) using fear tactics to keep you in line. You created the idea of Hell for the Catholic Church; (I am certain their are other Dogmas using the Hell tool you created) to punish you.

a reply to: Seede

You need to research Sheol and Hades in both Hebrew and Greek.
Gehenna as well.

If you are truly interested in learning about it all, read this -Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible
ATS LINK

I clicked the link, and looked at the thread. It dates to before my time here, but I did my own research about 2014-2015 and also concluded that "Hell" is non-existent. I call it a 404.

Well done, Blue Jay!

Bye the bye, I have lately found that so-called "hellfire" is actually Godfire. Fire is associated, time after time, with fire in the Scriptures.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

You need to research Sheol and Hades in both Hebrew and Greek. Gehenna as well.

I have and it is not as you have understood. You cite much but are confused in that which you believe. Sheol came to be understood by the Sumerian Hebrews as the various depths of the underworld. This morphed into the belief of some [not all] of the Hebrews as two distinct places. One is the surface earth [grave] to cover the terrestrial bodies of the dead soul. This also morphed into the practice of the soul being placed in a vault or tomb above the earth. All dead souls were not covered with earth but some were entombed in a family vault, allowed to decompose and the bones then placed in a container of stone. Regardless of how the soul [body] was interred it was called grave. So actually only the soul [body] can be placed in a grave.

This also morphed into the Hebrew understanding that the spirit of the soul was contained in the depths of this earth in complete consciousness and held captive in one of seven various chambers of Sheol. This is mistakenly cited by most as both being called the grave but in real time the two are not the grave. Only the soul is buried by earth and called grave whereas Sheol is not the grave but is reserved as the place of the spirits of the souls.

Regardless of the posts that i have read on ATS, most all do not understand how the Sumerian Hebrews came to gradually understand death. The translators only translated to their understandings and in some cases understood completely wrong. Now without the autographs of the thousands of MSS that were used in various translations no one can word study the Greek copies that exist today. We seem to banter words of various languages from unknown sources without considering that we have the Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek literature to consider.

For those interested, I do have "Jewish Views Of The Afterlife" by Simcha Paull Raphael that would clear up most all misconceptions that most have in this matter. The proper way to study this theology is to first understand the covenant of Moses and then understand the covenant of the Jewish Jesus. One is from the Hebrew perspective and the other from the Greek perspective. Both do intertwine into one but with caution as to word play. You can obtain Simcha Paull Raphael's book on internet and is a good reference book to have at hand.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

You need to research Sheol and Hades in both Hebrew and Greek. Gehenna as well.

I have and it is not as you have understood. You cite much but are confused in that which you believe. Sheol came to be understood by the Sumerian Hebrews as the various depths of the underworld. This morphed into the belief of some [not all] of the Hebrews as two distinct places. One is the surface earth [grave] to cover the terrestrial bodies of the dead soul. This also morphed into the practice of the soul being placed in a vault or tomb above the earth. All dead souls were not covered with earth but some were entombed in a family vault, allowed to decompose and the bones then placed in a container of stone. Regardless of how the soul [body] was interred it was called grave. So actually only the soul [body] can be placed in a grave.

This also morphed into the Hebrew understanding that the spirit of the soul was contained in the depths of this earth in complete consciousness and held captive in one of seven various chambers of Sheol. This is mistakenly cited by most as both being called the grave but in real time the two are not the grave. Only the soul is buried by earth and called grave whereas Sheol is not the grave but is reserved as the place of the spirits of the souls.

Regardless of the posts that i have read on ATS, most all do not understand how the Sumerian Hebrews came to gradually understand death. The translators only translated to their understandings and in some cases understood completely wrong. Now without the autographs of the thousands of MSS that were used in various translations no one can word study the Greek copies that exist today. We seem to banter words of various languages from unknown sources without considering that we have the Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek literature to consider.

For those interested, I do have "Jewish Views Of The Afterlife" by Simcha Paull Raphael that would clear up most all misconceptions that most have in this matter. The proper way to study this theology is to first understand the covenant of Moses and then understand the covenant of the Jewish Jesus. One is from the Hebrew perspective and the other from the Greek perspective. Both do intertwine into one but with caution as to word play. You can obtain Simcha Paull Raphael's book on internet and is a good reference book to have at hand.

Explain why I should give any more weight to Jewish afterlife beliefs, ancient or modern, any more than the beliefs of multitudes of damnationist believers? Truth is not, and never was, an issue determined by the majority.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
The human being is an individualized Creator God.

Yet, it is those who say there is no Hell who are accused of preaching the doctrines of devils...as I have. Tell me, where did you get such an idea?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Explain why I should give any more weight to Jewish afterlife beliefs, ancient or modern, any more than the beliefs of multitudes of damnationist believers? Truth is not, and never was, an issue determined by the majority.

If it pleases you then you should do as it pleases you. You will anyway so it is your own judgment call. I am not here to try to sell you something. Only to express my own views that I have learned from my fellow scholars. If you reject that then so be it. I can understand some of why people want facts and not speculation and I am also in need of facts. But we are not able to produce facts but only speculation based upon other people who have also had the same problem.

Theology is just that and that is why it is called theology. It does contain some speculations without evidence and it also contains much evidence that are repeatedly verified. All that scholars should be expected to do is try to sort the evidence into past theological as well as factual occurrences and then weigh the evidence to try to see their relationship. They are just as human as you are and they also are in error much of the time. So to answer your question is to repeat myself and believe as you will. That call will be proven to each one of us as we shed this terrestrial life.