Bernie Sanders: Would he really be that bad.?.?

Bernie and Trump are similar in that they both speak about the forgotten problems of Americans. Where they differ is in their solutions. Whereas President Trump wants less government (generally) intervention and more individual freedom. Bernie, however, fails to see that many of our problems stem from too much government in the first place. So his solution of more government intervention is destined to fail.

Look,

I’ve gotta say, this has been one of the best threads I’ve seen here as it relates to politics or politicians. I’ve seen contentious points from several sides of the OP and it’s been far more civil than I could have expected.

As it relates to Trump in the 2020 election, I think he is probably going to win re-election. The media is trying their damndest to smear his presidency but they haven’t done anything to Trumps voters to dissuade them.

Meanwhile the left has broken into pieces as a result of the post-Clinton era fallout. They’re tearing themselves to shreds and I’m not sure they’ll unite under one banner.of all them, the only one who I think could unite them is Bernie. Time will tell.

I just wish Trump would get off Twitter; Start being a better statesman, a better representative of the United States. He may represent 45% of America but he doesn’t represent all of America. He may not be the evil villain the media and the democrats paint him out to be but he’s no saint and not someone I want my kids looking up to.

We can do better than that. We need to do better than that. We’ve got a lot of new challenges for our country today and in the coming years. We need leadership that will actually follow through with it in the interests of all Americans.

Im going to continue to educate myself on all the 2020 candidates. If there’s better than Trump, I’ll take it. If there’s not, then 4 more years will have to do.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: pexx421

You seem to be confused as to what the trades pay? Sure, while you are an apprentice (helper) it's low, but just like with a degree, after four years it can be very high. It's been that way for a long time now. In the 70's I put my degree in a box and forgot about it because I had jobs that paid a lot better. As a journeyman in a trade I made as much as 80K in the tail end of the 70's, working industrial construction and working in the oil fields.

It's still good out there for skilled people in the trades. Where have you been? It's not at all unusual for an electrician called to work on someones home to be earning more than the person who hired them.

The trades are the quickest path to self-employment and an even higher wage. There will always be a need for people to fix things or build them.

The mechanic who fixes my vehicles over the twenty years I've known him, has opened two of his own shops and he's so busy he can barely keep up with it. He stays up to date, hires people who know how to work on new vehicles and he's done very well. Try that with a communications degree, the go to for so many kids just taking classes so they don't have to get a real job. How many graphic artists wanting to create games do you think the world can support? Plenty of both of those living with their parents.

If the open jobs in the trades were filled right now, there would be close to zero unemployment. Those kids in mom and dads basement at 30 would be working if they learned a useful trade.

Oh, I’m not saying trades don’t pay. They do. But they don’t produce economic growth. There’s no value added to increase gdp, it’s just a transfer from one citizen to another. We can have zero unemployment and high wages but if we have to import everything it’s a negative for the economy. It’s economy of scale that suffers. How much productivity or profit can a welder or plumber create in a day? An iPhone fabricator can create thousands in a day. And they bring money into the economy from other countries. Of course iPhones are made in China, and that’s my point. I made about 60k for my job today.... but it didn’t increase the gdp, in fact it likely decreased it. But if I made 20 iPhones for instance, and sold them to Europeans, then I’d be increasing the gdp by maybe 16k. Just imaginary numbers but you get it.

Thing is, that tax is a lie. His proposal was to be covered by a 6% tax on workers and businesses. I currently pay 11% for healthcare, about $600 a month, and that’s before copays, deductibles, and non covered costs. And I can look forward to end of life care sucking out all my life’s savings and leaving my family with nothing, as can most of us. That’s like a built in 100% inheritance tax on the working class. Meanwhile many of us are against socialized medicine, which will in reality reduce the cost, and often we fight against inheritance tax on the rich. Makes no sense.

a reply to: Assassin82

If you were a Communist , No .

Quite the contrary, Bernie Sanders would be the best president America has had in my adult lifetime, no question about it. How say? Because he truly cares for the plight of every day Americans, and that by far makes up the majority of our citizenship. The elite, who effectively control America today, are only a very small percentage of people. The primary with their wealth is not the money per se but the undue influence they have on policy. Money talks on Capitol Hill. And that's why Bernie is such a stand out. He is not beholden to the rich and powerful for donor money and he keeps it that way. He literally has spent his entire adult life fighting for our rights and the working class. His record is consistent thus Bernie can be depended upon to stay the course from promises made on the campaign trail to doing the best he can to rally the people to effect those policies as president. If you really want to know who Bernie is, just listen to what he has to say. You will hear the same thing today he said in 2016. Because it comes from the heart, not an opinion poll to get votes. That's not to say Bernie is perfect or you will think everything he says will resonate with you; but unless you live a privileged life, I can guarantee to 90% of his platform will resonate with you. Easily. The reason Bernie gets so much push back, primarily from mainstream media as that is how Americans are put to sleep and groomed as sheep, is simple — the rich and powerful know that Bernie Sanders is the real deal. He can't be bought out and the people who hear and understand his message will mobilize under his direction. Why? Because we know where we want to go and how to get there. Bernie is leading the charge. The power is in the hand of ordinary citizens, not the 1%. But it's divided. Bernie will bring us together to take back America, to make America a better place for ALL. The rich and powerful would rather have anyone as president than Bernie. And that is your strongest clue that Bernie is the best person for the job. Period.

Bernie Sanders 2020. Bernie's Platform

a reply to: pexx421

I currently pay 41% in taxes, that includes state and federal. My health insurance costs are less than 2% of my income. If you factor in my max out of pocket for the year for my family, it brings it up to just under 3%. Not only would my taxes go up to 47%, and only if the state didn't increase income tax (they would), but also it would drive my insurance costs up like it did when Obamacare was passed. I'm currently seeing no benefit from that 41% I'm at right now, why would I ever trust the government to handle an additional 6%? Their amazing track record?

Fix the current spending problems, I'm sure the money is there to cover a lot of this already, but is being mismanaged in such a fashion that it is wasted. Until those issues are resolved, I'd like to keep more of my money, at least then I know where it's going and how it's being managed.


a reply to: tabularosa

I've looked at his platform, I disagree with 90% of it, not the other way around.

You'll never cast a vote if you expect a politician to turn their personal wealth into public resources.


a reply to: Stupidsecrets

I had a very different take away from Bernie and Joe in the podcast. Bernie felt to me dishonest, the more exposure I have of him the more he comes off to me as being deceptive. In 2016, Bernie as a newcomer to the national stage was unique and caught my attention, following he's been less and less palitable. Joe couldn't have been softer or provided a better forum for Bernie to make his sell.

The dem field doesn't have much depth for how many are in the race. Biden really does seem "sleepy". Warren has passion, but has championed issues and solutions that I can't expect the nation to support in a general election. Harris is the lefts response to trump, she is extremely divisive, and too comfortable on her seesaw. Bernie might be the strongest contender with a real path to the White House, I just think he's wrong and grown comfortable as an INSIDER politician.

a reply to: ltdan08

a reply to: tabularosa

The "real deal" yet he is a millionaire and doesn't live by his own principals that he will force the rest of us to live by.

When he freely gives up 90% of his book proceeds and all his properties, etc...(to the greater good of the people), then I'll believe that tripe you wrote.

p.s. Was one time a Bernie supporter, but since have opened my eyes to the big phony Commie he is.

a reply to: pexx421

How you going to build those phones on a patch of dirt with no buildings or equipment? The trades are vital to our economy.

People who can assemble a phone are a dime a dozen. People who build the factories to produce them, the power generating plants to power them and the plants that build the equipment used to produce products are in short supply and badly needed.

It's all intertwined and no part of it is not needed. One thing that is not needed are politicians who promise things they know they can't pay for and know will never happen. We are literally discussing a promises Bernie made, he has no intention or ability to keep. He lies for votes, just like so many others have done before him. He's a snake oil salesman with a bad personality, nothing more.

Instead of letting random "people" on the internet tell you who Bernie is, and what he stands for, or how he plans to pay for his "free stuff", get it directly from the source, watch the podcast. And if you can't be bothered to find the link, here it is again: youtu.be...

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Wardaddy454

Labor unions maybe learn some history.

Not in America, at least.

Thank Henry Ford for it. To combat his high turnover rate, he doubled the minimum daily pay from $2.34 to $5 and then set a five eight hour day schedule.

This lit a fire under GM and Chrysler's butts to do the same, or lose employees to FoMoCo. And the big three were THE big game in the country at that time.

This is true, it also stemmed from Ford's belief that following the industrial revolution, the middle and working class had to have recreational time or they would have no need to purchase much of what the industrialists were selling. In other words, they installed the 8 hour day and 5 workday weeks to expand their customer base, not out of some mentality of socialism.

The feds arguably were working of a pseudo-socialist position when they codified the 44 hour week into law, but it was primarily to combat sky high unemployment at the end of the Great Depression. Factories needed to run 24/7 and it was preferable to pay 3 people to work 3-8 hour shifts over 2 people to work 2-12 hour shifts (or, in some cases, overlapping 16 hour shifts.) because it equaled lowering the overall unemployment numbers.

Weird because when Ford was 7 On 19 May 1869, President Ulysses Grant issued a National Eight Hour Law Proclamation.

For government workers..

Not in the private sector.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Wardaddy454

Interesting. Considering it was started before his birth and a year after his birth the 8 hour day was getting unionized in Chicago.

Maybe you should read some history.


Here is some AOC stuff...
In August 1866, the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."

This too was for federal workers alone.

a reply to: Wardaddy454

It was first for union carpenters, the government, some states,

Point is had nothing to do with henry Ford. He succumbed to the status quo.

Check your revisionists history at the door.

Grant was a union man.

www.history.com...

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: pexx421

How you going to build those phones on a patch of dirt with no buildings or equipment? The trades are vital to our economy.

People who can assemble a phone are a dime a dozen. People who build the factories to produce them, the power generating plants to power them and the plants that build the equipment used to produce products are in short supply and badly needed.

It's all intertwined and no part of it is not needed. One thing that is not needed are politicians who promise things they know they can't pay for and know will never happen. We are literally discussing a promises Bernie made, he has no intention or ability to keep. He lies for votes, just like so many others have done before him. He's a snake oil salesman with a bad personality, nothing more.

All of which is irrelevant as no one wants to build here. So you can have a whole army of tradesmen, and so long as the oligarchs that the dems and republicans support keep sending their business overseas our economy will continue to tank.

a reply to: Wardaddy454

en.wikipedia.org...


Doesn't seem like henry Ford had anything to do with it. Quite the opposite.

It looks like socialists.

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Wardaddy454

Interesting. Considering it was started before his birth and a year after his birth the 8 hour day was getting unionized in Chicago.

Maybe you should read some history.


Here is some AOC stuff...
In August 1866, the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."

This too was for federal workers alone.

Nope it was not.

In August 1866, the National Labor Union at Baltimore passed a resolution that said, "The first and great necessity of the present to free labour of this country from capitalist slavery, is the passing of a law by which eight hours shall be the normal working day in all States of the American Union. We are resolved to put forth all our strength until this glorious result is achieved."
By 1905, the eight-hour day was widely installed in the printing trades – see International Typographical Union § Fight for better working conditions – but the vast majority of Americans worked 12- to 14-hour days.

On 3 May 1886, August Spies, editor of the Arbeiter-Zeitung (Workers Newspaper), spoke at a meeting of 6,000 workers, and afterwards many of them moved down the street to harass strikebreakers at the McCormick plant in Chicago. The police arrived, opened fire, and killed four people, wounding many more. At a subsequent rally on 4 May to protest this violence, a bomb exploded at the Haymarket Square. Hundreds of labour activists were rounded up and the prominent labour leaders arrested, tried, convicted, and executed giving the movement its first martyrs. On 26 June 1893 Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld set the remaining leader free, and granted full pardons to all those tried claiming they were innocent of the crime for which they had been tried and the hanged men had been the victims of "hysteria, packed juries and a biased judge".

The Building Trades Council (BTC) of San Francisco, under the leadership of P. H. McCarthy, won the eight-hour day in 1900 when the BTC unilaterally declared that its members would work only eight hours a day for $3 a day.

Rewrite your sentence to: Would Bernie be that good!

Thus if your questioning your question, wouldn't it be easier to move on to the next potential candidate?

Think about this.

Your average lower to middle-class person who has a good job and good health insurance will not want to give that up and be heavily taxed so there could be Medicare for all. Not to mention that taxes also will be raised with Bernie’s or Warren’s free college proposals.

Not to mention, do you think a GOP Senate would pass any of these highly expensive programs?

That’s my point. That’s why, although I like Bernie and would vote for him, I don’t think he can win with those programs.

It may better to just try to get people without health insurance insured through improving Obamacare. It certainly will be cheaper.