the TRANS debate

Firstly, for those who would like to know my bias, I’d like to state the following examples:
I DO consider someone who identifies as a cat or dog to have a mental disorder.
I DO consider anyone who thinks that the Archangel Gabriel told a Bedouin who told his wife who told her family that everyone needs to walk around a magical stone or they will burn in hell for all eternity to have a mental disorder.
I DO consider anyone who gets panic attacks or makes decisions based on their horoscope to have a mental disorder.
I do NOT consider someone who questions that carbon dioxide will destroy all life* if we don’t give the UN all of our money to have a mental disorder.
I do NOT consider that someone** who never chopped off a head and is accused of chopping off heads by people who don’t like them to have a mental disorder.
I do NOT consider that someone*** with XY chromosomes who has negligible amounts of testosterone wanting to wear arbitrary cultural clothing of women to have a mental disorder.
*Most plants that humans and other animals need for survival evolved when CO2 levels were over 1000ppm. At 400ppm life is starving for more CO2. Imagine Freeman Dyson saying, “400ppm! You gotta bump those numbers up! Those are rookie numbers! I want my earth at least … 1000ppm.”
**People who don’t like some French politician accused her of being like ISIS. That politician posted a picture of ISIS and asked something like, “Whose head have I chopped off?” The same people who don’t like her are accusing her of having a mental disorder.
***Why don’t I think a “biological man” in a skirt is necessarily crazy? Here is why:

People are generally born XX or XY. This is not necessarily important until later in life. At puberty, the males and females generally have the typical brain and hormones of their gender, most of them have sexual desire for the opposite sex, and the males must impregnate some females or the population will become a dead-end.

Sometimes they have a similar brain and hormones of their gender, but their sexual desire is toward the same sex. This is called homosexuality. Assuming that an individual is a pure homosexual, they are unlikely to breed, but assuming they are accepted by their society they can contribute to the success of their extended family. Societies have often evolved as a whole and not as individuals, and homosexuals as a minority in society could still help their society succeed without breeding.

Animals have been known to engage in homosexual activity, so this is not an unnatural tendency of “evil” mankind. It may not necessarily be completely genetic, and there may be a range in bisexuality as well. Regardless of genetic or environmental factors, it does not seem to be contagious. Given complete sexual freedom, most people are still not homosexuals, and therefore it is not threatening to collapse society.
An even smaller minority of humans are trans, given that they have sexual freedom in their society. Again, it does not seem to be contagious, and even in sexually-free societies, only a small percentage of humans want to live their lives as the opposite sex. But what does it mean “to live your life as the opposite sex” and where does this originate from? Is it biological or cultural, or both?

Biologically, humans were not born with clothing on, so clothing people to choose to wear is a cultural phenomenon, as well as how people bathe, or how different cultures use the bathroom or outhouse. Biologically, humans are generally born with XX and XY chromosomes, but in people who identify as trans, there are other biological steps beyond this. The XX and XY chromosomes are “set-in-stone” before the evolution of the brain in the fetus. Different genes and hormones make their impact at different steps, so that, for example, a “biological XY” person has a brain that works more similar to that of a female than a male, and often the hormones make attempts to alter their “typical” levels to lower testosterone, “feminize” the body, and/or alter the “typical” sexual desires of their biological XY chromosomes.

Trans-people have existed in a phenomenally wide variety of cultures throughout history and pre-history. In modern India, the Hijras are traditionally castrated biological males. They have existed continuously as a part of South Asian society for thousands of years. After castration, the males lose testosterone and generally become more feminine, such as losing facial hair, growing breasts, having wider hips, voice changes, and so on. They are generally considered by the local population to be a third-gender, more similar to female than male, but they do not experience menstruation or pregnancy. In more modern times, better surgeries are available than simple castration. I am assuming that the best surgeons are quite expensive. Whatever surgery they can afford, it is best to have it before male puberty is complete; in other words, to avoid extra facial hair and masculine features. By “best” I mean that the Hijra’s goal is to be as feminine as possible, so castration is ideally done as soon as the individual is mentally adult enough to make such a decision. I do not think a 12 or 13 year-old should be making decisions on castrating themselves, but an 18 or 19 year-old should be able to make that decision for themselves, because the longer they wait the more testosterone (even if lower than average for a male) will influence their look. In other words, it is difficult to “pass” as a woman if the transition began in their 30s or 40s.

In addition to the Hijras of South Asia example, there are vague equivalents further east in Asia. Many societies in Africa uninfluenced by Christianity and Islam also have equivalents of what we call trans. Historically, the entire Middle East before Christianity and Islam had trans-people. They were often considered a sacred class of people, much like in parts of Europe as well. In the Americas, trans-people had existed from North to South America. It was even tradition in some societies that boys would lose their virginity to a trans-woman.

Today in America, a small minority of people identify as the opposite gender from their simple biological XX or XY. To legally change their gender, they must see psychologists for years, have the approval of 2 PhDs, have their hormone levels checked regularly by doctors, live as the opposite gender full-time for years, and are generally in the process of surgically altering their genitalia. This is not the same as a man putting on a dress and going into a female-only bathroom. I live in a socially-liberal area and know many trans-people. I have never met anyone who identifies as a cat or dog. Occasionally there may be a cross-dresser, which I would put into a different category than trans-people. Cross-dressers obtain thrill from appearing as the opposite sex and do not actually identify as the opposite sex except on specifically planned and short-term experiences, nor do they generally have any goal of changing their legal gender.

Sports, in my opinion, are a silly relic of human competitiveness, and I don’t personally care if trans-people are banned from sports, or if a separate category are created for them. I don’t think most trans-people care as well. Most of them just want to live their lives without their lives being threatened. They DO feel threatened. A trans-woman will worry that even ‘post-op’ they might be sent to .....

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

.....

A trans-woman will worry that even ‘post-op’ they might be sent to a male prison if they broke the law and be disproportionately raped by all the testosterone-filled men trapped in cages. They are worried that if they go to a hospital for something like a ruptured appendix that no doctor will treat them because they are trans, and they will be left to die. They are worried that their passports will be revoked, so that even if they feel threatened in America they don’t even have the opportunity to run away to another country. They worry that theocratic politicians will force trans-people into mental hospitals while those same politicians believe that earthquakes are caused by making the white Jesus angry at eunuchs.

If you still think that a man is a man, and a woman is a woman, what does that even mean in terms of how they live their lives? Did nature create clothing or did humans? Did nature create separate toilets for men and women or did humans? At the very least, are trans-people really threatening to society, or is society threatening to trans-people? You can use suicide statistics all you want, but actually go out and talk to trans-people. Hear their stories, and stories of other trans-people they know, and you’ll see that it is generally society’s attitude (and often their own families) that are what create the biggest problems for them. I don’t think children should make sex-change decisions for themselves, but if an 18 year-old can vote and join the military, they should be able to decide if they want their testes or not.

I’m obviously not a Democrat, nor trying to influence elections. This is about how we as humans treat non-threatening humans who are different in some way. I don’t care if people get face tattoos, implant horns into their skull, or whatever other bodily modification they decide because it’s their choice and there is no threat to me. If someone wants to alter their genitalia because their brain’s hormones are closer to the opposite gender, and it matches better, to me they’re just trying to be more Fung Shui with their bodies. A cleft lip might not kill someone, but they have surgery to alter the lip because it makes their life better. A trans-person’s life might be better if they get a sex-change surgery. I don’t think it’s a mental disorder. Please, debate. I’m open-minded.

Trans-people have existed

In that, trans people are just people with a mental condition that tells them they are something they are not.

I don’t think it’s a mental disorder. Please, debate. I’m open-minded.

It's good to be open minded, but not so open that your brains fall out. It is undeniably and objectively a mental disorder. Just because one feels they are something, does not make it so. If they feel they are a horse, are you open minded enough to believe they are a horse?

a reply to: Thejoncrichton

You did not read what I wrote. I mentioned several times that I don't believe someone can identify as an animal. You are not debating. You have not read what I wrote. Your comment should be deleted.

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

So if someone doesn't agree with you, their speech must be silenced? That is not debate either.

As far as trans people go, I really don't care so long as they're informed adults making informed decisions about their own lives and bodies.

I do consider it to be a mental illness. I am all for people feeling and believing in whatever way they choose, but to what extent do the rest of us have to participate in their delusion?

a reply to: cynicalheathen

I was asked a question that I answered several times; I was not silencing debate.

But should a trans-woman should go to a male prison? Should doctors be allowed to let them die? Should they be put in mental hospitals while a billion people believe that they eat Jesus crackers every Sunday unquestioned?

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: Thejoncrichton

You did not read what I wrote. I mentioned several times that I don't believe someone can identify as an animal. You are not debating. You have not read what I wrote. Your comment should be deleted.

Your thread should be deleted. There is no "debate". Only one you imagine in your rambling.

See? No debate. It real for those who are.
Took me 6 sentences...

Great post. You could also mention the gay frogs. Lots of wildlife is being effected by the chemicals we dump or try and recycle out of water plants. Who knows how much is effecting the child in utero creating a change in rate born.

Also as we collide with technology there will be a point it doesnt may we which gender. The further we travel from nature the more we are creating forces evolution and who knows what the side effects are..

Ultimately people who are afraid of transfolk have cultural rejections they guise with 3rd grade science.

As we edit Genes and merge with computers I doubt gender will matter.

In the other side the forced pronoun game is not the way to go.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: cynicalheathen

I was asked a question that I answered several times; I was not silencing debate.

You stated that someone's comment should be deleted. That's silencing debate.

But should a trans-woman should go to a male prison?

Take a DNA sample. XX - female prison, XY - male prison. Simple.

Should doctors be allowed to let them die

Last I checked, doctors take an oath that kinda keeps them from doing that, regardless of someone's gender identity.

Should they be put in mental hospitals while a billion people believe that they eat Jesus crackers every Sunday unquestioned?

In both cases, the person's beliefs don't make them a danger to themselves or others, so no. Only those who clearly present a threat should be involuntarily committed.

Should the majority of people be forced to believe in the Abrahamic God because it's generally accepted to do so?

Should the majority of people be forced to participate in transgender individuals' perception of themselves?

Or can we all be adults, live and let live, and understand that we all have opinions and we will likely disagree with each other?

a reply to: luthier

I do believe in free speech, so I don't think it's 'hate speech' to mis-gender someone with 'offensive' pronouns ..... just for the record.

And yes, chemicals in the environment can alter our hormones, and in 100 years we'll probably be blended with machines and barely human anymore.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

As far as trans people go, I really don't care so long as they're informed adults making informed decisions about their own lives and bodies.

This is pretty much how I relate to the issue as well. It all gets to confusing for my old hetero training to comprehend. I prefer to take people at their word on how these urges play out within themselves.

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

I was just putting that out. Not saying you didn't believe in free speech.

If conservatives just said don't force me to use your pronouns and left it at that it would be fine.

Getting into crotch checks for bathrooms is 1984 stuff. Hey guys a dude with large breasts and womans clothing at the urinal isn't any less weird for your kids. In fact it's probably a bit more strange. I don't care either way as long as you use the bathroom as it should be used.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

I would disagree on DNA testing for prison populations. They should be based on hormone levels and genitalia. You're basically saying that a 'post-op' estrogen-dominant trans-woman (who looks like a beautiful young woman with a vagina) should be thrown into cages with testosterone-filled men. This is a reason why they are scared and threatened.

And as far as I know, doctors can currently deny dealing with trans-people ..... I will check on the laws though. I think you were correct years ago, but they changed the laws more recently.

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

I don't care but i'd just like to point out doctors and medical professionals disagree with you.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

www.psychiatry.org...(PDF link)

I'm not going to put much more effort into this because your arbitrary opinions on what is or isn't mental illness makes my brain hurt.

a reply to: dug88

Gender dysphoria and trans doesnt mean the same thing.

Kind of like how some people don't have PTSD after combat. Not everyone is distressed about their gender identity.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

You stated that someone's comment should be deleted. That's silencing debate.

Debate begins with paying attention to the points of debate with which one is debating.

OP's very first statement of OP's position was clearly stated. The reply in question clearly demonstrated that the reply was not based on reading even the FIRST point of discussion as presented by the OP. Hardly a debate. Hardly even a discussion.
One might as well say, "I believe the sun does not rise in the West'' and be replied with '' do you believe the sun rises in the West?

a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

Currently, doctors can literally and legally sit there and watch a trans-person bleed to death in front of them, and deny any treatment simply because they are trans. I don't actually think Trump cares; he's just trying to make sure he gets the Christian vote. Trump actually changed the Miss Universe pageant years before becoming president so that trans-women can join the competition, so I don't think he has a personal problem with them; it's all just political.

I have also seen a monkey “bate” in front of children, and eat their own feces with people watching them. Neither of these are acceptable (in most circles) by humans. The animal argument is a poor one. Iranian leader Ahmahdinejad said there are no gays in Iran, so there’s that.
As far as sports, if the trans community didn’t care then they would win that bike race in the men’s category wearing a dress! That would be something.
Or win an MMA match wearing a rainbow leotard whipping a tattooed up Alpha male. That would be something.
If a female takes steroids and fights females that’s cheating. Men are just cheating under the umbrella of feelings right now and it’s wrong.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

.....

A trans-woman will worry that even ‘post-op’ they might be sent to a male prison if they broke the law and be disproportionately raped by all the testosterone-filled men trapped in cages. They are worried that if they go to a hospital for something like a ruptured appendix that no doctor will treat them because they are trans, and they will be left to die. They are worried that their passports will be revoked, so that even if they feel threatened in America they don’t even have the opportunity to run away to another country. They worry that theocratic politicians will force trans-people into mental hospitals while those same politicians believe that earthquakes are caused by making the white Jesus angry at eunuchs.

If you still think that a man is a man, and a woman is a woman, what does that even mean in terms of how they live their lives? Did nature create clothing or did humans? Did nature create separate toilets for men and women or did humans? At the very least, are trans-people really threatening to society, or is society threatening to trans-people? You can use suicide statistics all you want, but actually go out and talk to trans-people. Hear their stories, and stories of other trans-people they know, and you’ll see that it is generally society’s attitude (and often their own families) that are what create the biggest problems for them. I don’t think children should make sex-change decisions for themselves, but if an 18 year-old can vote and join the military, they should be able to decide if they want their testes or not.

I’m obviously not a Democrat, nor trying to influence elections. This is about how we as humans treat non-threatening humans who are different in some way. I don’t care if people get face tattoos, implant horns into their skull, or whatever other bodily modification they decide because it’s their choice and there is no threat to me. If someone wants to alter their genitalia because their brain’s hormones are closer to the opposite gender, and it matches better, to me they’re just trying to be more Fung Shui with their bodies. A cleft lip might not kill someone, but they have surgery to alter the lip because it makes their life better. A trans-person’s life might be better if they get a sex-change surgery. I don’t think it’s a mental disorder. Please, debate. I’m open-minded.

I agree with you. The only part that I would have a problem with in regards to trans people is putting someone in prison with their preferred sex that has not gone through the hormonal and physical procedures, as was recently done in England with dire consequences. Stating that you want to be another gender is not enough. The other alternative would be putting the trans person that hasn't done anything in isolation in the preferred gender setting. The same goes with bathrooms, there is just too much room for unsavory people to exploit this.

Your example of medical care doesn't seem like a possibility in the US unless a doctor wants to loose their license. The passport thing is the responsibility of the user. If someone has changed genders and name they ought to update their passports to reflect that. It would be irresponsible of the government not to check out someone that appears to be a different gender than the passport says. No discrimination, just doing the job.

originally posted by: Robotswilltakeover
a reply to: Robotswilltakeover

Currently, doctors can literally and legally sit there and watch a trans-person bleed to death in front of them, and deny any treatment simply because they are trans. I don't actually think Trump cares; he's just trying to make sure he gets the Christian vote. Trump actually changed the Miss Universe pageant years before becoming president so that trans-women can join the competition, so I don't think he has a personal problem with them; it's all just political.

I want you to provide me with one valid example of a doctor watching a trans person bleed to death while doing nothing because they are trans. Back up what you state as fact. Find me one example.