So Desperately Sad but Incredibly Angry

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Parliamentary sovereignty means that Parliament is the highest power in the land.

Parliamentary sovereignty (also called parliamentary supremacy or legislative supremacy) is a concept in the constitutional law of some parliamentary democracies. It holds that the legislative body has absolute sovereignty and is supreme over all other government institutions, including executive or judicial bodies. It also holds that the legislative body may change or repeal any previous legislation and so it is not bound by written law (in some cases, even a constitution) or by precedent.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: gortex

Yeah but you keep calling this a coup yet its not a coup.

thats all am saying, I am just trying to get away from the emotive and inflammatory language because you're calling it a coup when its not actually a coup.

So he has failed to get enough support for a general election.

Hold fast until we see what the EU does.
Already Boris has said any vote to force an election would mean no deal with the EU.
It seems that most got that message when they abstained from the Election vote.

Now the EU has said:

We are not optimistic at all that this is going to end well, and not sure the UK government has a plan.
[The situation] is quite serious. We see nothing changing, the deadline is fast approaching, and if he wanted to move the dial on the deadline we would have seen a proposal already.

He said there was no reason to talk to Boris because he can't deliver a deal in time.

They’re a minority government that is trying to deliver the hardest form of Brexit that it doesn’t have the votes for, which lets them run down a clock to a no-deal.

The EU may be desperate to keep the UK but they realize it probably isn't going to happen in the long run and that getting a deal before Oct 31 is starting to look desperate.

Maybe the EU will force the no deal. Or maybe the clock will. As of now everything is still up in the air and with the 25 day Election call in the middle of a Prorogation this might just run out.

Don't lose hope yet.

a reply to: gortex
17 million voted to leave and you cant get 100,000 protesters like HK to go into the streets and raise hell? Get off your asses and do something.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

How can the sovereign be the perpetrator of the coup.

I didn't say she was the perpetrator of the coup.
The coup was perpetrated by those in Parliament who can't accept the choice the people made when asked a question.

Parliament is sovereign this has passed with the majority of parliament, we live in a parliamentary democracy so can you please explain how that is a coup?

Its not.

You might hate that they're doing it but its not a coup, its a mess. We live in a parliamentary democracy, that has always been how things works.

Unless their are tanks on the lawn of Westminster with Corbyn marching Boris out of number 10 at gun point I don't get how you can call this coup. A coup is a over throughing off government through illegal means and none of this is illegal.

Silent coups aren't loud.

originally posted by: gortex
For months I've been of the opinion that Brexit was dead because our Lords and Masters in Parliament had taken it away through their own self interest and Cowardice , then a spark of hope as Boris Johnson became PM with a plan to deliver what the Majority had asked for ... now that hope is lost.

The treacherous , antidemocratic remainers in Parliament have seized control of Parliament bypassing the government and thwarting any effort to deliver a meaningful Brexit .... and people said this wasn't a COUP ! ....HA.

As the title says I am desperately Sad but Incredibly Angry , I know I'm not alone but what the hell can we do about it , we are but slaves paying disproportionate amounts of tax so they can live it up on their more than generous salaries while flicking two fingers at Democracy and the will of the people , we are slaves with NO say over what happens to OUR country and to be honest I'm bloody sick of it.

For me Democracy in the UK died yesterday , the Labour party and Speaker of the House are a disgrace and every MP who took part in this should be ashamed of themselves and history will record their duplicitous antidemocratic actions , what a pathetic rabble they've shown themselves to be.

It's over , we lost.

No we didn’t lose. We vote them out. It will come. Boris is actually our only hope.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin i thought it was democratically voted to leave stay if you must but take back the country's sovereignty and not be told what to do by unelected money men in brussels

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: gortex

Do you think it would make a difference if your country had
the right to the finest combat weapon of your choice?

Yes, then they'd probably have as many mass killings as your f'd up country.

Thoughts and prayers honey

a reply to: clubheadjobby

Yes, then they'd probably have as many mass killings as your f'd up country.

I just hope they keep them out of the hands of stalkers in your country.

The hyperbole of "democracy in danger" is a little misleading on both sides.
Cameron's referendum has created an abnormal situation in which there is conflict between different ways of expressing democracy.
The referendum is one way.
The House of Commons is another way.
A General Election is a third way and could have offered a casting vote- May's failed in that respect because it was run on party terms rather than pro- and anti- Brexit terms. Remainers are now against one because they think it would be a casting vote on the wrong side. As for the voters, they find their part in democracy a pain in the neck, would rather not be bothered more than it can be helped, and punished May for calling them out again without any real need.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the different versions of democracy, I think Boris is right to see that following Brexit through has a better chance of resolving the crisis than not following it through.

Nobody should try offering a referendum again without incorporating a way of enforcing the result, and so avoiding this kind of mess.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'm done mate , seen enough to convince me to no longer take part in a sham Democracy , I will no longer vote in any election as it's clear we have no voice so I for one will no longer going to participate in the sham.

This shep is going to go sit under a bush.

Don't lose faith... that's the whole point of all of this dilly dallying, they want leavers to get so fed up with all they just give up.

Today, the EU has confirmed that no extension can take place without agreement from the EU AND the UK government. Government, not parliament, ie. Boris Johnson.

For parliament to be able to accept the extension I would expect them to need another vote to take control again or something silly like that but I don't think they have time to.

Other options include convincing other EU leaders to veto the extension (hi Hungary) or just refusing to ask for one against the will of parliament. This would cause an uproar but I honestly can't imagine the law supporting a parliament trying to take control over executive proceedings and force the PM to do something against his will.

It would be humiliating for both BJ and the UK for him to ask for an extension, it won't happen. I really am very angry at the weak-spined opposition we have, pretending they are ever so brave by standing up to... what? The UK people? Try standing up FOR the UK.

They call themselves liberal - they want to remain in a protectionist racket of the richest whitest countries in the world.
The call themselves democrats - they are actively fighting to overturn the biggest democratic mandate ever handed to them.
They call themselves progressive - they are terrified of change.

What a bunch of hypocrites.

a reply to: gortex

You have treacherous whores in your parliament. Can they be voted out in the next election?

If the answer's "no", then I think democracy has pretty much died there.

It irks me to no end to see all those EU flags flying outside Parliament and OVER the British flag.

originally posted by: drussell41
You have treacherous whores in your parliament. Can they be voted out in the next election?

They think they will be voted out, which is why they are keen to put off an election as long as possible.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I'm done mate , seen enough to convince me to no longer take part in a sham Democracy , I will no longer vote in any election as it's clear we have no voice so I for one will no longer going to participate in the sham.

Wait, what? You're only just realising this now?

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: drussell41
You have treacherous whores in your parliament. Can they be voted out in the next election?

They think they will be voted out, which is why they are keen to put off an election as long as possible.

I'm sure.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
There is nothing against what parliament have done, parliament is the sovereign after all and this is all legal and consistent with parliamentary procedure.

You might not like what they are doing which is fine but its wrong to frame this as some kind of coup, it is a legal mechanism of government to take control of the agenda to debate legislation.

I also think that we need to reaffirm that its not about being anti-brexit for a lot of MPs but rather anit-no-deal, I think the attempt to frame it otherwise is just a clever ploy by Dominic Cummings and JRM to pave way for a general election that is going to be fought on the premise of the people vs the parliament.

You can disagree with them but they are only representing the views of their constituents, I mean you're calling the father of the house and the grandson of Churchill a "traitor" because they don't agree with a no-deal Brexit. To me that seems a little extreme. There is very little support for a no-deal, it is only right that parliament, the sovereign elected democratically to represent our views then would act in the best interests of the country to block this. You might call them traitors but others might call them heroic, putting their country before their party and their careers to act.

I think we all need to calm it with the inflammatory language and look at the facts.

The key one being that we live in a parliamentary democracy where parliament is sovereign, and our democratically parliament's will is to block a no-deal.

Is the EU refusing to make a post-Brexit deal with the UK? If so, that’s a blatant way to force the UK to stay. I can understand the EU refusing to make a deal as a deterrent to other members, but it would infuriate me if I were a Brit. I should think a no-deal Brexit would be equally painful to the UK’s EU trading partners.

originally posted by: ScapegraceIs the EU refusing to make a post-Brexit deal with the UK? If so, that’s a blatant way to force the UK to stay. I can understand the EU refusing to make a deal as a deterrent to other members, but it would infuriate me if I were a Brit. I should think a no-deal Brexit would be equally painful to the UK’s EU trading partners.

Not exactly.

So, Cameron called the referendum. He wanted to remain and thought he would win it easily, but he didn't and so he stepped down almost instantly as he didn't feel like the right person to lead the country out of the EU as he didn't want to leave. As an aside, at the time he took a lot of flak for this but I suspect many Brits would now look back at his decision to stand down as the last time any remain MP has shown any integrity for the last 3 years.

Anyway, for some reason, the reins were handed to another remain supporting conservative, Theresa May. Terry and the EU got together behind closed doors and seemingly overnight, produced the Withdrawal Agreement. The Withdrawal Agreement is bad. We don't really know (as it was behind closed doors) whether this was the UK or EU led, but clearly looking at how bad the deal is, it seems obvious this was the EU giving us the worst possible "deal" they could give us and still somehow call it Brexit. There are many things wrong with this deal, but primarily it still leaves the EU courts with power over our own, it still keeps us subject to any ongoing agreements and it keeps us tied in it legally until the EU decides they are happy to let us leave.

The UK would not have a say in when this happens, it would be down to the goodness of the EU to let us actually leave fully, even after Brexit date. Officially, we would have "left" the EU at this point, but it would be the softest form of Brexit and essentially keep the door open to return if we wanted (read: after another 5 year propaganda campaign). So basically this is Brexit in name only. We would still be part of all of the EU machinations until we were able to satisfy THEM that we were allowed to leave. The difference however, would be that as we were officially not part of the EU, we would get no vote or say on any of the above matters that would still continue to affect us.

It would be extremely distasteful for even the most ardent remainer to vote for this, so it was voted down 3 times. But the EU have told us that this agreement stands and will not be negotiated.

So now Boris campaigned on a platform of leaving on October 31st, "no ifs or buts, do or die". This means that he is prepared to leave with no deal at all, if the EU won't negotiate.

Unfortunately, he inherited an extremely slim majority in government, of only 2 I believe. This has now reduced to a minority of over 20. The opposition parties have all joined forces to bully the government. This is unprecedented and the height of cowardice.

Jacob Rees-Mogg made the point best, that the opposition want to maintain a government of nominal confidence. What this means, is that there are procedures for ousting a government you don't like. You can raise a vote of no confidence, but they won't do this because the leader of the opposition is a marxist fop who is hated by most of his own party and noone wants him in charge. They could call a general election, but they won't because they know they would lose to a Tory/Brexit Party coalition.

So instead, they have decided to simply obstruct and delay as much as possible to frustrate the results of the referendum, all in the name of democracy don't you know. They can pass whatever bills they like as the government doesn't have the numbers to vote them down and they are united in obstructing the government.

Now, the only way out for Boris, is underhanded tactics it looks like. Parliament has forced his hand to go back to Brussels and humiliate the country by asking for yet another extension to Brexit after campaigning solely on not doing this, which would kill any chance he would have of winning a GE if it were held after the extension.

He has some options still. He could take the extension request to the EU but say he won't agree to it. This would be murky waters, but essentially he would have carried out Parliaments will by requesting the extension. They haven't written into law that he has to accept it.

If this won't work, he could ask another Eurosceptic member state to veto the extension, such as Hungary.

Or... I think this is where I'm putting my money. He will feel he has the backing of the people of the country regardless of whether a GE has been called or not, so he will downright refuse to cave in to parliaments demands and ask for an extension. This is similar to option one, but he will look much stronger and basically FORCE the opposition to call a vote of no confidence or GE, which he will be much more likely to win after such a show of strength. Doing this would mean not sharing power with the Brexit party, who for all their hard work, still seem like a one trick pony, who would not be needed if we had already left the EU.

PHIEW!!!

Oh and to your last point - " I should think a no-deal Brexit would be equally painful to the UK’s EU trading partners. "

The EU have much less to lose than us proportionately, as they have a larger economy overall. However they have more $ to lose than us as we have a deficit with them.

However... what everyone seems to be forgetting is how much the EU has to lose politically in a no deal scenario. The ABSOLUTE worst case scenario for the EU is this -

The UK leaves with no deal and is a successful centre for trade.

Because if other countries saw how easy it could be, they would fall like dominos.

a reply to: drussell41

You have treacherous whores in your parliament. Can they be voted out in the next election?

Yes , sort of.
The treacherous whores in Parliament can be voted out in the next election whenever that comes but the other half of our legislature , the House of Lords , are not elected so are beyond public scrutiny.

I find it hard to believe that our government has weakened our hand in the build up to the most important negotiation in a generation but guess I shouldn't be surprised after the last couple of years.

Treacherous Indeed.

originally posted by: Dem0nc1eaner
He has some options still. He could take the extension request to the EU but say he won't agree to it. This would be murky waters, but essentially he would have carried out Parliaments will by requesting the extension. They haven't written into law that he has to accept it.

I still think there's another option being kept quiet for the moment;
"I'm not going to ask for an extension, whatever your law says, and what do you think you can do about it?"
It would be a mistake to say so before Monday, but it would probably be essential to say so as soon after Monday as possible, so that the EU know they can't assume his hands are tied.