Hell / Sheol / Hades - Saved or Lost?

Let me guess, that which does not become of the One, is to become void?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

In response to your first point around Hell not existing because it 'has not been created in the Cosmos'.

Sheol or Hell is the place where sinners would end up. - 'But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave [Sheol], then you will know that these people have treated the LORD with contempt (Numbers 16:30)'

Sheol or Hell is separation from God - 'Let death come upon them; let them go down alive to Sheol; for evil is in their homes and in their hearts (Psalm 55:15)'

For Great Sin - 'Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have an agreement; when the overwhelming scourge passes through it will not come to us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter" (Isaiah 28:15)'

A place from where the righteous are saved - 'But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for He will receive me. Selah (Psalm 49:15).'

'Depths of Sheol' - 'For great is Your steadfast love toward me; You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol (Psalm 86:13)'.

Location of Sheol, 'The realm of Sheol below' - 'For a fire has been kindled by My wrath, one that burns to the realm of Sheol below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains' (Deuteronomy 32:22).

'For the wise the path of life leads upward, in order to avoid Sheol below' (Proverbs 15:24).

The 'Gates of Sheol' - 'Will they go down to the gates of Sheol? Shall we have rest together in the dust? (Job 17:16).'

The Darkness of Sheol - 'If I wait for Sheol as my house, if I make my bed in the darkness (Job 17:13).'

Sheol a place of pain- 'The pains of death encompassed me, and the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow (Psalm 116:3).'

'Where even the light is like Darkness' - In line with Bill's testimony, no? - 'Before I go to the place from which I shall not return, to the land of darkness and the shadow of death. A land as dark as darkness itself, without any order, where even the light is like darkness (Job 10:22).'

People are mere shadows of themselves - 'The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you - all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones - all those who were kings over the nations. They will all respond, they will say to you, "You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us" (Isaiah 14:9,10).'

I will come back to your other points if you can discredit all of the above verses mentioning Sheol or Hell. And if you do manage to, maybe we can look at some of the other 65 times Sheol is mentioned in the Word.

Would it have been mentioned so many times if it is irrelevant? Would prophets have written about it with so much pain, if it was something to not worry about?

a reply to: HallowedEarth

65 times? Are you using a 1611 KJV? Are you a KJVO believer? No matter.

What I see in your post is that "sheol" = "hell." I have looked at my very ordinary KJV and I saw that "sheol" was rendered as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, and as "hell" the other half. Further, I saw that if context did not allow, when "sheol" was tied to the earth, it was "grave" or "pit." However, when context allowed, it was rendered as "hell." It was not completely consistent, but there you are.

I dug deeper, and found that "hell" was in the 1611 KJV twice as "hel." Later, I found that "Hel" was the Norse goddess of the afterlife, supposed ruler of "Helheim" or "House of Hel," a place you supposedly went to if you did not rate going to Valhalla.

So tell me: Is "Hel" pagan...but "Hell" is Christian? Nonsense!

Further research informed me that "hell" the word and Hell the concept both came in from paganism, while the Israelits had only sheol. Hades and all its theo-illogical baggage came in after contact with the pagan Greeks. "Hades" is similar to words from the languages of then-pagan north Europe, and remember that the classical Greeks came down from the North. We find tidbits like these:

Old English – hel
Old Frisian – helle, hille
Old Saxon – hellja, hella
Middle Dutch – helle
Old High German – helle
Old Norse – hel, heljar
Gothic – halja
Original Teutonic - halja

Back in those days, "hell" meant "hidden and covered" as a noun, and "to hide, to cover" as a verb. People still speak of "helling" fruits and veggies over the winter. But - it has been whipped up into a theo-illogical term, much like the Latin/Italian word "infernum," which meant "buried" or "under the ground." It was an innocent word, now flaming with the fires of fictional Hell.

Fictional? Yes, as the main props of Hell are Dante, Milton, Mary K Baxter and a host of other popular culture points of reference. "Hell" is an insertion from a language foreign to the languages the Bible was written in. The concept is pagan for that matter. Would you like a list of DOZENS of Bible versions without "Hell"?

Hell is a 404.

a reply to: Raggedyman

You think Paul was the devil, great I think he was amazing

funny you should say that, when i read the books credited to Paul, i don't get the feeling his words are truly coming from God/Jesus like i do in the other books and gospels. there are a few spots but most times i hear what he was before, a Pharisee, and he carried strict adherence to the law over with him. i guess being that was what his was before his conversion, old habits were hard to break even back then.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

I don’t know what you are talking about
Paul was very much against religion, very much about allowing gentiles into the faith with no expectations
Paul was Very much against the law

a reply to: Lazarus Short

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

You might want to read Matthew 25 again, specifically, Matthew 25:41. If you don't like the KJV version, here is a link to all of the other translations...

Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

www.biblegateway.com...:41

This place was "prepared" originally for the devil and his angels, but the Bible clearly states that others will be joining them in many verses throughout the Bible.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

God created free will, allowing others to decide whether or not to commit evil, both humans and angels. If you think that allowing people free will is evil in itself, I don't know what to tell you.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

All are raised from the dead and the grave to face final judgement. That's why the Bible also refers to some who will face the "second death".

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

While God is willing and able to save all, not all will accept it. Some will reject it with their free will. That's why we have it to begin with.

While 1 Corinthians 15:28 says that God will become all in all, that's only after Jesus/God has destroyed all of his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

You might want to read Matthew 25 again, specifically, Matthew 25:41. If you don't like the KJV version, here is a link to all of the other translations...

Matthew 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

www.biblegateway.com...:41

This place was "prepared" originally for the devil and his angels, but the Bible clearly states that others will be joining them in many verses throughout the Bible.

Please do a word study on "fire" and related words. Do you not realize that the Everlasting Fire is Godfire? They do not go into Hell, but into the fiery presence of God. The Lake of Fire is an outpouring of God.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

God created free will, allowing others to decide whether or not to commit evil, both humans and angels. If you think that allowing people free will is evil in itself, I don't know what to tell you.

We appear to have free will, but I suspect that from God's perspective, it's all a done deal. Nevertheless, He seemed to have been blindsided when He asked Adam and Eve, "Who told you you were naked?"

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

All are raised from the dead and the grave to face final judgement. That's why the Bible also refers to some who will face the "second death".

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

While God is willing and able to save all, not all will accept it. Some will reject it with their free will. That's why we have it to begin with.

While 1 Corinthians 15:28 says that God will become all in all, that's only after Jesus/God has destroyed all of his enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:25-28

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If God is both willing and able to save all, do you actually propose that our puny wills can affect the outcome?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Please do a word study on "fire" and related words. Do you not realize that the Everlasting Fire is Godfire? They do not go into Hell, but into the fiery presence of God. The Lake of Fire is an outpouring of God.

Sorry, but you'll never convince anyone who knows their Bible that God has an outpouring of refining fire for the Devil as the verse clearly states that all of God's enemies will be destroyed, not refined.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

We appear to have free will, but I suspect that from God's perspective, it's all a done deal. Nevertheless, He seemed to have been blindsided when He asked Adam and Eve, "Who told you you were naked?"

Seriously? I thought you were smarter than that. God knows all, even when he asks questions to people for their answers. If someone didn't know better, they would think that you hadn't been through Bible Study 101.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

If God is both willing and able to save all, do you actually propose that our puny wills can affect the outcome?

One thing God isn't willing to do is override anyone's free will. That's why God has enemies that will be destroyed, as stated in Matthew 25.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Please do a word study on "fire" and related words. Do you not realize that the Everlasting Fire is Godfire? They do not go into Hell, but into the fiery presence of God. The Lake of Fire is an outpouring of God.

Sorry, but you'll never convince anyone who knows their Bible that God has an outpouring of refining fire for the Devil as the verse clearly states that all of God's enemies will be destroyed, not refined.

That conclusion is not clear at all, unless you believe all the other badly-rendered verses about Hell. I have noted that the salvation of all has far more "proof texts" than Damnationism.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

We appear to have free will, but I suspect that from God's perspective, it's all a done deal. Nevertheless, He seemed to have been blindsided when He asked Adam and Eve, "Who told you you were naked?"

Seriously? I thought you were smarter than that. God knows all, even when he asks questions to people for their answers. If someone didn't know better, they would think that you hadn't been through Bible Study 101.

As if you really know anything about me.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Lazarus Short

If God is both willing and able to save all, do you actually propose that our puny wills can affect the outcome?

One thing God isn't willing to do is override anyone's free will. That's why God has enemies that will be destroyed, as stated in Matthew 25.

Oh? Your two statements contradict each other - to destroy His enemies, God MUST override their "free will."

originally posted by: Specimen88
Let me guess, that which does not become of the One, is to become void?

That thing (soul) is 'static'. It is not immediately recovered. It takes much experience to recombine with the 'all that is' (that is the point)
as you are the explorer experiencing by proxy Its wishes.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Oh? Your two statements contradict each other - to destroy His enemies, God MUST override their "free will."

That's a silly statement. As the Creator, we all know God has the last say, even though humans get to express their free will to accept or reject Him while they are alive. God's not going to force everyone to accept Him. If everyone was saved in the end, there would be no need for free will to begin with, nor would there be a Book of Life to record who has eternal life and who doesn't.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

That conclusion is not clear at all, unless you believe all the other badly-rendered verses about Hell. I have noted that the salvation of all has far more "proof texts" than Damnationism.

The conclusion is clear, you just choose to ignore it. All of these supposed "proof texts" that you claim you've posted are referring to certain individuals. Your Psalms is referring to one individual who believes in God, not all. Your Bible verses from Corinthians is addressed to the church in Corinthians and is addressing believers, not unbelievers. In fact, some of the verses following the verses you posted claim just the opposite, such as the one below...

1 Corinthians 3:14-17

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

By the way, don't confuse the breath of life that God gives all to the Spirit of God which is only given to believers.