Vegetarians and Vegans and others. What do you do with the animals?

a reply to: daskakik

It is what the OP was after, but it's the question vegans and vegetarians never answer.

Mostly, their arguments are based on ethics and morality. "Eat our way because meat is murder -- poor, poor, animals!" But if they got the radical, sudden political solutions they advocate for, farmers would cut their losses or face ruin. There would be nowhere for the abandoned animals to go, and it would be a mass extinction level event.

It's the answer they can never give because my guess is they have no solution assuming they've even though that far ahead.

a reply to: ketsuko

It's a loaded question. Don't blame them for not answering.

It is also a ridiculous premise to think they would be set free instead of put down.

originally posted by: pheonix358
Let us just pretend that you all get your way and the rest of us stop eating animals.

"your way" so as a vegetarian, my way? i have a way now? an agenda? simply due to dropping all meat out of the menu?

Food does not have to be tied into an ideology. I eat what i eat, others eat what they eat. Big deal. That is "my way"

originally posted by: ketsuko

So ... go vegan or I love factory farms?

Let the vegans lead the way in getting rid of factory farms. It all comes down to consumer demand and if that demand drops then factory farms are not needed. I actually get most of my beef from grass fed cows anyways that I have friends who raise them and I buy 1/2 cow as needed. I could do the same for pork too...As good tasting as grass fed cows are I think I should do the same with pork. Chickens are a little different in I don't have anyone that raises them for food as much as eggs.

I'm a little lazy, but here in the NW you can rent pasture to raise one cow per year and I think they charge 10 to 15 dollars a month. You can slaughter your own cow too to save on the processing of $200 -300.

So here is the cost if you are not lazy like me...

Calf 165.00
8 months grazing fee 100.00ish
Distillers grain (350 micro breweries around me lol) 140.00 per ton for 3 months of grain of about an average of 10 pounds per day. (3.5 lbs per day to start and 15 lbs per day to finish) only one ton needed...

730 pounds of meat once slaughtered.

Slaughter yourself and you pay 60 cents a pound
Have someone slaughter for you and you pay about a buck a pound

Now sell 1/2 cow to friends at 3 bucks a pound and you have 365 pounds of free beef and an extra 800+ dollars for beer. Or just have a slaughter house pick up the cow and you go get your wax wrapped 730 pounds of beef. It would cut into your beer money and you would only have 730.00 for beer (60 64oz growlers lol), but rather convenient.

Free beef and free beer is good....So who needs factory farms again?

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: ketsuko

It's a loaded question. Don't blame them for not answering.

It is also a ridiculous premise to think they would be set free instead of put down.

No, but while they browbeat those of us who enjoy our food in all its forms and assume a position of moral superiority, a little intellectual honesty is in order.

I got no issues with people who eat special diets for whatever reasons they choose.

I am having a nice vegetable beef stew in homemade bone broth stock this weekend. Not vegan in the slightest, but full of lots of vegetable matter all the same, especially cabbage. Just because I don't choose to eat vegetarian or vegan doesn't mean I don't enjoy my vegetables or go vegetable heavy at many meals.

Here are some numbers for perspective JUST IN THE UNITED STATES...

2017 - 93.6 million head of cattle
2018 - 391.3 million egg laying chickens
2019 - 74.3 million hogs
2008 - 9 BILLION chickens for slaughter.

Like I said earlier... it's a matter of SCALE.

a reply to: Xtrozero

We use two butchers who local source, but we do supplement from the grocers as needed.

originally posted by: ketsuko

We use two butchers who local source, but we do supplement from the grocers as needed.

People have no clue how tasty local source beef is, and it is vegan friendly as in free range raised.

a reply to: ketsuko
Intellectual dishonesty from some vegetarians and vegans doesn't mean we can't point out the intellectual dishonesty in the OP and OP's replies.

a reply to: pheonix358

Eh?

Most of the animals yous eat are farmed? If they're all killed off? Nae farms? Which looks like it'd be a very good thing for Mother Earth.

Its not like the majority of meat eaters are going out stalking and hunting their own meat. They get it at the super market... And that meat comes from mass animal farms...

Also whats with your first line in OP. Its not about wanting people to stop eating animals, first and foremost its about saving our planet which all you meat eaters happen to live on to!!!

One of the main causes of deforestation, greenhouse gases, habitat loss etc is because of mass animal agriculture......

If peoples want to eat meat, sure thats their path. At least do is sustainably, actually scratch that, it should be regeneratively and obviously humanely too...

a reply to: fluff007

There are large swaths of the world not suited to intensive plant ag. I drive through one of those areas all the time. It is ideal grazing range though. I see lots of cattle on those pastures. Not to mention, pastures preserve the habitat for wildlife much more than monoculture ag does for raising plant crops of all kinds. Cows share their pastures with all kinds of wildlife including the insects that pesticides are wreaking havok on. You don't need near the Roundup and other herbicides to raise cows on pasture.

ketsuko
fluff007

See, it wasn't that hard to find middle ground.

originally posted by: doobydoll

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: LocalGenius

you pretty much only have to understand the concept of supply and demand.

Demand for meat = 0

Supply of meat = 1000 animals.

What does the farmer do with his over supply problem.

Talk about educating kindergarten.

P

Do you mean if the demand for meat is a sudden 0 and the farmer is left with all his unsold animals? It's hardly a likely scenario. But should something so unlikely occur, I'm sure there are other carnivores around the world apart from humans that would appreciate a good feed. The farm animals wouldn't be just abandoned and left to starve to death.

Farm animals are not wild animals like the bison and other wild herd animals. It is humans that have bred them to look and behave like they do - some are bred and fed for the quality of their dairy produce, and some are bred and fed for the quality of their meat. They are fed specific and measured supplements and other fake crap to maximise the 'quality'. It's actually quite a controlled science that farmers have got going on. These animals don't migrate and feed and live life 'on-the-hoof' like wild herds do.

Farming is a business. A business that makes animals.

It's like a previous poster said, basic supply and demand. A farmer, like any other 'manufacturer', will only produce what he can sell and profit from. If no-one wants to buy what he makes/produces = 0 profit. He won't make any more.

Just a small question, where did the wild bore, dogs and cats, camel, come from the couldn’t have been from domesticated animals we all know that they can’t survive in the wild don’t we, ?

A few more stats....

According to a 2016 analysis by John Dunham & Associates, the U.S. meat and poultry industry accounts for $1.02 trillion in total economic output or 5.6 percent of gross domestic product (GDP)

The meat and poultry industry broadly is responsible for 5.4 million jobs and $257 billion in wages, the report found. An estimated 527,019 people have jobs in production and packing, importing operations, sales, packaging and direct distribution of meat and poultry products.

That's a big hole to fill...

a reply to: Robbo2006

Wild boar are the pre-cursor to domestic hog.

Cats still aren't actually domesticated. House pets are tamed by socialization at a young age, not fully domesticated.

Dromedaries are extinct in the wild except for feral populations in Australia. There are still purely wild populations of Bactrian camels in Mongolia.

Domestic animals can sometimes return to the wild with varying degrees of success. Feral hogs are a massive problem all over the United States. But simply opening the gates and releasing all farm animals would invite massive slaughter and starvation. It would be enormously cruel even beyond slaughterhouse levels.

originally posted by: pheonix358
Let us just pretend that you all get your way and the rest of us stop eating animals.

What happens after the next animal birthing season?

In as little as two years, you would run out of room for the animals.

Additionally, these animals, in numbers not seen since the Bison herds were wiped out are eating all of the food you want to eat.

What will you do, cull the animals?

How far into the future can a vegan see?

P

Funnily enough they do not realise that we are keeping most of these animals alive, to eat. Cows, horses, pigs, sheep, chickens, etc... all would die in a very short time span due to other predators attacking and eating them. Birds alone would do this. Also if they contract a disease even once, it could wipe out the vast majority of them. We are allowing them to survive, so they would not double in numbers, (maybe for a short time) they would actually drop in numbers. The only reason any of these animals are alive in the numbers they are, are due to humans preserving them for our needs. So they can thank us, if anything. The true mass murder of animals would be if we did not eat them. They have no science behind their stupid ideals, just a shared hatred of themselves, their waste-fullness of the earth, their inability to loose wight without eating just plants and the fear that they are already tainted.

a reply to: BlackProject
Guess you missed the part where the OP said they would grow to "numbers not seen since the Bison herds".

Not sure about other countries but what about plagues and animal over breeding.

Here in Australia
Mice and rat plagues destroying crops the vegans rely on.(impossible to contain not easy to control)
Kangaroos over breeding and destroying crops ect.(not east to contain or control)
Rabbit plagues.(again not easy to manage without extreme measures)

These particular animals have already caused massive issues with crop destruction and disease recently and historically.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: daskakik

It is what the OP was after, but it's the question vegans and vegetarians never answer.
Mostly, their arguments are based on ethics and morality. "Eat our way because meat is murder -- poor, poor, animals!" But if they got the radical, sudden political solutions they advocate for, farmers would cut their losses or face ruin. There would be nowhere for the abandoned animals to go, and it would be a mass extinction level event.

Processed food producers have ruined any notion of being a vegetarian for me. I am now allergic to Soy due to its BEING IN EVERYTHING. No occasional Tofu salad, no soy milk (great source of vegetable protein).

a reply to: vethumanbeing
You can still be a vegetarian. You just can't be vegan.

Other beans, besides soy, are a good source of protein. So, is nutritional yeast.

Eggs and dairy from free range animals are also acceptable to some vegetarians.