UK 6th Generation Fighter Named - Tempest

a reply to: Zaphod58

Still curious how one gets from *gee too many messages* to *Russian SPY!!!11*
How could anyone ever disprove that?
Sometimes a horse is just a horse.

a reply to: mightmight

Because we've been through this before. It's not "too many messages" to "RUSSIAN SPY". It's many factors that lead you to believe someone is working with someone. Things like the average person asks a question once or twice and if they don't get an answer they drop it. They don't keep asking it off and on over the next year plus. A horse may be a horse, but you don't build trust easily, and blowing up someone's inbox repeatedly isn't how you do it if you want even a remote chance of being answered.

Well if i'd work for someone nefarious, i wouldnt start with blowing up someones inbox, would i?
These accusations dont add up. Either he is a "spy" or he's just too enthusiastic. An enthusiastic spy? Come on.

*goes off flooding inboxes as to not getting accused of being a spy myself*

a reply to: mightmight

Don't do the exact opposite of what he says now we know you're a spy
Straight to gulag for you.

a reply to: Woody510
But thats the whole point of the spy business!

a reply to: SpeedFanatic

Ok SpeekFanatic if you say you are not then I'll lay off! If you are not and I suggested you are "spying" then I'm sorry. I'm not going to argue about it. I'm not in the military nor have I ever signed an NDA. My interest in mystery aircraft stems from having a giant plane the size of a Concorde fly over back in 2001 that sounded like nothing I've ever heard before - which I've described. Regarding the VSTOL aircraft sighting, that was an "acquaintance" at a bar blabbing about it and I have no idea if that person signed an NDA or held any kind of clearance. If there is a Brilliant Buzzard TSTO and that's what I saw, other people have claimed to witness it in broad daylight over Atlanta, landing at Nellis, etc.

There are websites that have a bunch of aircraft design trademarks/copyrights and one looked like a Star Wars speeder from Empire Strikes Back and that's what this guy described. I'd assume that any trademark on the net can't be that sensitive or top secret! My guess is if he was telling the truth and not exaggerating, it was an undisclosed company prototype of some sort. I would also guess that some of the online trademarks were built as demonstrators (or at least subscale demonstrators). I think people have a right to know more about where their taxes go. If there is something as secret as the black triangles out there, then I'm guessing it's not going to be revealed on here. I also don't think people should try to pry something out of someone who has signed an NDA or has some kind of clearance.

I like forums like ATS, Secret Projects UK, etc., because they are places for aviation nerds to go report a sighting or something that you hear about. If someone really has a clearance and signs an NDA, they should not be posting on here nor talking about "top secret" stuff at a bar in front of other people. I have "talked" with a few people that worked in the Cali desert and at the Nevada Test Ranges that have a said a few things I would never post about. Does that mean they are telling the truth? I don't know, but for them, I wouldn't chance it.

a reply to: mightmight

And where exactly do you think they train new people? Throw them straight into the deep end, or on a fairly harmless message board to begin with? No one is exceptional when they first start.

That being said, we HAVE seen good and bad agents here before. Being overly enthusiastic is almost as bad as they are. If you ask a question and don't get an answer, move on. Sometimes even a "shut up, I'm not answering that" leads to "but how about just this part of it" and it's even less likely you're getting anything ever.

With an open mind, imagination, analytical skills, and access to the WWW, you don't really need to be chasing individuals down via private message on this message board. Some of the information I've seen on here is more than enough.

I only heard about Tempest in 2019. A news story cropped up about how it'll "lack a cockpit" - i.e. a virtual cockpit...

a reply to: Zaphod58

Sorry for blowing up your inbox, I swear to God I'm not a spy!

But yeah, that user set off my spidey sense too, with the incessant PMs, the way he asked questions, and the stuff he seemed particularly fixated on.

As to Chinese/Russian fastmovers, do they even have any? I was always under the impression that the USSR had neither the budget nor the materials science to accomplish anything truly interesting, which was why they bankrupted themselves trying to copy the Space Shuttle, their other attempts at fast stuff were underpowered failures like the M-50 Bounder or the Suknoi T-4 and they ended up sticking with kludges like the Mig-25 recon variants and technologically conservative U-2 clones like the M-55 and that concept where they may or may not have given an Il-28 Beagle the WB-57 treatment. Beyond that, I always assumed that the closest thing the Russians ever built to a "fastmover" was some of their bigger anti-ship missiles like the Granit or the Kitchen.

China, OTOH, I'd assume has probably tested a few hypersonic testbeds or missile designs, but again, given their struggles even building an F119-tier engine for the J-20, I'd be shocked if they ever built anything as big or as ambitious as an X-15, even.

Back on topic: does anyone even expect the Tempest project to get as far as the Avro Arrow or the TSR-2? This seems destined to join the ranks of the P.1154 on the "wouldn't it have been cool if they'd actually built it?" scale.

Back on topic: does anyone even expect the Tempest project to get as far as the Avro Arrow or the TSR-2? This seems destined to join the ranks of the P.1154 on the "wouldn't it have been cool if they'd actually built it?" scale.

Still a big pretty model at the moment.British manufacturing has always been politically driven

a reply to: Barnalby

I'm already seeing articles that Tempest is going to put the F-35 into a museum.

a reply to: Zaphod58

If only they find a way to pay for it...

Has Japan stepped up to the plate yet, or is it still only England with soft non-committal from Germany and France? Don't get me wrong, it seems like a fantastic (paper) airplane and I hope they figure out a way to pay for it, but I'm not holding my breath.

a reply to: Barnalby

They aren't even at the "pay for it" part. The mock is one of several designs being bandied about by "team Tempest". They haven't even decided on firm requirements, nevermind a design that meets them.

a reply to: Barnalby

Well, Sweden recently agreed an MOU with the UK. There have been some quiet announcements of late around Tempest. Such as:

- The number of people working on the project is c. 2,000
- The UK is linking with Boeing around the "loyal wingman" idea, which will doubtlessly bleed into Tempest
- Rolls-Royce, Reaction Engines and BAE Systems have been contracted to look at hypersonics, which again may bleed into Tempest

The other sixth generation project involving France, Germany and Spain is now called the New Generation Fighter (NGF), and has had a few political problems, but they presented a model at the Paris Airshow 2019 and released some snappy CGI.

I read somewhere that the likely requirements for NGF and Tempest may not be entirely compatible, so a natural fit and merger of the programmes may not be possible. Anyway, apart from the money, I doubt the French would consider watering down their control of NGF by merging with the UK-led Tempest. The UK would not accept French dominance, for example.

Again, I read (but cannot find the article) that the UK model for collaboration in Tempest is a bit more "fluid" than the rigid workshare-obsessed model the French-German programme seems likely to be, especially as a drive for the NGF is for industrial consolidation within the EU, a body the UK is trying to leave.

a reply to: paraphi

Yeah, it seems like the best shot that Tempest has at life will lie outside of Europe. The obvious candidates (in terms of having the money for it) are Japan and South Korea, but both of them are so tied to the US MIC that they may not be willing or able to take the financial/political plunge. That leaves the UK with either partners that are politically amenable but don't have any significant money to spend (Sweden, Australia, Canada) or countries that may have the cash and the willingness to invest it, but are potentially politically incendiary (India, Turkey, Taiwan, any of the Gulf States). With that being the case, and with the project being so amorphous at this time, that 2035 IOC guesstimate seems even more ambitious than one of Elon Musk's Tesla/SpaceX timeline predictions.

Which is better than the Franco-German bird, which might as well be DOA, with even the best-case scenario being that it's the Typhoon 2.0 where they get a really nice 5th gen fighter that enters service AFTER the American and Chinese 6th gens. Maybe it'll outperform the Su-50, at least...

a reply to: RadioRobert

Ah, so it's still in the "circlejerk" stage of development.

I guess they can't cancel your fighter when you don't even know if it's going to be a fighter yet.

Morning!

Even with a limited number of countries, that we already partner with, the total number of aircraft sold would be in excess of 600.

UK will need around 200
Sweden up to 100
Italy around 150
Japan 200
KSA 100

At those numbers we don't need any involvement from the Franco-Germans, and that's before we include other less attractive partners.

I was in a meeting up here the other day, Tempest is strategic for BAE. BAE is a very different beast today and the days of sole reliance on government funding such as in the days of TSR have gone.

Cheers
Robbie

a reply to: Zaphod58
Are you being serious or is that tongue in cheek? If it is truly next generation then that would make sense. If on the other hand its just a warmed over 5th Gen, well.....

On the other hamd, if Reaction Engines is partnering with RR and their HX design really is that good, then it opens up performance envelopes only currently dreamed about. Time will tell.

a reply to: thebozeian

The articles were serious. In fact that was one of the headlines.