The Anti-Christian conspiracy

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and ideology. wars have been fought purely over religion many times in the past.

What war was fougth purely over Christianity?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
as long as religion exists it will create yet another thing for people to argue and eventually kill each other over.

And ignore the attributes of war: money, land, politics, power and status? Why so?

I find this subject to be thread appropriate as those involved in the Anti-Christian Conspiracy also believe Christianity to be the root and sole cause of war.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
What war was fougth purely over Christianity?

And ignore the attributes of war: money, land, politics, power and status? Why so?

[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

Well, for one, the aptly named "Wars of Religion" in France....... both sides being christian.

It is impossiple to separate any one reason for war from other influences (i.e. power etc, that you mentioned). So the point of a war based solely on religion is moot, religion (or our interpretation of it) is shaped by the world around us and so is deeply influenced by non-religious factors - even simply the feeling of feeling more righteous than someone else.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
Well, for one, the aptly named "Wars of Religion" in France....... both sides being christian.

Then it isn't a war over Christianity, is it?

(I'm very familiar with what you're talking about and am asking the reader to dig deep, think about this)

My question was: What war was fought purely over Christianity? And the response was "It is impossiple to separate any one reason for war from other influences" which contradicts the previous claim that there have been wars that were fought purely over religion. Which is it?

[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Then it isn't a war over Christianity, is it?

If a war is fought between two christian sides, each with a conviction that their view is right and the other's view is blasphemy, then I think it is very much a war over christianity. The victor will have defeated the "blasphemers" and will now make it's form of christianity the official one, no doubt "endorsed by God" as He guided them to victory.

Since the nature of the conflict, in the eyes of the simple peasent soldier, is all about defending his view of christianity then this is a christian holy war. He is fighting for his religion against people who may as well be pagans.

Just a little addition in response to your edit:
While the initiators of a conflict may have alterior motives for a war (again money, power, etc), the lower orders inevitably succumb to the propaganda. They will genuinely believe that they fight for God, and so, in their minds they fight in defence of christianity. I do not make any assertion that christianity is different from other religions in this sense.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by DenyAllKnowledge]

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
If a war is fought between two christian sides, each with a conviction that their view is right and the other's view is blasphemy, then I think it is very much a war over christianity. The victor will have defeated the "blasphemers" and will now make it's form of christianity the official one, no doubt "endorsed by God" as He guided them to victory.

Indeed it appears at first glance hese wars were about Christianity. A good initial observation, however, let us examine these warring parties for a moment. Both parties, being 'christian' allegedly follow Christ, correct? Hence the name Christian. What does Christ (their leader) say?

"Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself." - Matthew 22:37-39

Oh surely this means only your own clan or hood, right? Nope...

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," - Matthew 5:43-44

My questions then are this: How can you love your enemy and yet kill them? Do you believe people were loving their enemy when they were killing them in these wars?

We can go into further detail if you like, but if you agree that these people were not following the teachings of their master, Christ, then we can move on.

"The French Wars of Religion: 1562-1598

The first major set of wars fought over the new churches was a series of civil wars fought in France. In 1559 Francis II became king of France at the ripe old age of fifteen. Understanding that the monarch was weak, three major noble families began to struggle for control of France: the Guises (pronounced, geez) in eastern France, the Bourbons in southern France, and the Montmorency-Chatillons in central France. Of the three, the Guises were both the most powerful and the most fanatical about Catholicism; they would eventually gain control of the young monarch and, for all practical purposes, rule the state of France. The Bourbons and the Montmorency-Chatillons were mostly Catholics who—for political reasons—supported the Protestant cause."

www.wsu.edu...

My goodness! Catholics siding with Protestants for political reasons? Could it be the war was about control, power, ruling the state and political reasons? What does Jesus say about making kingdoms on earth?

"Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." - John 18:36

So then...what kingdom were people dying for? Surely not the kingdom of Christianity. Rather, it was the kingdom of France.

Once again, Christianity is not the cause nor reason rather the excuse and scapegoat. Why? Because misled people may fight and die for their beliefs if they believe they may lose them. The king who led this war was not Christ, nor was endorsed by Christ, nor fought by followers of Christ (Christians).

"Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall." - Luke 11:17

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
Since the nature of the conflict, in the eyes of the simple peasent soldier, is all about defending his view of christianity then this is a christian holy war. He is fighting for his religion against people who may as well be pagans.

See above.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

All very nice and eloquent. But this makes no difference to the mind of a simple peasant fighting for what he may well believe is the kingdom of christ.

Religion simply adds another tragic dimension to conflict, and while it may not be directly responsible for the madness, it is no less to blame. On many occasions it rises to a far greater prominence than it deserves and repeatedly becomes a travesty of what it is purported to represent.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
All very nice and eloquent.

Must be nice to brush things aside. I think I will do that with the rest of your post as well as an illustration of the effect.


[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

saint, i never said that any war has ever been fought on the sole basis of any religion. but religion does add a factor and it helps create an easy way for people to create an "us vs them" mentality.

look at nazi germany. christians slaughtered jews and those of the roma faith. 1 group slaughtered 2 groups because of their religion and culture.

religion is never the sole cause of any conflict, but the main point is that it is just another stupid reason for us to kill each other on top of the others.

not a single religion has been the sole cause of any conflict, christianity is no exception to this rule.

[edit on 9/3/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Please don't tell me you honestly believe WWII had any form of religious basis. That would take more quoting than my 10,000 limit to show just some of the reasons why it wasn't. It's not a factor for doing anything other than shifting blame for the true causes I'd mentioned beforehand.

Although we've moved on from one war to another (since apparently the first example was grossly inadequate to demonstrate the "War of Religions" was indeed involving religion), what followers of Christ slaughtered anyone?


[edit on 3-9-2007 by saint4God]

You atheists may think religions brought these conflicts, but please indicate where in the bible it states to kill over religion. Religion has been manipulated
by greedy people, but it also brought love for many people.
Those wars were not spreading out the Christian message, but it was for
the leaders agenda to make invasion of other countries easy. Labeling a whole
group of people by the actions of some is generalization. It is not right to
indicate the Islamic religion as terrorists, so it is not right to condemn a whole
group of people by someones actions.

If you guys believe religions cause wars, then what about Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot? they were all atheists. They murdered just as you indicated religious leaders did. So before condemning a whole religion, look inside
yourselves and look at the past history of atheists before saying what is evil.

Every nation has good/evil in it, so who are you guys to judge them?

Originally posted by Equinox99
You atheists may think religions brought these conflicts, but please indicate where in the bible it states to kill over religion.

the slaughter at middia and the various other ethnic cleansings ordered by god in the old testament...

is that good enough for you?

If you guys believe religions cause wars, then what about Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot? they were all atheists. They murdered just as you indicated religious leaders did.

nobody ever argued that religion was the SOLE cause. and one thing to point out.... atheism was never a point used to justify the killing...
these people actually killed in the name of a pseudo-religious political ideology known as communism...

So before condemning a whole religion,

...you misunderstand... i condemn the very idea of religion, not just specific ones.

look inside
yourselves and look at the past history of atheists before saying what is evil.

atheists are just like any other people, they can be good or evil... but religion can twist good people to do bad things in the name of their deity. atheism can't twist anyone to do anything for any particular reason as it is the limited denial of host of hypotheses proposed by thousands of religions with no affirmed beliefs.

Every nation has good/evil in it, so who are you guys to judge them?

...rational thinking beings.

now, here's the thing i'd like to point out... an atheist country. sweden. 80% atheist. look it up, then try telling me it doesn't seem like a great place to live.

Yes, I see you did not quote me saying religion was corrupted, and manipulated by leaders to gain control over other nations. As for religion getting twisted to cause people to do bad things lets look at this:

"There were thirty-two school-associated violent deaths in the United States between July 1, 1999 and June 30, 2000, sixteen of which involved children of school age.[1]

In 2003, 5% of students ages 12–18 reported being victims of nonfatal crimes, 4% reported being victims of theft, and 1% reported being victims of violent incidents.[1] In 2003, public school students were more likely than private school students to report being bullied (7 vs. 5%), and rural students were more likely than their urban and suburban counterparts to report being bullied (10% vs. 7%).[1]

In 1999–2000, 20% of all public schools experienced one or more serious violent crimes such as rape, sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault. 71% of public schools reported violent incidents and 46% reported thefts"
Wiki
So wait public schools is the ones that teach about God? Oh, wait they do not. So how come Catholic schools are less violent that public? I thought
religion twists peoples minds. Well sir, I can assure you it does not twist
our mind, and I for one enjoy reading the bible and about religion.
If you think religions cause war, then that is fine that is your opinion,
but I think is religion was practiced right by everyone, than this world would
be a better place.

[edit on 4-9-2007 by Equinox99]

Originally posted by Equinox99
So wait public schools is the ones that teach about God? Oh, wait they do not. So how come Catholic schools are less violent that public? I thought
religion twists peoples minds.

show me the causation. you're showing correlation, it doesn't = causation. there is no direct link between teaching religion and violence. catholic schools tend to be less filled with crime because they are better run... just like madrases... public schools lack the discipline and structure present.

it isn't the teaching about god that makes the difference...
one odd thing... i went to a catholic school for a couple of years, all boys run by jesuits.. very little in the way of crime... but also very little in the way of free expression. that's the thing, it's a repressive system.

your example fails

Well sir, I can assure you it does not twist
our mind,

it pushes reason from your head, of course it twists your mind. you believe in something with absolutely no evidence to support it, that is twisted.

and I for one enjoy reading the bible and about religion.

.... you enjoy reading that misogynistic, xenophobic, genocidal, authoritarian, racist book? hell, it isn't even that well written. there are internal inconsistencies and it flies in the face of good morals, reason, and reality.

If you think religions cause war, then that is fine that is your opinion,

it's quite obvious that religion is a cause for wars.

but I think is religion was practiced right by everyone, than this world would
be a better place.

it's still a lack of logic and reason... how does the absence of what made humanity great make it better?

i think this world would be a better place if we didn't indulge our primitive need for superstition and instead worked off of our reason and logic.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As for you claiming religion is the cause of wars, you could not be more wrong. I practice religion, and I do not run around the streets beating people up for not being Christian.
In fact I am friends with people who are different races and different religions. If anything it is atheists who are starting these online wars, and propaganda.
Just look at the title and you decide, "The Anti-Christian conspiracy".
I am Christian and I have nothing but the utter most respect for every individual on this planet. So am I under the war causing people? I should not be, but if that is where you put me then so be it.
Religion is not about war, well at least last time I checked it was not. Who heard Buddha yelling out to kill the infidels? Or Jesus telling us to destroy any people that were not Christian? Oh please, give me some examples I would love to hear some.
Or how about modern day religious wars? where are they? USA vs Islam?
that is not a religious war, it is a war for oil, and greed which was not in the bible last time I read it.
I do not care what you believe, but when you push your believes on me then it is a different story. That is what you are doing and it will not work. You telling me to "drop" religion because it creates to much war and such, how about just taking away people rights to worship whatever they want?

saint, i quickly would like to point out that i was just saying how religion was the only real thing distinguishing the jews and non-jews in nazi germany. i'm not saying christianity is why it happened, i'm saying that the stupid division of people by their particular choice of ethnic myth is why it was so easy for it to happen.

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. As for you claiming religion is the cause of wars, you could not be more wrong.

i never said that religion causes wars, i pointed out that religion is a contributing factor that can help divide people.

I practice religion, and I do not run around the streets beating people up for not being Christian.

yes, that's a product of good ol' secular moral philosophy for you.

In fact I am friends with people who are different races and different religions.

and i never said you weren't.

If anything it is atheists who are starting these online wars, and propaganda.

you're making an assumption here... i'd like to see proof.

Just look at the title and you decide, "The Anti-Christian conspiracy".

yeah, it's a BS title by a poster who did nothing but attack non-christians... kind of ironic, imho.

I am Christian and I have nothing but the utter most respect for every individual on this planet. So am I under the war causing people? I should not be, but if that is where you put me then so be it.

i never said that every christian is a violence loving war starter... i just said that religion can help contribute to the start of meaningless conflict.

Religion is not about war, well at least last time I checked it was not.

depends on which one.

Who heard Buddha yelling out to kill the infidels?

buddha is an exception... and buddhism isn't quite a religion... it's more of a spiritual philosophy.

Or Jesus telling us to destroy any people that were not Christian? Oh please, give me some examples I would love to hear some.

well, for buddha you'll find none... as buddha was cool like that.

...as for jesus.. he was just a xenophobe.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

however, he did strongly approve of his father's work... just read up on the old testament...

Or how about modern day religious wars? where are they? USA vs Islam?
that is not a religious war, it is a war for oil, and greed which was not in the bible last time I read it.

how about israeli religious fanatics trying to exterminate palestinians?

I do not care what you believe, but when you push your believes on me then it is a different story.

i'm not trying to push my beliefs on you.... as i actually only have lack of beliefs...
i'm trying to reason with you and give you thought out arguments on the corrosive nature of religion.

That is what you are doing and it will not work. You telling me to "drop" religion because it creates to much war and such, how about just taking away people rights to worship whatever they want?

that's reasonless hyperbole. i'm saying that you need to make a cognitive choice to abandon a lack of reason, i'm not going to force it on you...
actually, that's the realm of the religious institutions.

you'll never get a door to door atheist preaching the lack of news.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Oh then I misunderstood this right?

it's quite obvious that religion is a cause for wars.

Which was a wrong thing to say, you could have said in history religion was
a factor that played in some wars. The truth is that religion has nothing to do
with wars, wars are caused by man, not by God, but it is easier to manipulate your country into wars by throwing religion in their. What best way to invade a country then by throwing a statement like "God wanted this
to happen" which is wrong.
Oh for the Israel trying to exterminate Palestine, you must also understand
who the Hamas are and what they stand for.

Founded in 1987, Hamas was the Gaza Strip branch of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement founded in Egypt. Hamas is opposed to the existence of Israel, with one Hamas parliamentarian denouncing the 1993 Oslo Accords as "not a peace process" and "a process of deception and cheating and lies which enabled Israel to truncate our homeland with settlements and separation walls and roadblocks and closed military zones."[55] In 2004 Hamas offered a 10-year truce, or hudna, in exchange for several conditions including a complete withdrawal from Israeli-occupied territories

Wiki



[edit on 4-9-2007 by Equinox99]

Originally posted by saint4God

Must be nice to brush things aside. I think I will do that with the rest of your post as well as an illustration of the effect.

[edit on 2-9-2007 by saint4God]

I really must try to find the express elevator to the top of your ivory tower! Things must be pretty fantabulosa up there. I'm sorry if I dismiss your view that religion is completely divorced from politics, etc. I've worked on excavations for more than 30 years, the religions of which pre-date the infant christianity by many many centuries, and have found that many of these forgotten religions have just as much (in fact, many have more) of a highly developed philosophy as christianity. What makes them less valid or true?

The point I was implying, that religion is a construct of humanity (and in my opinion a nescessary one) and therefore part and parcel of all other human institutions, was evidently lost on you.

Christianity is a product of many previous religions, to view it as something "special" is frankly a result of very careful and planned human intervention - and therefore suspect.

What I really don't understand is how christianity (or it's descendents like Islam, etc) became so popular (oh, of course, Byzantine politics directly affected the development of christianity, as did roman occupation of Judea......). Their focus appears to be suffering as opposed to celebration, a profoundly negative interpretation of life and what it means to exist amongst our fellow man.

Oh dear! Attempt at debate yet again prooves to be time consuming and utterly pointless!

i said "a" for a reason.

Originally posted by Equinox99
Oh for the Israel trying to exterminate Palestine, you must also understand
who the Hamas are and what they stand for.

you might want to understand the history of the conflict before you get into something as short sighted as a group founded in the late 80s...

you know, you might want to hop over to a thread i have on above politics in the "other global politics section" and look into the history of exactly how the israelis have mistreated the palestinian population

Ah yes, more proof of the Anti-Christian conspiracy diverting the topic to how Christianity is responsible for all wars in history . I guess we're still on topic then (albeit a rather indirect route) so all is normal with the world.

Originally posted by saint4God
Ah yes, more proof of the Anti-Christian conspiracy diverting the topic to how Christianity is responsible for all wars in history

. I guess we're still on topic then (albeit a rather indirect route) so all is normal with the world.

Uhhhh. I think im gunna start a "why does every one hate the jews?" thread. and saint christianity covers Catholics and Protestants. also CHRIST wasnt his name. It was a name given to him after he was killed (lets not argue whether he rose from the dead or not. because even if he did HE WAS KILLED! and he was killed by the roman for trying to spark rebellion. ) Now i know your probably going to counter me with something about the bible so before you do Ill tell you a nice little thing about the religions based off of the Jewish people. None of the stories in the Bible are original read Gilgamesh or the Egyptian creation myths. Its almost identical and as for being a heretic i have 3 copies of the bibal right next to Napoleon: A political life, Paradise lost, and the Space Almanac all are good stories but two are based on fact take a guess!