the TRANS debate

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: rickymouse

What about boob jobs? Maybe those should be banned too? They're tricking people.

A lot of men love seeing a good boob job. These are normal men that are looking at breasts of a person born a female. You will not see a normal man looking at a boob job on a trans because you are still looking at a man. Normal (not gay) men don't stare at tranny boobs...sorry.

WRONG..oh so wrong. "traps" are looked at by straight men alot.and some Trans are so good looking they even make natural women look ugly.
Im gender dysphoric,and when i was younger wanted to get my body changed to fit my brains thought patterns. I dont have any desire to have a man either, Part of my condition makes me dislike my masculine bodys appeareance. Thats why alot of us want to have a "sex change" Yes we all know we cant change our DNA,but legally and by scientific standards we are dictated MALE or FEMALE by our SEX ORGANS.

People dont get this that GENDER is MENTAL and is not our Sex organs. Havent you all noticed on job applications it ask SEX and not gender? Why? because GENDER is MENTAL alone.

a reply to: yuppa

People dont get this that GENDER is MENTAL and is not our Sex organs. Havent you all noticed on job applications it ask SEX and not gender? Why? because GENDER is MENTAL alone.

That makes no sense at all.

a reply to: Zrtst
If I'm still alive in a hundred years I will assume my entire body and being will be replaced with nanoparticles that can swirl in the air like a cloud, technology-permitting/inshaludicrous

a reply to: AthlonSavage
They're being used as a pawn to be slaughtered.

a reply to: Astrocyte
I never claimed it was purely genetic. Besides, humanity has evolved as a whole and not as individuals. By "whole" I actually mean tribe versus tribe. By "versus" I mean that they unknowingly were in competition. Over thousands of years, hunter-gatherers having neighboring tribes as allies would slowly take over. If, for example, 5% of the population was gay or trans in one, and only 2% in another, it may be that an ideal ratio of homosexuality within a population was reached at 5%, since the other 95% succeeded better as a "whole" tribe. Maybe there is a percentage that is too much, of say, 45%, where society is not having enough children. It would also not be surprising if there was a range in bisexuality as well. All of this is hypothetical and may not necessarily be completely genetic, but there must be genetic components that allow for it. This has been around forever. The science is not settled.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: Thejoncrichton

You did not read what I wrote. I mentioned several times that I don't believe someone can identify as an animal. You are not debating. You have not read what I wrote. Your comment should be deleted.

What are you babbling about, i am an animal, f(SNIP), fight, eat, sleep, rinse and repeat.

a reply to: solve

Oh great, now for another tangent debate about the difference between humans and animals. How about ......... fire? Ability to throw? Bradycardic response? I'll be back, this seems fun.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: cynicalheathen

I was asked a question that I answered several times; I was not silencing debate.

But should a trans-woman should go to a male prison? Should doctors be allowed to let them die? Should they be put in mental hospitals while a billion people believe that they eat Jesus crackers every Sunday unquestioned?

Is english not your first language or are you like 12...?

I'm actually asking, no offense.

A good working definition of mental disease is if the person is so unhappy, so frequently, that it affects their ability to function in society.

Trans people score as wildly unhappy in surveys and studies. So unhappy that many of them are willing to undergo pretty much irreversible surgery and huge social isolation for the anticipated relief of living as the other sex you can argue about the psychology of gender all day long, but what they are doing in reality is misleading everyone else by implying sex, not just gender... the whole point is to pass as the other sex, as the OP mentioned how beautiful trans people can be. The goal is not to look like Fred Flintstone in Wilma's dress, but to look like a model or actress.

It's not healthy as a society to pretend like mentally ill people are actually healthy. It's not helpful for the person who has dis-ease. If someone thinks he is Napoleon, or Jesus, does it make us hateful bigots if we refuse to bow and scrape, or supply them with a battalion of Hussar cavalry? (How come nobody believes they are a peasant in Medieval downtown Europe, growing cabbages for a living? It's always Cleopatra or Napoleon. It's never a janitor from Hoboken...)

I know that we are trying to have an open, classless society. (All we have achieved is a society without class)

I know that I have no right to be offended.

But with no social norms, there's no society. If we assume that cops are "no better" than the criminals they try to arrest, then suddenly nothing is really wrong any more. And if no sexuality is really deviant.... then disrespecting someone else's gender becomes less of a wrong thing....

And if we are not supposed to be sexist, why are trans people allowed to be sexist? I mean, the male-to-female goal is always the Marylin Monroe archetype; it's never "Large Marge, the Trucker". Isn't that still men being sexists about their feminine ideal. Do they get a pass for being trans, but if I want to copulate with that same feminine mystique, I'm somehow sexist? Like, it's ok to imitate it, just not desire it.

God forbid we should expect anybody to be normal. Because normal is the new bigotry, right? We gotta worship at the margins, revere the fragile, celebrate anything that isn't boring old success.

Yeah, it's getting pretty late.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
Animals have been known to engage in homosexual activity, so this is not an unnatural tendency of “evil” mankind.

I've read a few studies over the years about experiments being done on animals and them coming to the conclusion that environmental pollution was the cause of abnormal behavior in animals like exhibiting homosexual behaviour.

So I tend to hate seeing animals being used to explain it as being normal.

"See this boy panda tried to hump another boy panda! Proof human homosexuality is normal!"

Yeah that's not how science works.

Could you provide some evidence to back up the claims you're making?

Even to an article like this one:
Mercury Poisoning Makes Birds Act Homosexual

Otherwise your claims are nothing but opinion and not really a good way to have a debate.
Unless we're just basing that debate on feelings and our opinions and nothing else?

originally posted by: AtomicKangaroo

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
Animals have been known to engage in homosexual activity, so this is not an unnatural tendency of “evil” mankind.

I've read a few studies over the years about experiments being done on animals and them coming to the conclusion that environmental pollution was the cause of abnormal behavior in animals like exhibiting homosexual behaviour.

So I tend to hate seeing animals being used to explain it as being normal.

"See this boy panda tried to hump another boy panda! Proof human homosexuality is normal!"

Yeah that's not how science works.

Could you provide some evidence to back up the claims you're making?

Even to an article like this one:
Mercury Poisoning Makes Birds Act Homosexual

Otherwise your claims are nothing but opinion and not really a good way to have a debate.
Unless we're just basing that debate on feelings and our opinions and nothing else?

You misread the study. The study clearly says that pollution can disrupt hormonal development.

It does not say that pollution is the sole cause of homosexuality.


So if trans people are victims of societies pollution which some could be, what does that change?

O think of people were talking down syndrome parents and people not yo use bathrooms, or their feelings aren't real people would see the bigotry.

Since this fits in a religious wheelhouse it is treated differently.


Apparently God doesnt like transgender people.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: Robotswilltakeover
Currently, doctors can literally and legally sit there and watch a trans-person bleed to death in front of them, and deny any treatment simply because they are trans.

Proof? Yeah, that's what I thought.

That one obvious and blatant lie nullifies any value this thread may have potentially had.

PLONK.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: pointessa
A trans-woman I know very well personally needed a catheter in an emergency situation. I was told that about 5 or 6 doctors refused to treat her until after being rushed to 3 different hospitals that finally a nurse was willing to help her and save her life. That nurse was actually breaking the law by saving her life because it was only supposed to be a doctor or a doctor supervising. I don't think the nurse actually got in trouble, but the doctors were not even questioned at all because it was within their right legally to refuse treatment. That happened just a few months ago in a fairly liberal urban area, not rural Alabama.

Proof? Yeah, that's what I thought.

a reply to: luthier

Apparently God doesnt like transgender people.

I am afraid this is what has happened.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
I believed that too before I met trans-people and did more research. Why do you believe it's a mental condition?

When a boy believes they are a girl or a girl believes they are a boy - I mean really believes it - it is a mental disorder for the exact same reason that someone who believes they are a flying monkey.

And yes, it is essentially the same thing, and no amount of 'disagreeing' will ever change that fact.

Again, no one is questioning someone's right to believe this about themselves, we are simply not going to pander to their delusion.

originally posted by: Dae
For such a tiny minority of people, trans are sure stomping on rights of others, women's and lesbian/homosexuals.

Ahem - not just women, lesbian and homosexuals. When they cross the line into trying to pass laws making it illegal to disagree with them, they are stomping on the Rights of everyone (even those who would otherwise choose to pander to their delusion).

You know, I used to actually feel sorry for people like this.

The more radical, aggressive and confrontational they get, the less compassion I have for them, and right now, I'm approaching ZERO.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: rickymouse
So what if someone wants to repair their cleft lip?

...sigh...

What a ridiculous false analogy. Reach much?

Let us say that sex-changes become banned. What about the people who have already had the sex-change surgery? Should they be rounded up and put in mental hospitals? What should we do with them? Can doctors refuse them treatment?

Again with the lie that doctors can refuse to treat them.

Oh - unless you are upset because Doctors do have the Right to refuse to actually perform the sex change surgery, and you are taking that to an extreme to falsely claim they can refuse to treat an injury or medical emergency and 'let them die'.

If so, you are in worse shape than I thought.

Are they considered people at all?

Of course thy are... they are mentally ill people, who deserve far better than they are getting from our current social structure.

It is precisely the pandering to their delusions by our current social structure that has created this mess, and the only cure is to stop pandering to their delusions.

but what is the solution? I don't think it's actually a scam. The scam is the media making a big deal of this to use trans-people as a pawn in a larger game.

finally! We agree on something.

What needs to happen is that the media needs to grow some balls, and admit they were wrong and that trans is a mental illness, and these people need compassion and help, and pandering to their delusions not only doesn't help, it has created the mess we are in now.

I think that some people's brains are hormonally trans and now that there is freedom to admit it, people are finally coming out. But most of them don't want special treatment; they just don't want to die.

Wow! I agree again (with your first sentence)... but the right thing to do is to treat the hormonal imbalance. I personally believe that the vast majority of what we are seeing now is caused by the chemical soup we eat, live in and breath every day.

and before you come back with 'but there have been trans people since the dawn of time', while that may be so, it should be painfully obvious to see that dosing such people with pre-existing issues with all of the hormone mimickers/disrupters could be enough to push them over the edge of sanity to the point they not only actually believe their delusion is real, they 'feel' the need to try to force others to pander to it.

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

how about chimpanzees using human made machetes, or spears that they have made themselves, gorillas building bridges, ants farming mushrooms, or bears just sitting around enjoying a sunset, the list is too long to write..

And by the way, falcons use fire to push prey on the move, they carry burning twigs and embers on their beak, and set fires, then its just a waiting game.

Bradycardic response? Please, proves nothing, besides dolphins have it.

Humans are not more advanced than any other species of animals, just different.

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

I've been following your thread, trying to figure out a couple of things; 1 -- What exactly you wish to debate, and 2 -- Are you ignorant to the many disturbing underlying issues of the current trans activism or just gaslighting us?

All adults have the same natural and inalienable right to free will, to do for ourselves and by ourselves with or without other consenting adults. We all have a right to equal application of the law.

So the only real issues up for debate are the demands of trans activists upon the rest of us, AND the appropriate treatment for gender dysphoric kids.

Regarding gender dysphoria itself, I don't believe there is just a single cause, but rather a combination of factors, both inherent (nature) and environmental (nurture) that can be physical, mental, emotional and/or spiritual.

So what exactly do you want to debate?

a reply to: luthier

No I didn't misread the study, it was just an example to show that if you're going to make claims you need to back them up.
I could no doubt find more in depth studies if I could be bothered.

As for God, well that never enters the equation for me as I'm not religious.
Still I stand by my claims it's a straw man to just say 'some animals show gay behaviour ergo it is normal in humans too' without any science to back it up.

Now for me personally I won't treat a trans person any differently than anyone else, just as I wouldn't someone with down syndrome.
Although do you treat someone with down syndrome or say something you consider a mental illness exactly the same way as you would a regular human being. (going by what most would define as a normal person.)
I can say a Labrador and a Pittbull are both dogs. But nobody bats an eyelid when I point out the differences between them.
Weird we cannot do that with humans though hey......

Any way, I treat people based on how the behave as human beings. Now where I probably would hit some hiccups is if I see a man in a dress or a woman in pants, I am not going to turn around and say that man is a woman or that woman is a man.
I might tolerate something, but it does not mean, or should not mean, that I have to accept it as normal.
I'm not going to be forced to use pronouns etc. I am not going to change my own personal views just to make someone else happy because well that right there is a two way street.

You identify as trans and you want me to accept you're a woman?
Well equally I want you to accept I do not agree that you are one and that I do not consider it normal.

This is the problem with so called equality. People tend to want it to go one way.

"You must do what I think, feel want. Accept reality as I choose to view it. But I do not have to do the same back."
It's all about what I want. Me the individual. Forget the majority, forget what most want think and feel.
If you do not accept everything I demand then you are a homophobe, you are a bigot, you are intolerant...... I will ruin you!

Maybe those who want tolerance should give it. Lead by example.
Maybe peoplem should stop being so selfish and thinking of themselves and think about the whole community.

I hate clothes. I want to walk around naked. After all I was born that way. But I do not. Why? Because I consider how my choices whether beyond my control or not impact others.
My decisions should not have a negative impact on you within reason.

I'm also at my core polyamorous. I can fall in love with more than one person at a time. But I do not act on it because my wife is not polygamous and I respect her thoughts and feelings.

Compromise and flexibility are needed for any form of social interaction to work. So a society to work.
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.” as Mr Spock put it.


But let us put it into some better perspective here.
Me wanting to walk around naked and to be polygamous yeah? You know how many gay and trans people I have met so far who when I bring up my 'born this way' traits have supported me?

ZERO.

So I must accept they have same sex relations. But they are intolerant of me wanting multiple romantic partners.
They go ewwww when I talk about wanting to walk about with my junk in the breeze. And I'm not necessarily an ugly man from what I get told.

Seems a little hypocritical doesn't it?

Just as it seems hypocritical to tell women that despite most of them being uncomfortable with a man in a dress being in the places they feel most vulnerable, toilets and change rooms, they should suck it up because probably less than 1% of the Earths population feels what their comfort and desires is more important than about 49.55% of the planets population.

Who decides whose feeling and opinions matter more?
Where's the real equality and tolerance?
Who gets to pick and choose what is or isn't a mental illness?

There was a user on here recently, schizophrenic. Said they stopped taking their meds. Oddly enough I don't recall too many people telling them it was fine, they were born that way, people should just accept them for who they are.
Not even the ones who would of done so had they posted they wanted to cut off their penis and take female hormones instead.
Nope, it was all urge them to get help and back on the tablets.

Sorry most people (not all) want special treatment when they cry about wanting equal rights etc. Nothing else.
Well you have equal rights. You can equally use the men's toilets just as any other man can.

Where does it stop? When do people have to take responsibility for their actions and choices?
You give people what they want and what is the result? They want more and more and more and god help you if you do not give into their demands and people unsurprisingly eventually get get sick of it.

Why does this reaction to bad behavior surprise any supposedly sane and intelligent adults?
Perhaps it is because they're not as sane and intelligent as they like to think they are?

Who knows.

End of the day, as I said, for a society to work the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
it never works or ends well for anyone when the opposite is true. History shows us this.
You can scream as much as you want about being a real woman. But it's not going to change the fact your not and that most people can see it with their own eyes.

And the more you bully and harrass people to go against their own nature and the norm, well all it does is come back and bite you.

Be gay. Be trans, but just shut up and be it. But most of all live with all that comes with it like we all have to do regardless of how we are born.
Otherwise if you force it on me, bring it to my attention, then you best be prepared for some feedback because you want attention I will give it to you, but probably not in a way you want.

Seriously, might go start a movement for better treatment of tall left handed people. We're oppressed and mistreated too. What next? Ginger Headed people rights? Stop the hate crimes against freckles?

We've all got our cards to play. Just some of us, and thankfully the majority at that, 'man up' and get on with life and deal with the hand we've been dealt.

Heck might go walk around naked. Will I have your support?

End of the day comes down to do as you'd be done by. You want people to be nice and understanding. be nice and understanding back.
Stop thinking trans, gays, blacks, jews etc cannot be racist, phobic, intolerant, bigoted and all those other fun buzzwords.

Can I be outraged every time someone calls me a breeder or CIS? If not why not?
Because my biology means I must be immune to feelings hurt?

Yep. Really difficult to see it all for what it really is hey.

There's a reason this species keeps going around in circles and it's not because of the planets rotation or orbit that's for sure.

gee, sharks bite other animals and people.

ergo it would be normal for me to go around and take a bite out of people because if animals do it, it's normal and natural.......

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

It would also not be surprising if there was a range in bisexuality as well. All of this is hypothetical and may not necessarily be completely genetic, but there must be genetic components that allow for it. This has been around forever. The science is not settled.

That little scenario you fashioned of one society having gays or trans really skirts the whole issue of "how" people become that way. Since identity isn't present at birth, and is learned and assimilated through interaction with others, it makes sense to posit a 'template' which moves from 'self-other' interactions in early life, and based upon these interactions, self-regulation is established. Identity issues would still not come into play before the self-other dynamics generate a generalized anxiety disorder/affect regulation disorder (i.e. depression), and its likely from this 'substrate' that identification issues emerge.

The science also seems pretty clear. MIT press and Oxford press are full of titles that philosophically "unpack" the meaning of causation; of course, and as was obvious to late 19thand early 20th century thinkers (Peirce, James, Dewey, Mead, Whitehead etc) its genes+environment. The 'gene' part has elements that go back very far (Hox genes determine plan) and elements that are constantly changing as a function of environmental information i.e. the nervous system (neurons).