Iranian military war games , Iran isn't another Iraq

These videos don't seem to show that the iranians are at all anymore capable than the iraqis. The iranian army couldn't defeat the iraqi army when it invaded iran, why would it be able to defeat, or even give a significantly worse problem, to the US?

Certainly, if the Zulus could wipe out a British column, then the iranians certainly can't be thought of as being powerless. Nevertheless, the Iraqi army and republican guard was quickly defeated. Its possible that they faded more quickly because hussein apparently 'went commando', thus removing some of the supreme command. I don't see why decapitation strikes against iran wouldn't acheive the same effect tho.

Originally posted by Nygdan
The iranian army couldn't defeat the iraqi army when it invaded iran

SOmthing people keep forgeting. There was something called a revolution in 1979. Everything in Iran was made in the US. Iran didnt have engieneers or any one to keep their equipment running. The genuis Khomeini thought it was a smart idead to disband the army and he airforce and the navy. When Iraq at their most strength attacked Iran, Iran didnt have an army. Analysists thought it would take at most a week for Iran to fall. Saddam pomised his people he would be in Tehran in three days. Khoramshahr which is exactly on the boarder and is mostly Arab fell after around a month. Thats as far as Iraq ever came to winning. Two years later Saddam asked for peace because he was losing to a Iran without an army. It took he US navy to sink Iran's ships and the Soviet planes to down the Iranian topguns which were given execution order before the war.

Now Iran has a standing army of around half a million. Has many reserves. Has a militia numbering more than a million. Iran of now cannot, possibly be compare to Iran in 1979.

True, but then again, the Soviet Union went in Afghanistan in the 70s and had a really hard time. The United States went through and blew the crap out of them in a matter of days.

So no one really knows anything.

I seriously doubt the U.S. is going into Iran though. And personally I don't think it matters a whole lot, because if Iran DOES get a workable nuke and demonstrates it to the world, chances are Israel will go through and bomb the he** out of them anyhow.

Questions:

If our almighty US army "blew through" Afghanistan in a short time, why the HELL were they surprised attacked on 9/11 by a bunch of "terrorists" working from a cave??

Is anyone forgetting one important thing about the upcoming summer war on Iran? We're ALREADY fighting a war in Iraq! And, we're not even making much progress there! (I'd say losing, which is accurate and has been admitted recently, but I know all you gung ho patriots will have a field day)

Talk this and talk that, but stretching yourself thin won't help you win any war, regardless of who you are. Then again, no one pays attention to history...I guess because they make it so boring!

BTW, Syria is running scared and has made a defense pact with Iran. And of course, our little 8itch Israel is chomping at the bit to hit Iran. And our Commie buddies the Chinese are getting ready to whoop up on Taiwan.

WWIII is imminent, homies. I hope you people who support our "war president" are happy.

Originally posted by Broadsword20068
True, but then again, the Soviet Union went in Afghanistan in the 70s and had a really hard time. The United States went through and blew the crap out of them in a matter of days.

One crucial thing that most people miss about the war in Afghanistan, is that every one supported it. Even Iran sent special forces and captured Herat and handed it over to the US. Pakistan supported it. And another crucial aspect is that the Afghanis were fighting their own. Remember Tabliban wasnt the entire Mujahedin. The northern alliance army was a crucial part of the Mujahedin which faced Soviet Union. In the US invasion, the alliance fought alongside with the US.

Originally posted by bodrul
good find

nice to know they can take s**t loads of US personale before they fall

You are a piece of sh*t. How dare you speak of my countries guardians in that manner. These men and women lay their lives on the line so that innocent people can have their own God given rights. I for one cannot wait for the day to come when we blow all of you Muslim extremists off the map once and for all. You and all those who believe in violence against the innocent will burn in hell. There is no Allah for you.

Originally posted by csulli456
You are a piece of sh*t. How dare you speak of my countries guardians in that manner. These men and women lay their lives on the line so that innocent people can have their own God given rights. I for one cannot wait for the day to come when we blow all of you Muslim extremists off the map once and for all. You and all those who believe in violence against the innocent will burn in hell. There is no Allah for you.

Yeah, its like,"I dont believe in violence, that is why I wish you all die".

From stumason

You forget that the Iraqi Army was decimated by years of sanctions and the Generals you bought off and betrayed their men. The Iranians on the other hand have not had such restrictions. They themselves could have rolled over Iraq at any time as well with what they have now.

stumason seems to forget that Gulf WarI was not against a decimated foe due to sanctions. If I remember correctely Iraq had one of the top ten largest armies at the time of Gulf War I in terms of size, ie troops, tanks, aircraft, artillery ect. Granted they had just finished the Iran/Iraq war but that should have given them seasoned soldiers.

Airpower + Tactics + Training + Supply + Mobility + Real time battlefield intelligence + being able to choose the time and place of battle (Typically nightime) are very huge advantages that would be hard to overcome.
I recall in Operation Iraqi Freedom one of the Iraqi armored divisions tried to move south(either at night or during a sandstorm) on our forces and was just obliterated from the sky long before they even got to the front lines. Any masses of troops, tanks ect is just a big bullseye nowadays. I just don't see any none 1st world military standing up to the projection of force that the U.S. or other top armies can bring to bear on a nation if they choose to. Hard to swallow for some but true.

stumason seems to forget that Gulf WarI was not against a decimated foe due to sanctions. If I remember correctely Iraq had one of the top ten largest armies at the time of Gulf War I in terms of size, ie troops, tanks, aircraft, artillery ect. Granted they had just finished the Iran/Iraq war but that should have given them seasoned soldiers.

From where do you summize that I have forgotten GW1? I remember it quite well.

In fact, Stormin Norman caused quiet a fuss when he went through a neutral Zone and outflanked the Iraqi Army, facilitating its quick defeat.

What you might also wish to note, is that Air Power did precious little damage on some units, and it wasn't until the Ground Forces engaged that Iraqi Armour was decimated.

Well, Csulli, if our govt cares so much about innocent people, why the HELL aren't they trying to "liberate" the Sudanese people. Unlike Iraq, where the Saddam we once backed was doing dirt, the Sudanese govt is admittedly committing genocide! If we care so much about freedom, why don't we save them?!?!

Originally posted by Sep

Originally posted by csulli456
You are a piece of sh*t. How dare you speak of my countries guardians in that manner. These men and women lay their lives on the line so that innocent people can have their own God given rights. I for one cannot wait for the day to come when we blow all of you Muslim extremists off the map once and for all. You and all those who believe in violence against the innocent will burn in hell. There is no Allah for you.

Yeah, its like,"I dont believe in violence, that is why I wish you all die".

Not exactly what I ment, but I expected that. I dont believe in violence upon innocent people. Then again who is innocent. But the whole idea of Iran obtaining nukes is just so they can blast Israel off the map. When its self defense or the defense of another then its right to do what you have to do. Sometimes pre-emptive is right too, if you are saving future innocent lives or that is your soul purpose. Bottom line if you are trustworthy then you have nothing to fear but if there is a chance you may attack us then it is best we attack you first.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Well, Csulli, if our govt cares so much about innocent people, why the HELL aren't they trying to "liberate" the Sudanese people. Unlike Iraq, where the Saddam we once backed was doing dirt, the Sudanese govt is admittedly committing genocide! If we care so much about freedom, why don't we save them?!?!

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I absolutely agree with you 100%. However I dont run the government so that would be impossible for me to answer. May I suggest mabe its not at the top of our priority list because they are in no threat to us. You have to remember we have to allways defend ourselves first and the war on terrorism I truly believe should be our highest priority. Thats where all these other ME countries come into play. Its all about achieving the main objective, safety for our own. I do think however if its at all possible in the least then we should be there supporting and liberating the innocent that are being slaugtered. With great power comes great responsability and we need to act on as many fronts as we are needed. So I am not sticking up for no one by excusing our abscense from Sudan but I do keep an open mind and try to see the whole picture. Nonetheless it is an atrocity what is happening there and I hope we do something about it real soon.

OK, Csulli, I'm game...

I see your position on the Sudan. Don't necessarily agree, but I understand. But, as for the ME...

When has Iran said that it will nuke us or kill any of our troops that approach their borders? When has Syria done this? I'll leave Iraq out of this since that's debatable. And as for Afghanistan, all I know that they did for us is provide some killa a$$ weed. I bet you'd like to know that since we kicked their a$$, the amount of opium produced there has gone through the roof! Now why is that? But, that's for another discussion...

Now, Pakistan and N. Korea HAVE done these things, yet we don't invade them. Please explain this to me Csulli? If we're so worried about our safety, why don't we attack the people who ACTUALLY talk about doing us in???

Originally posted by csulli456
Not exactly what I ment, but I expected that. I dont believe in violence upon innocent people. Then again who is innocent. But the whole idea of Iran obtaining nukes is just so they can blast Israel off the map.

Iran has had chemical and biological weapons for years. If it wanted to destroy Israel at any cost it would have already launched the WMDs. They havent. So we can undrestand Iran isnt going to use them. So what is the point of WMDs? Deterence. See, if Iran had nukes by now there would be no talks of attacks on it.

Originally posted by csulli456. Sometimes pre-emptive is right too, if you are saving future innocent lives or that is your soul purpose.

But what about the lives that are going to be destroyed now? If and when an attack occures people die. The US government is not God. It cannot decide who is good, or who is bad. Who is responsible and who isnt or who deserves to live and who diserves to die.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by Sep]

Originally posted by truthseeka
OK, Csulli, I'm game...

I see your position on the Sudan. Don't necessarily agree, but I understand. But, as for the ME...

When has Iran said that it will nuke us or kill any of our troops that approach their borders? When has Syria done this? I'll leave Iraq out of this since that's debatable. And as for Afghanistan, all I know that they did for us is provide some killa a$$ weed.

I bet you'd like to know that since we kicked their a$$, the amount of opium produced there has gone through the roof! Now why is that? But, that's for another discussion...

Now, Pakistan and N. Korea HAVE done these things, yet we don't invade them. Please explain this to me Csulli? If we're so worried about our safety, why don't we attack the people who ACTUALLY talk about doing us in???

I see and understand your point completely. As for the opium, I`m not as concerned with peoples choices on whether or not to do drugs, I think that is one`s own decision to make. I dont think our government is perfect at all but I can say I support them on certain issues if the facts that are given to us are in fact accurate and correct. I for one dont believe that are government is absolutely 100% misleading us all of the time.

AS for Pakistan, I`ve never known of them to actually threaten the US, however I am not denying it if you have facts to back that up. Korea is a threat and I think we are dealing with them just at a much slower pace. We need the other countries in that immediate vicinity to take part in any conflict and I think that is why we have all of these countries at the table when negotiating.

Iran may not have ever said that they would nuke us or attack us in any way at all. It is the mere fact that the government there is not all on the same page and that the nukes have the potential of getting in the hands of terrorists who have said they would attack us. That is the same reason I think it wasortant for us to take out the Saddam regime in Iraq.

It all comes down to our war on terrorism and either you are with us or you or not. That was made clear to all after the events of September 11,2001. I for one will never forget and want all of those who intend to harm my people, (all Americans), destroyed or broought to justice. If there is a nation that intends to create nuclear weapons and that nation has harbored terrorists at a any time then we need not let are guard down. We need to act. We need to put our people first in terms of safety. These countries either have to work with us in our demands to stop terrorism or they have to be held accountable.

Originally posted by Sep

Originally posted by csulli456
Not exactly what I ment, but I expected that. I dont believe in violence upon innocent people. Then again who is innocent. But the whole idea of Iran obtaining nukes is just so they can blast Israel off the map.

Iran has had chemical and biological weapons for years. If it wanted to destroy Israel at any cost it would have already launched the WMDs. They havent. So we can undrestand Iran isnt going to use them. So what is the point of WMDs? Deterence. See, if Iran had nukes by now there would be no talks of attacks on it.

Originally posted by csulli456. Sometimes pre-emptive is right too, if you are saving future innocent lives or that is your soul purpose.

But what about the lives that are going to be destroyed now? If and when an attack occures people die. The US government is not God. It cannot decide who is good, or who is bad. Who is responsible and who isnt or who deserves to live and who diserves to die.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by Sep]

Iran and Syria have had these weapons for years and not attacked us or Israel but the world has changed very much since September 11,2001. There are people out there who hate us just because of our values for freedom. The potential for a WMD attack on US soil by terrorists is far much greater if the countries who harbor them have these weapons. That region of the world, have you believe it or not, is greatly divided on their views toward America. There are many people there who do embrace our ideas of freedom and simply understand that we dont want to be a terrorist target. And then there are so many who hate us and want us all to die.

There is a real threat to our nations security when so many people share the same fanatical ideaology. We have to always be on guard so that another tragic event does not happen on our soil.

Our government is far from God. But it is there job to protect us first and foremost. Would you rather we do nothing and mabe every five yaers or so 5000 innocent Americans die from some sort of bombing by terrorists? Or whats more real, that they get their slimy hands on a nuke and take out a few million of our own. keep in mind it is your brothers and sisters and mother and father and your kids and my kids and our friends, that is who they want to die. They love to inflict damage and pain and suffering. When we as a country go to war that is the last thing we want. We dont want one innocent to ever have to pay the price. That is why there is so much research and money pumped into our smart technology. It is inevitable that innocents will die in a time of war but we try very hard that that wont happen and we always go in after and rebuild for the people, not the governments we toppled. So it is a real difficult decision to make but you have to weigh all your options. If nothing else works in terms of negotiating then we must act to protect our own. War is horrible.

My contention is that there is little chance a nation has against the full force of a 1st rate military (US or other) bent on smashing their foe into submission. Quite Frankly, most nations aren't in the same league as the U.S., U.K., Europe, Russia, China and some others that I have forgot to mention when it comes to waging a total all out war.

GULF WAR I STATS
U.S. casualties:
148 battle deaths, 145 nonbattle deaths
Army: 98 battle; 105 nonbattle
Navy 6 battle; 8 nonbattle
Marines: 24 battle; 26 nonbattle
Air Force: 20 battle; 6 nonbattle
Women killed, 15
U.S. wounded in action: 467.
Allied Combat Air Sorties Flown: More than 116,000

Coalition Aircraft Losses: 75 (63 U.S., 12 Allied)
Fixed wing, 37 combat, 15 noncombat
U.S. losses, 28 combat, 12 noncombat
No U.S. losses in air-to-air engagements
Helicopters, 23 (all U.S.): 5 combat, 18 noncombat

Estimated Iraqi Losses: (U.S. Central Command, March 7, 1991)

36 fixed-wing aircraft in air-to-air engagements
6 helicopters in air-to-air engagements
68 fixed- and 13 rotary-wing aircraft destroyed on the ground
137 Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran
3,700 of 4,280 battle tanks
2,400 of 2,870 assorted other armored vehicles
2,600 of 3,110 assorted artillery pieces
19 naval ships sunk, 6 damaged
42 divisions made combat-ineffective
Enemy prisoners of war captured: U.S. forces released 71,204 to Saudi control.

Would any conflict with Iran be much different?

Originally posted by pavil
Would any conflict with Iran be much different?

Iraq had just finished a war with Iran and has lost many of it's men and probably a lot of equipment. They were also facing 500,000 soldiers from the US and other nations.

It's doubtful you'll get a coalition that big again and I think Iran may be able to defend itself better than Iraq did. They have drones that they can use to spot the US ground forces. I think they also have other technology that may be able to help them.

www.csis.org...

.....Iran is still a significant conventional military power by Gulf standards. It has some 540,000 men under arms, and over 350,000 reserves. These include 120,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards trained for land and naval asymmetric
warfare. Iran’s military also includes holdings of 1,613 main battle tanks, 1,500 other armored fighting vehicles, 3,200 artillery weapons, 306 combat aircraft, 50 attack helicopters, 3 submarines, 59 surface combatants, and 10 amphibious ships.

Originally posted by csulli456
Iran and Syria have had these weapons for years and not attacked us or Israel but the world has changed very much since September 11,2001. There are people out there who hate us just because of our values for freedom. The potential for a WMD attack on US soil by terrorists is far much greater if the countries who harbor them have these weapons. That region of the world, have you believe it or not, is greatly divided on their views toward America. There are many people there who do embrace our ideas of freedom and simply understand that we dont want to be a terrorist target. And then there are so many who hate us and want us all to die.

There is a real threat to our nations security when so many people share the same fanatical ideaology. We have to always be on guard so that another tragic event does not happen on our soil.

You can protect yourselves through other means. Control your boarders, control you airports and there is no way you could be harmed. You say people hate your values, there are other countries that share your values, but I dont see them bombing every country that wants to stand up.

The west has been using the exuse of protecting itself and its values for years to harm the countries in the middle east. For a great example of the see operation Ajax.

Originally posted by csulli456Our government is far from God. But it is there job to protect us first and foremost. Would you rather we do nothing and mabe every five yaers or so 5000 innocent Americans die from some sort of bombing by terrorists? Or whats more real, that they get their slimy hands on a nuke and take out a few million of our own. keep in mind it is your brothers and sisters and mother and father and your kids and my kids and our friends, that is who they want to die. They love to inflict damage and pain and suffering. When we as a country go to war that is the last thing we want. We dont want one innocent to ever have to pay the price. That is why there is so much research and money pumped into our smart technology. It is inevitable that innocents will die in a time of war but we try very hard that that wont happen and we always go in after and rebuild for the people, not the governments we toppled.

Well, you might not know, but I am no American. I am an Iranian. If you attack it is my family that is going to die. I undrestand that most of the people living in the US probebly dont care about us, if we die or live, but attacking us will hurt the people severly.

Originally posted by Sep

Originally posted by csulli456
Iran and Syria have had these weapons for years and not attacked us or Israel but the world has changed very much since September 11,2001. There are people out there who hate us just because of our values for freedom. The potential for a WMD attack on US soil by terrorists is far much greater if the countries who harbor them have these weapons. That region of the world, have you believe it or not, is greatly divided on their views toward America. There are many people there who do embrace our ideas of freedom and simply understand that we dont want to be a terrorist target. And then there are so many who hate us and want us all to die.

There is a real threat to our nations security when so many people share the same fanatical ideaology. We have to always be on guard so that another tragic event does not happen on our soil.

You can protect yourselves through other means. Control your boarders, control you airports and there is no way you could be harmed. You say people hate your values, there are other countries that share your values, but I dont see them bombing every country that wants to stand up.

The west has been using the exuse of protecting itself and its values for years to harm the countries in the middle east. For a great example of the see operation Ajax.

Originally posted by csulli456Our government is far from God. But it is there job to protect us first and foremost. Would you rather we do nothing and mabe every five yaers or so 5000 innocent Americans die from some sort of bombing by terrorists? Or whats more real, that they get their slimy hands on a nuke and take out a few million of our own. keep in mind it is your brothers and sisters and mother and father and your kids and my kids and our friends, that is who they want to die. They love to inflict damage and pain and suffering. When we as a country go to war that is the last thing we want. We dont want one innocent to ever have to pay the price. That is why there is so much research and money pumped into our smart technology. It is inevitable that innocents will die in a time of war but we try very hard that that wont happen and we always go in after and rebuild for the people, not the governments we toppled.

Well, you might not know, but I am no American. I am an Iranian. If you attack it is my family that is going to die. I undrestand that most of the people living in the US probebly dont care about us, if we die or live, but attacking us will hurt the people severly.

Well I for one dont want anyone in your family or anyone else to die for that matter. I think the Iranian people have a real chance of overting any war if they unite as one and demand there government to get along with the rest of the world. It is quite simple, if they give up there quest for nuclear weapons there will be no reason for anyone to attack. Furthermore if anyone does attack it would probably be Israel and the main targets will be any WMD site there may be.

The European nations as well as the US have tried to make offers so that we may come to an agreement but the Iranian government is stubbron so to speak. If they had no intention of attacking anyone they would not have to worry about the US, that is for sure. We would back them if someone tried to attack and they werent doing anything wrong. Thats what the US stands for, thats why we are all over the world. we arent there to take over. We mainly just want peace.

As for an air assault by the US, I doubt you as a citizen would have anything to worry about. It would be so fast and so precise, it would be aimed at the wmd facilities only. There would be warnings in advance as allways and with some of our new technology they would never see us coming. There would be no reason for any ground troops and therefore no reason for close air support. it would be done up from so high in the atmosphere no radar would detect them. It would be over very quickly, I think.

As for protecting our borders, that is a very large subject. We have thousands of miles of borders in the US, it is not like most other countries. I think it would be impossible to completely cover all of that real estate without creating another army so to speak. Anyway we are trying, mabe my government doesnt do enough on that issue, but like I have said before I dont agree with everything they do. I dont think the borders could ever be 100% secure.

As for other nations sharing our values and not being bombed, wow, I hope I am not getting this right. I hope that mabe I am misunderstanding your point. Because, forgive me if I`m wrong and mabe I am taking what you said out of context unintentionally although, that would be the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. What happened on 3/11 in Spain. What about the Bali nightclub bombings? They are bombing the shyt out of innocent Iraqi people for what reason? They`re not even targeting us as much as they are the Iraqi police and civilians at worship. ANd there are countless other attacks in the Philipines and other nations as I remember reading about throughout the past five years or so.

They do bomb and destroy life everywhere, these terrorists. The whole world is to worry. They care about no one who does not share their fanatical views. I am a Christian, a Catholic, attended religious schooling my whole life, and was never taught to hate anyone especially because they were of a different religion or culture. America is made up of hundreds if not thousands of religions and cultures. We dont all share the exact same views on things but we do share a common interest in keeping our people safe. I dont believe personally that it really matters what religion you choose in life. I think no matter even if one was the correct one, God loves all. And so long as we lead a good life meaning we care about others and respect each other we will be with him in the end.

These fanatics killed people I knew. They killed them for no good reason in the universe. There was no warning so that innocents could get out of the way. They didnt just bomb a military installation. They took out my friend a firefighter because he cared so much about others lives that he risked his own to protect them. Michael Lynch was one of many brave men and women who went into the towers to try to rescue those injured and those who could not get out. He died when the towers came crashing down. He was a young man with his whole life ahead of him, he was soon to be married, he deejayed my uncles 60th birthday party for us. He was a great guy and didnt deserve to die in such a violent manner.

There are thousands of other stories just like this one. Every one of them were killed for no reason. their lives were taken by fanatics who believe only their own beliefs are sufficient in life and that anyone else deserved to die. Thats not how I was rasied, i was raised to respect everyone. But I have no respect for any ruthless killer even if they stand behind a religion to blanket their deeds as good. I will never forget September 11, 2001 and all I have to say is either get out of our way in our quest to stop the terrorist bastards or beware of the consequences. War is horrible.