Taiwan trembling with fear as dragon arms itself

Originally posted by Odium
Odd if America’s so interested in Taiwan’s independence “Late last year, then secretary of state Colin Powell warned Taiwan not to seek independence and said that US policy favored its "peaceful reunification" with China." Interesting quote.. www.lanuevacuba.com... (Hong Kong, still democratic as it hasn’t been fully handed over to China and it also has its own private Parliament to the Chinese one.)

Originally posted by IAF101
Answers:
1. USA doesn't want problems in the region and Taiwan repeatedly declaring freedom would just rile the chinese who might do something impulsive
2. The Hong Kong parliment is just a show put up to satisfy the hongkongers (isn't that what they are called isn't it ??

) and more than half of the members are appointed by China.

So 1. they're willing to trade democracy for the 'greater good' and 2. you have no idea about how H.K. works.

Originally posted by Odium
Also maybe it’s just what I’ve seen, but aren’t more and more people getting annoyed with the fact America gets on its high horse of ‘democracy’, when it is willing to trade with nations who are far from democratic? How they are willing to fund terrorism, genocide, etc, till their needs are meant? You might of not noticed this, but the way America’s portrayed in the media of the U.K. it’s not this beacon of democracy loving people.

Originally posted by IAF101
The interests of the greater good are always taken into consideration like in afganistan - support to the taliban was given so they could drive the soviets out of that geopoliticaly important region, pakistan- support is given to mushraff because he is one of the most liberal figures in pakistan and with him gone it would fall into the hands of fundamentalists.

"The interests of the greater good"? What are you going on about now? If they cared about the greater good, the first Gulf War wouldn't have ended and leaving 500,000 kurds to pay the price, Vietnam being another.

I can keep listing times when America have stopped helping the 'greater good'.

Originally posted by Odium
Actually, a lot of things are about the money. Remember America blocking French goods during the Iraq War? Changing the name of things such as “French Fries” to “Freedom Fries” money is one of the key elements to the World.

Originally posted by IAF101
Come now! do you really believe that ?! How much does Iraq contribute to France's exports?? Almost insignificant! They were worried that French weapons may be smuggled into iraq as the french were suppling high tech weapon to Saddam, [ATS has a thread on this look it up] inexchange for oil.French Connection

France's exports? They blocked France exporting goods into America! They tried to turn public opinion against the French. Not French exports to Iraq, because legally they were not doing that. Stop taking things out of context to try and form your arguement.

Should the U.S. get involved? No.

Maybe they should look at their own Nation - the ruined economy, the way they lie to the people, the fact it’s not a democratic system of election.

List goes on.

Maybe once they establish democracy, abolish the whole electoral system and have it so it’s a solid public vote they can force democracy on Nations who are doing fine with out. Maybe once they stop making promises to small oppressed groups, getting them to go to war and leaving them to be slaughtered they can force democracy and freedom onto people.

America is a hypocritical nation. It has no right to ‘Police’ the World. A lot of Countries do not want the hypocritical treatment of these American administrations. It’s about time they go back to their ‘laissez-faire’ politics. The way they do it now will only cause a lot more problems for them in the long run.

Maybe they should look at China as an example? It took them less then 50years to grant equality, freedom, right to vote in regional assemblies, etc…etc… instead of saying one thing and doing another or look at the way they’re changing the nation - harsh reforms that’ll get rid of their dependency on oil and help increase their lifestyle, housing, farming, ‘clean’ power.

Or we can let America pollute the world and force their views on other people. A lot of the world’s not ready for equality - if anything, the American Government and its people should remember this and look back at their own passed.

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
How much hard data do you have? The performance of the B-2 has only been ESTIMATED so far. For the S-300, it might be able to shoot down a B-2 . All this are also just your 'beliefs' too,you know?

How would the S-300 ' might be able to shoot down a B-2 ' ?? As far as the common man is lead to believe the b-2 is completely stealthy(i.e around 98% to all electronic means of detection). How can the S-300 which uses conventional modes of detection even begin to engage a stealth bomber ? If you can prove any method through which the B-2 can be brought down only then will this rant be entertained.
If you want to 'ESTIMATE' the B-2's performance, you could go to IRAQ or Afghanistan or the dozen other sites that the B-2 has been used and Estimate its effectiveness and the leathality without bias. As for the hard data on the B-2's you can get in touch with the, 509th Bomb Wing(ACC)([email protected] or call (660) 687-1110) and they'll be glad to tell you all its specifications in detail and might even send you the blueprints so you can build one at home!

[edit on 13-3-2005 by IAF101]

Look,the B-2 has only been used in 4th world countries where their military is mainly post WWII Russian stuff and they can't tell a MiG from a A-10.

Totally unbiased you say? Coming from an American bomber wing I wouldn't trust their sources,likewise you wouldn't trust a Russian/Serbian source that says they can track B-2s.

S-300 uses conventional ways of detection? Please,don't just tell me that,give me a source,or tell me you tried to fire one before. There are no S-300s in either Iraq/Afghanistan,and the Isrealis haven't captured a S-300 yet,so tell me how you know this.

remember B2 is a "stealth" aircraft not an "invisible" aircraft.

Basically it's as easy to shoot down as the next plane... it's just harder to find

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Look,the B-2 has only been used in 4th world countries where their military is mainly post WWII Russian stuff and they can't tell a MiG from a A-10.

heck, even the F-22 is post WW2, what kind of time frame is that I think you mean 2nd or 3rd gen because the iraqis had migs and SAM's and all that the AAA they could get from Russia before the Gulf war. If you want to see US stealth capability then the russian would know it the best as they have been its intended victims

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Totally unbiased you say? Coming from an American bomber wing I wouldn't trust their sources,likewise you wouldn't trust a Russian/Serbian source that says they can track B-2s.

OMG! You actually thought of calling the 509th and ask them about the B-2!! That was supposed to be rhetorical!

Originally posted by W4rl0rD
S-300 uses conventional ways of detection? Please,don't just tell me that,give me a source,or tell me you tried to fire one before. There are no S-300s in either Iraq/Afghanistan,and the Isrealis haven't captured a S-300 yet,so tell me how you know this.

Well they don't use magic do they now! How can you track a B-2?, even if you can spot it visually in the night by some miracle you would still have to fire a missile at it wouldn't you? What would you use, an IR misslie?? Even if you get an ground to air laser guided missile it would be useless! Don' t tell me that the Siberians have developed something that can attacks dark shapes in the night sky!!
I actually don't know what exact system they employ in the S-300 but it would obviously be one of the conventional methods like radar, IR etc. But I know that its capabilites are known to the USAF and they know its useless against the B-2. The URL I posted is not getting displayed, so go to google and type S-300 missile system and clickon the second link


[edit on 13-3-2005 by IAF101]Here

[edit on 13-3-2005 by IAF101]

Originally posted by Odium
Should the U.S. get involved? No.

The question shouldn't be- Should the USA get involved but rather will the USA get involved and to what extent? I don' t think their are any who can tell the US what it should and should not do!

Originally posted by Odium
Maybe they should look at their own Nation - the ruined economy, the way they lie to the people, the fact it’s not a democratic system of election.

Maybe other people don't know squat about America!

The Economy is facing a fisical deficit but it is going to be halved in four years time, that what Bush has pledged as a policy goal and so it will be. The situation is improving with a rise in the GDP growth rate and increase in the employment rates. America has suffered economic depression before(1920's) and the economy is stable enough to take any eventality.
Greenspan says:
Oh, BTW our economy is still NO1!
The Chinese never lie to their people they just kill them and say nothing about it because nobody can question them Remember Tiamen, Remember Tibetian massacer, Remember the so called 'cultural revolution'. I think it would be better to lie to people than to run tanks over them, don't you??
www.petitiononline.com...
www.rangzen.net...
How many massacres in China

Originally posted by Odium
Maybe once they establish democracy, abolish the whole electoral system and have it so it’s a solid public vote they can force democracy on Nations who are doing fine with out. Maybe once they stop making promises to small oppressed groups, getting them to go to war and leaving them to be slaughtered they can force democracy and freedom onto people.

I can assure you that the electoral system in America is just fine and the result declared was also just as in many parts the vote was electronic and the results cannot be tampered, unlike in china where they don't bother about electing representatives to form their government. Democracy and Freedom can never be thrust upon people it is an inherent urge of humanity to be free and all the nations that the US has freed are thankfull of their freedom and truly understand the values of freedom and democracy. Standing up for the Freedom loving people is not only our duty but also our moral right, we support all those who stand united with an urge for freedom and Liberty. Everybody deserves the right to decide their future and democracy gives them that freedom, the right to choose!

Originally posted by Odium
Maybe they should look at China as an example? It took them less then 50years to grant equality, freedom, right to vote in regional assemblies, etc…etc…

Yeah right follow the Chinese example!Great example to follow, where you slaughter millions of your citzens! You want people to be run over by tanks and for America to start some poor excuse for revolution and start massacering millions who oppose the government so that we can grow just like China, isnt that nice! NOT . Its not the destination that is important its the path that leads to the destination. China isn't doing something unique, Japan also had and economic boom in the 60's and grew at 8-9% annually and here they are now, just because China is growing at a rapid pace now doesn't mean that they are going to be no1.

Originally posted by Odium
A lot of the world’s not ready for equality - if anything,
the American Government and its people should remember this and look back at their own passed.

So you prefer a world where somebody lords over you and treats deprived people like dirt ! You mean to say that people actually want somebody else to discriminte against them and treat them like second class. I think that even communist countries don't stoop to those levels, equality is one of the basic tenants of communism and is deeply rooted to democracy and the US.
Your view that some countries don't want Equality, Freedom & Liberty is completely misinformed . If people in Taiwan didn't want to be free they wouldn't be spending millions on defending themselves from chinese attack would they? And the same goes for HK, they wanted to have democracy so that they still have a say in matters even if Communist China was taking over!
If you have opportunity to go to a democratic nation you can find out how strongly we all feel about our freedom and equality , as for the US we were one of the first nations to abolish slavery and grant equality to the black community. We also know for a fact that it is our duty to respond when freedom is threatened and the same will happen in Taiwan. If china decides to use military options the US would be forced to retaliate with due force to ensure stability in the region and the preservation of peace and freedom.
Ulimately the Chinese people are going to ask for democracy its just a matter of time and then even the communists won't be able to deny it to them any longer.


[edit on 13-3-2005 by IAF101]

ehm...

In 1807, Britain became the first European nation to ban slavery. However, since Spain and Portugal did not follow the same rule. African slaves continued to be sent to countries in South America until near the end of the 19th century. Britain attempted to stop slave trade by trying to intercept the ships with war ships (off the west coast of Africa). When successfully intercepted the Africans were shipped back to Africa in the areas of Liberia ("Liberty") and Sierra Leone (Freetown) in West Africa, which was established by US and Britain anti-slavers as haven for freed slaves.

But the end still was yet to come, because in spite of the efforts to end slave trade slavery continued to be practiced in the Americas. The British freed slaves in the Caribbean colonies in 1883. Then the French abolished slavery in the American colonies soon afterwards. Slavery was not abolished in the US until 1864. Cuba and Brazil were the last countries in the Americas to abolish the practice of slavery in the late 19th century.

allfreeessays.com...

Originally posted by Lucretius
ehm...

In 1807, Britain became the first European nation to ban slavery. However, since Spain and Portugal did not follow the same rule.blah..blah..blah...

Here is your response:

.....as for the US we were one of the first nations to abolish slavery and grant equality to the black community.....

ONE OF THE> not ONLY!

IAF>

yes... but they were not exactly quick off the mark about it

certainly nothing to boast over

users.erols.com... - Not valid. It's proven that the Gulag system in Russia killed over 40million. So how do they count 20?

www.rangzen.net... - Yes, they killed a few thousand people in Tibet. So what? I can document the American Administration killing over 40million people.

www.petitiononline.com... - Chinese Government killed 8 people by accident? How many people have Ameirca killed by 'accident' in Iraq?

Originally posted by IAF101
Your view that some countries don't want Equality, Freedom & Liberty is completely misinformed.

What about Israel? Segregation in Schools. Zionism is taught, their superiority over Arabs and it's all backed by the American administrations - passed and present.

Originally posted by IAF101
If you have opportunity to go to a democratic nation you can find out how strongly we all feel about our freedom and equality , as for the US we were one of the first nations to abolish slavery and grant equality to the black community.

I live in a Country with real democracy. Maybe you should try it? Instead of having one which is ran by an out of date 'electoral system' wich isn't democratic. Since it's not always the public who put someone in power. Now is it?

Also one of the last to abolish Slavery, also one of the last to give the vote to blacks and to stop segregation and inequality. (Segregation was still happening in the 1970's.)

Originally posted by IAF101
We also know for a fact that it is our duty to respond when freedom is threatened and the same will happen in Taiwan.

Stop with the bull. You sound like a bad 'Democracy for All' advert.

Originally posted by IAF101
Ulimately the Chinese people are going to ask for democracy its just a matter of time and then even the communists won't be able to deny it to them any longer.

Where do you get this idea from? After watching several BBC shows last week, all recorded in China well... it painted a different picture to what you keep claiming.

Originally posted by IAF101
The question shouldn't be- Should the USA get involved but rather will the USA get involved and to what extent? I don' t think their are any who can tell the US what it should and should not do!

I was giving my opinion based on a question ghostsoldier asked back on page 5.

Originally posted by IAF101The Economy is facing a fisical deficit but it is going to be halved in four years time, that what Bush has pledged as a policy goal and so it will be.

Budget

Read though that. Bush's budget will only put America into more debt. He won't even put the costs of the Iraq War on the final budget. Yep, let us trust that.

Originally posted by IAF101
Democracy and Freedom can never be thrust upon people it is an inherent urge of humanity to be free and all the nations that the US has freed are thankfull of their freedom and truly understand the values of freedom and democracy. Standing up for the Freedom loving people is not only our duty but also our moral right, we support all those who stand united with an urge for freedom and Liberty. Everybody deserves the right to decide their future and democracy gives them that freedom, the right to choose!

Vietnam. Gulf War 1. Afganistan. List goes on. I can name more places America harmed then helped.

Originally posted by IAF101
Yeah right follow the Chinese example!Great example to follow, where you slaughter millions of your citzens!

Native Americans.
Jim Crow Laws.
Executive Order 9066.
Joseph McCarthy.
Operation Overcast, Operation Paperclip.
"The Slaughter: An American Atrocity is a book that breaks a news story...exposing the massacre of over 1200 black soldiers on a military base in Mississippi during WWII. The perpetrator: the United States Army." The Slaughter by Carroll Case.
I can go on.

It's a shame America did all these things, then maybe - just maybe, you could say how China's awful for doing a lot less!

China's a better Nation then you'll give credit. Maybe you should visit it and have a look?

I've been to both, American ( N.C.(Boone), N.Y.(City) and T.X(Houstan)) and China (Beijing.)

Every time people diss China, they just gotta bring up all the wrong doings of the past and stupid things which they overemphasize.

What about you Americans, how many millions of aboriginals have you killed directly or indirectly? Their mistreatment, left to die in the middle of no where, pushed off their land. How many millions of Africans have you used as slaves, killed them, mistreated them, abused them? Is KKK so pretty? Aren't they Americans?..............

Every country did their bad, America included, don't act like China's the first one to ever do irrational things.

How about re-direct your attention back to the original topic, maybe?
Taiwan trembling with fear as dragon arms itself

Continued off-tracking will result in the topic being closed.
Thank you.



seekerof

What is China even doing that would want to make Taiwan become "independant"?

I dont think it would make any difference to the way the people are living in Taiwan, if they were to become independant... If anything - it would be on paper ownly...

Well, it's official....

edition.cnn.com...

Taiwan declares independance, and it's Chinas legal right to initiate an asskicking of epic proportions.

It's funny that China would implement a law to do this.

In the good old days, it would just be;

"You go independent, i will attack you".

The implementation of a law seems to be following western tradition.

Originally posted by rapier28
In the good old days, it would just be;

"You go independent, i will attack you".

The implementation of a law seems to be following western tradition.

They have to these days, because so much hypocritical buracratic BS has to go on for anything to be done... That why it takes so for any of the worlds problems to get solved...

Taiwan does not tremble...

ROC can win the war easily

just unite with China, war over, Taiwan wins, people of Taiwan wins, in fact, no war!

liberty, prosperity and peace achieved, so easily, it's stupid for anyone to choose otherwise

Originally posted by white_raven0
just unite with China, war over, Taiwan wins, people of Taiwan wins, in fact, no war!

No!!!! ... That would be to sensible white_raven0 ... Instead they want to start World War 3 - just because they have Uncle Sam whispering in their ear...

what's with the "anti-sucession" law anyway ??