Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

a reply to: shooterbrody

There's BREXIT supporters in the current government who would bring it down if it didn't go ahead in some form. That and 17.4 million people who voted for it.

a reply to: Flavian


Like Govts have ever stuck to their Manifesto pledges/promises?

a reply to: ScepticScot

You may be right and I actually think you are but the politicians shouldn't worry about the press they need to worry about the damage this will do if they go for a second referendum on the leave/remain vote. I'm predicting that if a second vote comes through politics in this country will completely change. We will see millions of people not bothering to vote. I'm am against a second vote on an in out basis but a deal or no deal basis I'm fine with. Anyone calling for a second vote, a vote on the deal that isn't deal or no deal, are looking for a backdoor way of over turning the results.

I said before, they had forty years in the EU with the last vote and that was their slice of democracy, and even that vote was on something completely different than what the EU now is. We want our slice of democracy and demanding a redo on a public democratic vote isn't democracy.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: Flavian


Like Govts have ever stuck to their Manifesto pledges/promises?

Then you get to vote them out at the next election. It is a basic of democracy, although i do completely understand your pessimism!

This whole thing should never have gone to referendum. If Cameron wanted to raise the issue, it should have been part of the manifesto. Instead, we are left with Theresa May dealing almost daily with Brexit and its consequences instead of actually running the country, like the PM is supposed to do.

The whole thing is a political cluster#.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: oldcarpy

wait a minute....
the brexit referendum was not legally binding?

No, referendums carry no weight in UK law. They are not enshrined in law so can be completely ignored. As such, they are completely worthless.

so then if the sitting government does not want to brexit why would they?

Really asking that question?

What would happen if a sitting government went against the democratic will of its people?

how is wanting another vote any different than the government just not enforcing the non legally binding result of another?

a reply to: Flavian

Maybe but this whole thing has been festering for decades, we didn't vote to enter it in it's current form and were given no say in all the expansions of it's reach and powers. Let's just get out quickly and move on, we're best rid of it and it's protectionist policies.

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: oldcarpy

wait a minute....
the brexit referendum was not legally binding?

No, referendums carry no weight in UK law. They are not enshrined in law so can be completely ignored. As such, they are completely worthless.

so then if the sitting government does not want to brexit why would they?

Really asking that question?

What would happen if a sitting government went against the democratic will of its people?

how is wanting another vote any different than the government just not enforcing the non legally binding result of another?

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

I think though a second Brexit referendum is unlikely, like I said in the OP at best I think it should be delayed to allow for more negotiation.

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: oldcarpy

wait a minute....
the brexit referendum was not legally binding?

No, referendums carry no weight in UK law. They are not enshrined in law so can be completely ignored. As such, they are completely worthless.

so then if the sitting government does not want to brexit why would they?

Really asking that question?

What would happen if a sitting government went against the democratic will of its people?

how is wanting another vote any different than the government just not enforcing the non legally binding result of another?

Because it was portrayed from the start as asking the British public how we should engage with the EU - remain or leave. It was never made clear to the public that referendums carry no legal weight. And sadly, most people didn't realise as people are ignorant about how politics actually works. And that isn't an elitist viewpoint or anything, simply a matter of fact. Just look at the amount of amazed Brits that didn't realise a referendum wasn't legally binding.

If you are going to hold a referendum of constitutional importance, people should be aware of the facts. This was just a fudge and we are now where we are - in a mess on all sides.

Lets just get it over with.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: oldcarpy

wait a minute....
the brexit referendum was not legally binding?

No, referendums carry no weight in UK law. They are not enshrined in law so can be completely ignored. As such, they are completely worthless.

so then if the sitting government does not want to brexit why would they?

Really asking that question?

What would happen if a sitting government went against the democratic will of its people?

how is wanting another vote any different than the government just not enforcing the non legally binding result of another?

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

I think though a second Brexit referendum is unlikely, like I said in the OP at best I think it should be delayed to allow for more negotiation.

But to be fair we don't really know what the consequences, good or bad will be.

I voted leave and a couple of years later, I am still waiting to leave. We should sack all the current public servants, of all parties and elect some people who are capable of doing the job that they are paid to do.

originally posted by: biggilo
a reply to: Flavian

Maybe but this whole thing has been festering for decades, we didn't vote to enter it in it's current form and were given no say in all the expansions of it's reach and powers. Let's just get out quickly and move on, we're best rid of it and it's protectionist policies.

Can't disagree with that. I am and was remain but we just need to get on with leaving now. Maybe the politicans and the general public will learn from this but when it comes to politics i can't say i am hopeful of that.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

lol
ok i am confused
"the will of the people has changed" but you need another non legally binding vote to prove that?

are there anti brexit protests going on over there?

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

lol
ok i am confused
"the will of the people has changed" but you need another non legally binding vote to prove that?

are there anti brexit protests going on over there?

Pro and Anti Brexit protests.

a reply to: Flavian

The whole thing is a political cluster#.

Agreed, but if you were to take out the word "political" then I would agree even more.

a reply to: shooterbrody

Not really, there's 'establishment' funded protest movements but the average person just wants it done regardless of what side we were on, look at what flavian just said.

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

lol
ok i am confused
"the will of the people has changed" but you need another non legally binding vote to prove that?

are there anti brexit protests going on over there?

Loads, now there are some pro-brexit counteprotests also going on but there has been a pretty substantial building in momentum among the British people to push for a change in Breixt policy. Remember the Scotland and Ireland both voted to remain, and there were only ever really about a million or so votes in it. The split was something like 52% to 48%.

Lots of people think that it should have been mandated that only a supermajority should have the power to win a change, but that didn't happen either.

So yeah, actually quite a solid basis for saying that the will of the people has changed.

originally posted by: biggilo

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: Flavian

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: oldcarpy

wait a minute....
the brexit referendum was not legally binding?

No, referendums carry no weight in UK law. They are not enshrined in law so can be completely ignored. As such, they are completely worthless.

so then if the sitting government does not want to brexit why would they?

Really asking that question?

What would happen if a sitting government went against the democratic will of its people?

how is wanting another vote any different than the government just not enforcing the non legally binding result of another?

Because multiple votes are possible, the will of the people can change and given that we now know much more about the consequences of Breixt there is a very strong argument to be had that the will of the people has changed.

I think though a second Brexit referendum is unlikely, like I said in the OP at best I think it should be delayed to allow for more negotiation.

But to be fair we don't really know what the consequences, good or bad will be.

errr yeah we don and its looking pretty darn grim.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

It's pretty complicated but the whole 'northern Ireland voted remain' thing isn't as true as it is made out to be.
The anti BREXIT protests are all establishment funded protests not some sort of popular protest.

If you think about it.
The government asked and was told by 17 million plus people that we want out of the EU.
Now, if the MP's manage to stab us in the back and not take the country out of the EU, what does that say?
Democracy is only going to be used when the sheep vote the right way?

If Brexit is derailed, why should anyone who voted to leave (and was on the winning side of the vote) ever pay taxes, obey laws, do anything for the dictatorship, ever again?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

There will be a second referendum, onlt this time it will be fixed to remain and after reading all about how much difficult it will be to move about Europe, i'm thinking of switching my vote to remain anyway.