This is what socialized medicine looks like

a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

a reply to: ketsuko

My partner tore his rotator cuff, even though he can't get in for surgery right away, our socialized healthcare still provides him with physiotherapy, laser treatments, massage therapy, etc. to get through the pain.

Also, ...not one doctor suggested he use opiates for the pain, not was he referred to any kind of "pain management doctor", which a colleague in NY is offered each time she sees a doctor about her shoulder pain, which she had to take out a LOAN FROM THE BANK to pay for surgery because her benefits don't cover "elective" procedures.

Imagine paying interest on your hysterectomy? One of my editors does. Because of her credit history, she had to consolidate her medical and credit card bills into one payment to avoid defaulting, some would say that's her fault, but who plans on having to pay $14,000 for a hysterectomy at 30? She's paying 18% interest on her HYSTERECTOMY!

Zero. Compassion.

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

The goverment does, once you've paid your taxes that money no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the goverment and you don't get to dictate to the government how they spend that money.

If we the people could dictate to goverment how to spend that money the first thing to be addressed would be the wastage and mismanagement of those funds.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

The goverment does, once you've paid your taxes that money no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the goverment and you don't get to dictate to the government how they spend that money.

If we the people could dictate to goverment how to spend that money the first thing to be addressed would be the wastage and mismanagement of those funds.

Yeah. And the funny thing is, we hypothetically could. We just all collectively choose not to.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

The goverment does, once you've paid your taxes that money no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the goverment and you don't get to dictate to the government how they spend that money.

So much truth there, and when it comes to your life and health and well-being, that should frighten you because you no longer make any decisions where that is concerned once you've signed all responsibility for your health care over to the government.

THEY OWN YOU at that point.

Similar to private health insurance.
You put the money in a big pool. Other people use that money for health care .

The leftovers pay executive salaries, advertising (which they do a lot of!), and the salaries of of the non-execs.

Then there are the stock dividends for stockholders.
Seems to be very profitable.

Im not sure how much of a say you have in how other people use your contributions

a reply to: spacedoubt

And if everyone hates that system, why go to an even bigger one where they can compel your participation by force of law?

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

The goverment does, once you've paid your taxes that money no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the goverment and you don't get to dictate to the government how they spend that money.

If we the people could dictate to goverment how to spend that money the first thing to be addressed would be the wastage and mismanagement of those funds.

Yeah. And the funny thing is, we hypothetically could. We just all collectively choose not to.

Yes, thats why media is the way it is, we fight among each other for scraps, its all by design.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: pexx421

I guess it boils down to who pays for whos healthcare

The goverment does, once you've paid your taxes that money no longer belongs to you, it belongs to the goverment and you don't get to dictate to the government how they spend that money.

So much truth there, and when it comes to your life and health and well-being, that should frighten you because you no longer make any decisions where that is concerned once you've signed all responsibility for your health care over to the government.

THEY OWN YOU at that point.

Not exactly. I'm free to pay for private health cover if I wish to, its a choice I can make. I choose not to as the socialised health service we have here is fantastic and I have no need to pay for private cover. interestingly enough I still see the same specialists I would if I had private cover, I just have to wait a little longer and for me that's fine. now if I did have major health crisis and needed a faster service I would simply pay for it.

I find it interesting you think its better to not have a choice.

I don’t think everyone hates it.
Some like it, some don’t know any better systems.

It’s very expensive though, and it’s a for-profit.
If you’re a consumer the profit is also a form of overhead. As is the relentless need to advertise.

I use private insurance, if I were to give it a grade,
I’d give it an A+ for cold and flu, and a D- for things more complicated. I’ve navigated the complexities more times than I want to remember, payed the co-pays, the deductibles. Etc. I nearly lost everything, even with “good” insurance.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Do you have a choice not to pay the taxes for the healthcare?

What seems like a system with more choice?

One where you keep your money and chose how to use it to get care?


Or one where you are forced to pay for a service even if you don’t want it and won’t use it?

a reply to: Grambler

And to add to Grambler's thoughts:

What about the people who would like the choice to take private coverage and could afford it ... except they have to pay the tax burden for public coverage that does not suit their needs and so they cannot afford the private coverage that would?

See, we have the situation now in the US with public and private schools. Many parents who would otherwise opt to send their kids to private schools which are mainly much better can't because of the tax burden imposed to pay for the public schools failing their children.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Do you have a choice not to pay the taxes for the healthcare?

What seems like a system with more choice?

One where you keep your money and chose how to use it to get care?


Or one where you are forced to pay for a service even if you don’t want it and won’t use it?

That seems perfectly reasonable. Allow people who want private insurance to opt out and get that portion of the taxes not deducted.

a reply to: Grambler


Like you I have to pay taxes, its not a choice I get to make, since I have to pay tax regardless I'm happy to get something in return for them. Australia is an expensive country to live in but we also have a very high standard of living.

We are all forced to pay for services we dont use, and we all have #ty governments that line their pockets with our tax monies.

I have as much choice in not paying taxes for healthcare as you have not paying inflated insurance rates to pay for all the defaulters.

I actually think these conversations are great

I’m no expert on healthcare and I appreciate hearing others thoughts

Just a few quick points on why it may be different implementing a nationalized universal system in the USA

First is population demographics

I have no idea, but are the people by average older in the us than these other countries and this probe to use more healthcare? Are they more obese or prone to substance abuse?

These could affect the total cost of the care (not to say these people don’t deserve care, just saying it could impact a comparison of cost)

Then there is the question of the percentage of people that pay in taxes

Perhaps in Canada 80 percent of people make enough to pay in (not a real number just an example) but in the us the number could be lower

And then there the question of off the book people like illegal immigrants.

Do they get this care as well?

If so, there are some estimates there could be more vet 25 million illegals in this country. Thats close to ten percent of the population which is believe is way more than places like the uk and Canada

This would drive the cost of the average tax payer paying in up way more than in other countries

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Do you have a choice not to pay the taxes for the healthcare?

What seems like a system with more choice?

One where you keep your money and chose how to use it to get care?


Or one where you are forced to pay for a service even if you don’t want it and won’t use it?

That seems perfectly reasonable. Allow people who want private insurance to opt out and get that portion of the taxes not deducted.

It could be an option


The problem is this doesn’t solve the problem with that status quo

One of the reasons health care is so expensive is that so many people use the service without paying

So if you can opt out and save your tax dollars, many will, and then still need medical service that humane hospitals will be forced to give, and it won’t be paid for, this driving everyone’s costs up again

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Well that’s not true

I do have the choice not to pay high rates for insurance

I can pay in cash most places

I can not have insurance and become a dirty defaulter if I want

Etc

Not good options, but still more choice than being forced by the government under penalty of law to pay

My only point is it seems like this system has more choice

Now maybe it’s worth to give up choice for a better system; that’s would be a argument I would be willing to hear

a reply to: Grambler


I think we all want a better system, and we all want government to function as its supposed to, but that doesn't seem like an attainable goal. so you're right the system is far from perfect but lets face facts, getting government to actually represent the people they are tasked to represent is as likely to happen as it is me winning the lottery this evening.

ETA. another thing is with socialised medicine there is a good chunk of it going into preventative medicine and therapies, this way more people are back to work and paying back into the system.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Everyone on this Planet should be Personally Responsible for their Own Health . If it Somehow Fails , the Charity of Others should Not be Made Mandatory IMO .

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I can agree with that too.
I think one of our issues is special interest groups.
Insurance lobbies are huge factors in how this train wrecks.
I don’t think you and I are special enough for them to be interested.