This is what socialized medicine looks like

a reply to: VIKTORIA2020
Wow there. I think hospitals and medicine should primarily concern themselves with what they can solve. See what I said there? Solve. Not "cure" I mean we have come far in these past 200 years, to the point of when people break a leg they dont have to saw it off because it would gangrene, or other such miracles. Like when they tried to bleed out a gun shoot to get rid of the bad blood. Did not work, right.

But when you got big business, cash making, and medicine, + humans doing what they do. You know what the equals? That equals a whole lot of shenanigans.

But saying all that. I would not say mental illnesses does not exist. They exist and are pretty rampant that's for sure. I think they figured out that the placebo pills are not working all that well, so they decided to give them the pills that would keep them coming back to have a steady cash stream at the least.

Which offcourse? Well what do you expect? Doctors are not miracle workers there, they should stick to the broken bones, some surgeries, and other such stuff. You know, stuff they can fix. There just doctors after all. Leave the miracle cures to the miracle cure workers and there magic pills and bean sprouts.

And offcourse, those don't exist. Meaning what? Just more smoke and mirrors. You know theres an old saying. God helps those who help themself's. But I say, God helps nobody, and those who help themselves, well? They help themself's. I dont see why people expect snake oil salesmen to be of much help is what I am getting at.

a reply to: Atsbhct

What most people fail to grasp is that the reason healthcare is "broken" in the United States is because there is no free market in the insurance industry. What happens when you have a monopoly? Insurance is extremely limited by state. You get a handful of options....and each of those insurance companies sets rates with the healthcare industry. There was once a video around here that explained how this racket works....and why a lot of people who don't have insurance get stuck with exorbitantly high bills.

If you want to fix healthcare, the answer is not socialization...it's an open free market. Economies have proved this fact too many times to count.

a reply to: CIAGypsy

If you want to fix healthcare, the answer is not socialization...it's an open free market. Economies have proved this fact too many times to count.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes, yes YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS! and YES!

a reply to: JAGStorm

That's a sad, pathetic and disgusting thing to happen to someone who has served this country.

It makes me angry as hell - it should make us all angry.

When Trump was filling out his cabinet staff after the election, I said a number of times (including here on ATS) that the VA secretary was a critical cabinet member - especially since the VA is such a mess. I even had the perfect candidate to do it: Gary Sinise - the actor who played Lt. Dan in Forrest Gump.

He is well known for all of the charity work and fund-raising he does on behalf of veterans, very recently raising money so a wounded veteran could afford to have a "smart" house built to accommodate his unique needs after his horrific injuries. In a surprise move, it turns out that it was *very* expensive to build it out right so fundraising was going nowhere and the guy was suffering.

Once Gary Sinise heard about it, he raised the money for this guy in a few days *and* had his smart house for the handicapped built very quickly by a reputable builder! He never talks about his efforts on behalf of wounded veterans and doesn't even want thanks for it - if someone tries to thank him, he asks them to instead make a donation to a charity for wounded veterans - including the Gary Sinise foundation for wounded veterans.

www.garysinisefoundation.org...

He's smart, works hard and has a very positive high profile which would help him in his efforts and he really cares about our vets.

This *never* would have happened on his watch.

We all really need to do more to help our returning wounded servicemen and women. Even if you already do something today - please consider doing more. They really need our help along with our thanks & gratitude.

Please visit his website and see what you can do to help.

a reply to: CIAGypsy

What is this free market you speak off? They have been trying that for decades and toting it as well non stop. Has not worked so far, yet they keep propping up that paper tiger. Heathcare is not broken. Its merely operating at optimal levels given what it is composed of, and what you have to work with.

Same reason why there really is no such thing as a free market, because # floats, and boulders roll downhill not up. Both sides merely have just different opinions on something that works better for them. That is all. So people need to pick there poison already, as both cases would work equally as good for somebody somewhere out there, and be completely useless for others. And offcourse, when people are involved and interests...Shenanigans will ensue.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Germany is finding out that socialized medicine isn't helping the poor like they thought... imagine that

www.npr.org...

Another limit on the clinic's ability to meet need: a shortage of doctors willing to work in this part of town. That includes general practitioners, to say nothing of gynecologists, mental health specialists and pediatricians ― few of whom practice in the area, he adds. In theory, one could take public transit to another part of the city to find a doctor, but that involves time and money for the commute.

Health care in America is a for profit corporate capitalistic enterprise.

Should there be a free market or government restrictions?

Let the churches take care of the poor like Jesus wanted.

a reply to: JAGStorm

My wife had elective surgery on her ankle this year, to get a bone spur removed. There was a small delay of two weeks after a test was scheduled for her that she didn't need, but she had the operation and now she is no longer in pain when she walks.
No flying out of the country was required.
I owe my life to the NHS after an infected spider bite on my elbow became infected, leading to sepsis that was spotted and then treated in a matter of hours.
Total cost of the above? Some car park fees. We paid for the operations over many previous years, paying a combination of tax and national insurance contributions. It's that simple. The tax burden is not egregious. I can get treatment whenever I want. So can my wife. We don't get billed for it after.
People are getting care, they get care every day. People are not flying out, with the exception of a handful of unique cases. 99.999% of the rest of us are just fine with the NHS thank you and we don't want price-gouging greedy pharmaceutical companies coming in and trying to boost their profits by exploiting the suffering of ill people.

a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I'm sure everything you are saying is true, but Germany is telling us a different picture.
They are saying the poor are still sick.

The whole point of socialized medicine is so everyone has good access to healthcare and is, well healthier because of it.

As we are starting to see, that's not the case.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: AngryCymraeg

I'm sure everything you are saying is true, but Germany is telling us a different picture.
They are saying the poor are still sick.

The whole point of socialized medicine is so everyone has good access to healthcare and is, well healthier because of it.

As we are starting to see, that's not the case.

Sure but saying something doesn't work because you point out an example of an area its failing in is also disingenuous of you misrepresenting the whole of socialized medicine. Something as simple as placing a higher government funded recompense value to Dr's. who choose to work in impoverished areas would likely change that statistic.

a reply to: JAGStorm

I was not entirely sure what you meant by your post. If you were referring to things like this story then a careful read will show that it is not simply a case of access to free and point of contact healthcare = everyone is healthier. It is more a case of poor people in Germany living in areas where there were a host of societal and environmental factors that lead to things like lung conditions. Rich people can move away from places that have seen industrial pollution. Poor people can't, not easily.
Let me underline something. Bankruptcies due to medical bills do not happen here in the NHS, not unless you have private healthcare and then you lose your job just after a major operation. That's the only scenario where that might happen in the NHS and I for one have never heard of that happening to anyone that I or my family knows.
Is the NHS perfect? Of course not, no system is perfect. But private healthcare based on the free market seems to me to be a staggeringly bad idea. Free market means pursuit of profit. And profit-related healthcare sounds monstrous - too much room for abuse in the form of price gouging, or worse insurance companies that deny treatment on grounds of cost. Sod that for a game of soldiers.
The NHS offers a safety net. If I was hit by a bus tomorrow that also destroyed my wallet and all forms of ID I'd still get treated at the nearest hospital. A&E treatment (ER in the US) is free at point of contact and I am getting cross at all the misinformation that flies about in places. My wife's bone spur operation was diagnosed, confirmed by x-ray and an operation all booked in in a matter of weeks. It was not an easy operation (Achilles' Tendon detached, bone spur removed, tendon reattached) so they needed a specialist, hence the wait. But it was done. Some elective surgeries need specialists, hence some delays. But my blood poisoning was dealt with there and then. My sister's broken wrist? In plaster in a couple of hours. My aunt's breast cancer this year? Diagnosed, chemo booked, treatments scheduled, she's now in remission (early diagnosis is key).
Would I want to live in a place that did not have the NHS or its equivalent? Hell no. My wife comes from Oregon and we have decided that when I retire (she already has) we are NOT going the USA, not until it gets some form of sane healthcare system.
Good grief, this IS a long answer from me.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Sure but saying something doesn't work because you point out an example of an area its failing in is also disingenuous of you misrepresenting the whole of socialized medicine. Something as simple as placing a higher government funded recompense value to Dr's. who choose to work in impoverished areas would likely change that statistic.

Very interesting article worth the read:
fee.org...

This is the UK but I'm sure it fits other universal medicine areas as well

But in the last six years, 585 surgical practices have closed down, affecting 1.9 million patients. Last year alone, 138 surgery facilities closed their doors, up from 18 in 2013.....
That can cause doctors to exceed government-mandated caps and see their income taxed at 40 to 45 percent. In some cases, they end up paying the NHS to work.
Doctors respond to these perverse incentives the same way all rational actors do: by closing up shop.
Doctors respond to these perverse incentives the same way many rational actors would: by closing up shop.

Tax the rich, give to the poor only works for a short time. (even with healthcare)

Money alone won't work either. Some people just don't want to work in the poorer areas, or work with poor people.

a reply to: JAGStorm

That's an interested example. I'm admittedly not very familiar with UK's NHS, but my first thought is has anyone taken a stab at getting rid of the wackadoo incentives/penalties?

I want the same kind of health care my congressmen and representatives have...after all it's paid for by my tax dollars.

Even on the state level....


www.heritage.org...

Socialized health care for the politicians but the taxpayers are SOL.

originally posted by: olaru12
I want the same kind of health care my congressmen and representatives have...after all it's paid for by my tax dollars.

Even on the state level....

Now we're talking!
Notice how long these politicians are living, what the heck kind of care are they getting?

Look at Bernie, heart attack and back like a teenager!

Are they feeding them newborn blood or what?

originally posted by: JAGStorm

originally posted by: olaru12
I want the same kind of health care my congressmen and representatives have...after all it's paid for by my tax dollars.

Even on the state level....

Now we're talking!

Notice how long these politicians are living, what the heck kind of care are they getting?

Look at Bernie, heart attack and back like a teenager!

Are they feeding them newborn blood or what?

I don't think that's the kind of health care you want. I get the impression you want the poor to suffer!!! Lazy bums deserve what they get eh?

a reply to: olaru12

I absolutely don't want the poor to suffer. I actually believe in the long run socialized medicine will cause
far more suffering to all in the end (except the rich) This is exactly what that German article is showing.
That is what has happened with the VA and military medical.

I'm all about personal choice. I don't like my choice to be taken away.

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: olaru12

I absolutely don't want the poor to suffer. I actually believe in the long run socialized medicine will cause
far more suffering to all in the end (except the rich) This is exactly what that German article is showing.
That is what has happened with the VA and military medical.

I'm all about personal choice. I don't like my choice to be taken away.

If they offered Socialized Medicine alongside private healthcare, would you mind that some of your taxes were funding the national healthcare? In that scenario, you still have your personal choice, and the state is still empowered (regardless of opinion on effectiveness) to provide healthcare to the indigent.

a reply to: JAGStorm

That is my first argument against the FED taking over healthcare for the country... if they cant manage decent conditions for 22 million people on what planet or plane of existence am I supposed to believe they can adequately manage 330+ million.

a reply to: Wayfarer

If they offered Socialized Medicine alongside private healthcare, would you mind that some of your taxes were funding the national healthcare? In that scenario, you still have your personal choice, and the state is still empowered (regardless of opinion on effectiveness) to provide healthcare to the indigent.

It is not personal choice is they are using my hard earned money in a way that I have no choice over.
Basically you are asking, am I OK paying for healthcare twice? No