Bob Lazar : Area 51 & Flying Saucers... The whole story.

originally posted by: Outlier13
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

...The posters prior to me are refuting the Lazar story because their insinuation is there is no such thing as ET life and therefore Lazar is a liar.

Do you mean Jim Oberg's open letter that was posted by ATS member "The GUT" (the post to which you were responding)? I didn't see any reference in that letter refuting the idea of other intelligent life existing elsewhere in the universe.

Nor have I known any other instances where Jim Oberg (also an ATS member, as many know) refuted the possibility of intelligent ETs, or claim humans are the pinnacle of life in the universe.

If I misunderstood your position, please help me understand and/or explain who it was that refuted the possibility on intelligent life elsewhere.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

originally posted by: Outlier13
Are you afraid to do some actual research? Did you watch the movie? It happened.

originally posted by: moebius
Ah yes, the classic cop out non-answer.

PS:
No I did not watch the movie, that is why I am asking.

Rather than silly smug responses, I'll partly help you out here moebius- This is what Lazar said he was told by the FBI as far as the raid and what they were looking for:
"Some paperwork... an old order from 2 years ago about a customer that ordered some potentially toxic material"

Lazars business has been raided before because of what he sells. So it's not out of the question his business being raided or being watched by the government, there's no need for a secret stash of 115. If he owned a toy shop and this happened, then there might be a good argument for it being odd.

I find it hard to believe with the level of security that Lazar himself describes of getting into the facility, that the storage and security of 115 would be so lax that he could steal even the smallest piece and just walk out. I find it ridiculous actually.

"I wonder what Bob Lazars motivation is?"
And here we are 30 years later still talking about him. Manipulative power can be a strong motivation for some people. The action of coming public every once in a while shows he's obviously getting something.

It's funny believers of this tale want you to ignore and write off something that can and has been substantiated by research, education. But they want us to believe and buy into his claimed study of alien spacecraft and so forth, which has not been substantiated given 30 years.
I get it- We're to forget the throughout research that has been done into his education because if we do focus on it, he's a liar and that speaks to his character. When it's asked what makes you question Lazars tale, THIS is one valid reason.

If you focused on the facts then you would know Bob is not a liar. George Knapp proved that Bob worked at Los Alamos National Lab by showing Bob's name in an old phone book (which he got a hold of for that Lab, and George Knapp found old associates from Cal Tech that often drove Bob to school there, plus all kinds of other additional little tid-bits that disproves all the debunker type claims against Bob.

I just watched the video and George Knapp and the rest all do a great job of digging into every possible debunking claim and prove every one of them wrong.
This is also not the first case of government programs going in and erasing a person's history when that person becomes a big problem.
The bigger question for you now is will you acknowledge the truth, or will you deny it because of your innate animosity towards Bob Lazar?

originally posted by: ParticleNode

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

I find it hard to believe with the level of security that Lazar himself describes of getting into the facility, that the storage and security of 115 would be so lax that he could steal even the smallest piece and just walk out. I find it ridiculous actually.

Has it ever been addressed exactly how Lazar got his 115 (Moscovium) sample out of S4?

1. How did he keep it on his person? In his mouth? Down his pants?

2. How was the 115 contained? I'm assuming "rolled up in a napkin" isn't the answer.

1- I've never found a description of how Lazar was able to waltz out of this high security facility with piece of element 115 stuffed in his pocket. I wonder where his shadow "Dennis" was during this time. Fired directly after, no doubt. A good question for a Lazar AMA.

2- It was said he has 3 samples of 115 that were kept in inch thick lead containers. Years ago there was another claim that 2 samples were stolen by the government. No idea of why his brilliance escaped him when finding someplace to hide these samples. Anyone with simple common sense would know a scientific supply business or home would be the first places "they" would look.

It's also questionable, with his paranoia, why he came forward with this story and even hint at stealing pieces of 115. Not the most brilliant move on his part. If he was so worried about being killed because of his knowledge, why hint at something more serious than his story, stealing actual physical evidence from the government? Something that no doubt would have had him killed. Defies logic and as the years go on, ends up sounding more like fluff added to his story.
Instead of hinting at it, stop playing games and come forward and provide physical evidence that supports the story. Evidence that would change human history.
Meanwhile, Lazar has one container sitting on his shelf gathering dust for the betterment of humanity.

originally posted by: ParticleNode

Has it ever been addressed exactly how Lazar got his 115 (Moscovium) sample out of S4?

3. What measures is Lazar using to counter radioactive emissions?

Bob mentioned in an interview that they outsourced the slicing up of 115 and that's how he got it.
I think he said that it's not radioactive when it's stable or at least, not as radioactive.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

The whole story is total nonsense.

You have a lowly contractor having access to top secret facilities. Not only that. He also manages to steal government property and smuggle it out without anyone noticing. And then he is allowed to keep it and talk about it.

If there was any actual bit of truth to it, he would have been silenced a long time ago one way or another.

originally posted by: moebius
a reply to: Ectoplasm8

The whole story is total nonsense.

You have a lowly contractor having access to top secret facilities. Not only that. He also manages to steal government property and smuggle it out without anyone noticing. And then he is allowed to keep it and talk about it.

If there was any actual bit of truth to it, he would have been silenced a long time ago one way or another.

Or consider the alternative to why he is still alive is due to his possession of element 115.

Assuming element 115 is used for the purposes as what Bob describes then he cannot possibly use it himself so what would be the purpose of absconding with it?

Reinsurance.

a reply to: Outlier13

Or maybe he never had any element 115.

Maybe he worked at Los Alamos and/or S4 doing something - but the rest of his story could still be all made up, including his alleged involvement with alien/UFO tech and all of his references to element 115.

a reply to: Box of Rain

Indeed, this is of course, a possibility.

originally posted by: [post=24031508]Outlier13[/post
Or consider the alternative to why he is still alive is due to his possession of element 115.

Assuming element 115 is used for the purposes as what Bob describes then he cannot possibly use it himself so what would be the purpose of absconding with it?

Reinsurance.

It is not even about him being alive or not.

He essentially claims to have stolen secret sh1t from the government. At the very least he and anyone else involved should end up jail. They could simply claim that he stole some "secret military material".

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

If you can really believe that for yourself, and it makes you feel better somehow thats all that will ever matter for you...

It wasn't a statement of belief, it was a statement of fact. Bob was NOT the first to discuss element 115 in public.

I proved this in this post:

originally posted by: MrRussell
Just in case anyone is still interested in the element 115 thing, here's a source for the prediction of said element in 1974.
kobra.uni-kassel.de...
Extract from the The Journal of Physical Chemistry Vol.78 No.19 [1974]

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: [post=24031508]Outlier13[/post
Or consider the alternative to why he is still alive is due to his possession of element 115.

Assuming element 115 is used for the purposes as what Bob describes then he cannot possibly use it himself so what would be the purpose of absconding with it?

Reinsurance.

It is not even about him being alive or not.

He essentially claims to have stolen secret sh1t from the government. At the very least he and anyone else involved should end up jail. They could simply claim that he stole some "secret military material".

People who believe Lazar's story often point to the FBI raiding his business as proof that his story about reverse engineering UFOs is true.

However, it seems that the FBI's interest in Lazar is due to the fact that Lazar's company sells radioactive materials. The raid was done a couple of years after 9/11, and the government was rightfully keeping an eye on companies that sold radioactive material, maybe due to those materials' potential use in a dirty bomb.

However, there is not necessarily any relation to the FBI raid and Lazar's story about alien/UFO technology or element 115, especially since the raid came more than a decade after Lazar first started talking publicly about the alleged alien tech.

Jeremy Corbell makes a big deal out of this raid, connecting non-existent dots, trying to push his films.

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: [post=24031508]Outlier13[/post
Or consider the alternative to why he is still alive is due to his possession of element 115.

Assuming element 115 is used for the purposes as what Bob describes then he cannot possibly use it himself so what would be the purpose of absconding with it?

Reinsurance.

It is not even about him being alive or not.

He essentially claims to have stolen secret sh1t from the government. At the very least he and anyone else involved should end up jail. They could simply claim that he stole some "secret military material".

That's a considerable point, however, if the government did arrest him for the "theft of element 115" then they would be admitting to an element that according to modern day science does not exist in a stable form and is unable to be manufactured in any usable quantity (at least on Earth).

I see how the argument can go both ways but why would Lazar specifically referenced element 115? Why not another heavy element with similar properties that was purported not to exist? There are endless debates on line in physics forms about heavy elements with isotopes that decay in fractions of a second and are of no use to science (on Earth).

Why 115? Is it arbitrary? Listening to his explanation of how element 115 functions is plausible since no one can offer another alternative explanation of how element 115 could be used. I also understand it doesn't confirm his story as well so I am not saying because Lazar offers a plausible explanation that means his story is legitimate. But the flip side of that coin means no one can refute his explanation either.

So back to my plausible theory of reinsurance. If Lazar does have some amount of element 115 and has safeguarded it in such a way that if he is either harmed or arrested that it's disclosure becomes imminent then the government will have a lot of explaining to do.

Better to leave him alone and just let Lazar be forever known as "The UFO Guy" and let this story carry on in its small circle.

originally posted by: Outlier13

originally posted by: moebius

originally posted by: [post=24031508]Outlier13[/post
Or consider the alternative to why he is still alive is due to his possession of element 115.

Assuming element 115 is used for the purposes as what Bob describes then he cannot possibly use it himself so what would be the purpose of absconding with it?

Reinsurance.

It is not even about him being alive or not.

He essentially claims to have stolen secret sh1t from the government. At the very least he and anyone else involved should end up jail. They could simply claim that he stole some "secret military material".

That's a considerable point, however, if the government did arrest him for the "theft of element 115" then they would be admitting to an element that according to modern day science does not exist in a stable form and is unable to be manufactured in any usable quantity (at least on Earth).

Or, as I mentioned before, they didn't arrest him for having element 115 because maybe he never had, nor had anything to actually do with, element 115 --- other than his story that might be made up.

What I mean is that if his story about element 115 (including stealing it) is made up, then why do we need to worry about why he wasn't arrested for stealing it?

Why 115? Is it arbitrary? Listening to his explanation of how element 115 functions is plausible since no one can offer another alternative explanation of how element 115 could be used. I also understand it doesn't confirm his story as well so I am not saying because Lazar offers a plausible explanation that means his story is legitimate. But the flip side of that coin means no one can refute his explanation either.

Well, his element 115 is noting like the element 115 we know about. Sure, one can say "but what if the alien tech made element 115 act like Bob Lazar says", but now we are trying to prove the negative. That is, prove that alien tech CAN'T make element 115 work the way Bob says.

And proving the negative is difficult to impossible. We can't prove that he's lying.

Having said that, there is no real reason to believe him, either.

originally posted by: [post=24032289]Box of Rain

And proving the negative is difficult to impossible. We can't prove that he's lying.

Having said that, there is no real reason to believe him, either.

Which is my point. If someone is claiming he is lying then they cannot prove the negative. The burden of proof rests on them to prove this.

I don't understand why there would be "no real reason to believe him". Aside from many other proofs which back his story the most telling one is that Lazar did take people out to Papoose Lake on 3 separate occasions to witness (and record) aerial craft making maneuvers unfamiliar with our traditional planes at the time.

That in and of itself 100% proves he had prior knowledge of scheduled tests located at a top secret base. That is indisputable.

It's irrelevant if the objects observed were of Earthly or ET origin. He KNEW when and where the tests were going to be conducted.

So contrary to your statement we have very real reasons to believe Bob Lazar. You are simply choosing which ones you want to acknowledge and which ones you do not.

a reply to: Outlier13

A dude with real verifiable schooling, says the tests that you speak of, was plasma weapons test, did you not read that debunk? I was fascinated with the story till I read it. An earlier poster linked to it. I am so humbly respectful of skeptics since I joined this site back in 03'. I was chasing my tail believing everything about the subject. Only the skeptical saved me from that nonsense lol. Here it is again. Another poster in this thread deserves the credit. Is this not easier to believe? Debunked by real Phd.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

I sort of agreed with the the statement - how was he able to walk out of a secure facility with 115.
But then I thought back to when I worked at the gold mine.
People were forced to shower, go through security scanners etc..
Yet people always got out with it.
Some people would stuff gold flakes under heir finger nails to be able to smuggle it out.
Some no doubt swallowed it, hid it in their arm pit or belly button.
Take a little bit everyday for a year and you can garner up a decent little stash.
If there’s a will, there’s a way.

Here is a fabulous radio interview with George and his "then boss" Bob Stodal (who is a legend in investigative journalism and was George's mentor at the time) that will fill in many of the questions about the reporting of the Lazar story back in the day...

George and Bob did report on the holes in Lazar's story. Nothing was beyond their purview and they held nothing back, they are professional investigative journalists of the highest order IMO.

That doesn't fill all the holes in the story, but, if you think the U.S. government was a bunch of choir boys back then-well- I'd have to disagree...

My point is I am conflicted, everyone with a brain is conflicted, those who think they KNOW, either way what this was, are just full of self confidence in their beliefs, or B.S. from either side.

I'll shut up now but, please listen to this interview, it changed my mind again...

knpr.org...

a reply to: Springer

GK did an excellent interview with the Paracast in 2009 - Paracast George Knapp (March 15 2009) It's been years since I heard it.

He covered the arrests, the mysteries and explained why he couldn't quite be certain about Lazar being a hoaxer. A lot of members have no idea about the personalities back then so it's also a good way to get an idea.

I've followed the UFO subject for years now, but for some reason, never really looked much into the whole Bob Lazar thing until this documentary.

One of the areas used to debunk him repeatedly is his education and lack of academic records at the universities he claimed to attend. But it now seems like they also tried to erase the records of his time working at Los Alamos. Fortunately, it seems that they (whoever 'they' are, made a complete mess of this. So it seems pretty likely that someone is altering / wiping his records in an attempt to discredit him. If they will wipe his employee records at los Alamos, then we can assume they'd do the same at the universities he attended. It really wouldn't be hard to do.

I went to university and graduated, but hardly any of my classmates would recognise or remember me - I attended the bare minimum that i could without being kicked out.

So i don't think this is a conclusive reason not to believe the story.

And having watched the documentary (much more interesting than the shockingly poor Skinwalker film, incidentally), i found Lazar to be quite believable. I recommend the film to you all to judge for yourselves.

a reply to: vance

LOL...that "dude" you are referring to has been around for a very long time and makes one of the poorest contradicting arguments attempting to refute Lazar's story. He's been referenced on ATS for years in this story and he carries zero credibility with offering a viable alternative story to Lazar's.

Maybe you should re-read the link you sent. He offers nothing but conjecture relative to the physics and he offers nothing in the way of facts to refute Lazar's story. He literally makes up a less believable story than the one Lazar offers.

Like his theory that Lazar made up the UFO story to cover for a particle beam test. So let me get this straight. Mr. "real PHd" thinks Lazar actually did work at S4, possibly had a Q clearance from Los Alamos, actually did work on some high level secret project at Groom Lake, but wanted to prank John Lear so he took him out to witness the tests (which BTW...don't remotely resemble the appearance or behavior of particle beams) but then made up a story that what they were witnessing were UFOs as a cover to the actual research which supposedly had to do with a particle beam?

Whaaaaaat????!!!! Are you serious?

And the non-believers want to say Bob Lazar's story is unbelievable? LOL. This guy takes most of what Lazar tells and then replaces aspects of the Lazar story with alternative theories. That literally makes zero sense. He cannot believe and disbelieve Lazar in the same breath. His debunking style is classic COINTELPRO handbook 101. Paid shill. Nothing more. He mixes in some even wilder theories, tries to impress the reader with a shlt ton of technical discussion around the topics thus implying he has credibility and expertise around the subject effectively making you believe his story.

Sorry mate...if we are comparing story's....Bob Lazar's is better told.


EDIT: Want to know the first sign of a shill? When they start a vomit session by saying this:

"I really don’t want to be writing this as I have way better things to do."

Yeah...ok. Then why do it?