Do the Freemasons preserve arcane mystical and occult knowledge in their rituals?

So the response is:

Who cares if some of them are bad?

Some of everything is bad!

Yeah, I didn't see that coming. Not a mile away. Let me guess, love it or leave it?

I mean, sure, I would think Cecil Rhodes was a great guy, if he DIDN'T work people to their death, and use his profits to set up a scholarship fund.

But he did, and the truth is, Freemasonry could have cared less about his 'crimes' He wasn't convicted, he wasn't guilty.

I'm here a few months, and now you tell me I am repetitive? I only noticed Senrak and Sebatwerk have two separate opinions today!

Did I miss the notice that it was trash masons and anyone who goes to the effort of trying to support them? Jeeeeeeez

Intrepid, you are wrong. I can't prove it, what am I going to do, show you Abe Lincoln's membership card?
Here's a link, but I would suggest you don't even bother. It is clear that even with names like Mozart, Beethoven, Will Rogers, Samuel Clemens, Churchill, etc. the Masons just can't win.......

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

Of course, even if you do check it out, you can easily say its all b.s. and there is no way I can prove it ain't, so in the words of Kurt Cobain
Oh well, whatever, never mind.

Originally posted by akilles
I personally have only given examples of Freemasons as:
Cowards (Benedict Arnold)
Rapists (Paul Bernardo)
Liars (I couldn't find any Masons who stuck to ONLY lying, sorry)
Slave Drivers (Cecil J. Rhodes, made MY country what it is, you know famous for racism, worked well over a million Afrikanz to their death for shining rocks in the earth)
Sell Out Politicians (Roosevelt, thanks for the Fed)
Twisted Perverse Occultists (Crowley)
and of course,
Child Abusing Murderer (Thomas Hamilton, a notorious child molester/murderer who was credited with killing sixteen schoolchildren)

Hey can I be a twisted perverse occultists too???

You can find fine christian men who do the same thing. Church leaders such as the BTK killer, The member of the Living Church of god that killed seven people in a church service today.

BTW you still haven't told me the how's and why's that have shaped your view of Crowley.

Originally posted by akilles
But he did, and the truth is, Freemasonry could have cared less about his 'crimes' He wasn't convicted, he wasn't guilty.

You see, there's your problem. Stop talking about masonry as being one entity. It's not, it encompasses millions of people amoung thousands of organizations. Freemasons are so diverse and different that it's impossible to lump them all together. We've all told you before, one mason/ a few masons/ a group of masons does/do not speak for all of Freemasonry. Even Grand Lodges only speak for themselves and those under its jurisdiction.

You have no idea "who" Freemasonry is, so stop trying to tell us how Freemasonry felt about past events.





I'm here a few months, and now you tell me I am repetitive? I only noticed Senrak and Sebatwerk have two separate opinions today!

He's actually right on that one Cug.


Intelligent as he was, A. Crowley was one sick dude.


Desire is one of the main causes of all suffering.

A. Crowley's teachings will only lead an Individual into suffering if he/she practices them.


Do we really need to show examples of the kinds of things he was into?

I don't know what's so hard to understand about the link between degeneration, and the devolution that results from it in Man's journey.


Here's my understanding:

The "Thelema" of Aleister Crowley, is that which is of the will of one's "I's" or egos.

The Thelema of the authentic Gnostic, is that which is of the Will of one's Being or Innermost.



Peace



[edit on 13-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu
He's actually right on that one Cug.

Intelligent as he was, A. Crowley was one sick dude.

Examples please. For the most part people get this idea from the stories printed about him during his lifetime. What they don't seem to take in account is that the stories were printed in papers who's journalistic integrity was close to the current Weekly World News. (RUN! BATBOY'S ON THE LOOSE AGAIN!)

I have no problem with people who dislike Crowley... as long as it's biased on some factual information. For example if you dislike him because of his strong anti-christian viewpoint, Great! more power to you. But if you dislike him because he ate people well....

Desire is one of the main causes of suffering.

Restriction of desire is one of the main causes of suffering.

A. Crowley's teachings will only lead an Individual into suffering if he/she practices them.

Examples? All the long time Thelemic practitioners I know are quite happy and well adjusted.

Do we really need to show examples of the kinds of things he was into?

I believe we do. see above.

I don't know what's so hard to understand about the link between degeneration, and the devolution that results from it in Man's journey.

Again example please.

Here's my understanding:

The "Thelema" of Aleister Crowley, is that which is of the will of one's "I's" or egos.

The Thelema of the authentic Gnostic, is that which is of the Will of our Being or Innermost.

There have been books written about this but in a nutshell Thelema is following the Will of the divine but it's your higher self that is the divine your following.

A good example of following your Will (On a physical plane) are stories of a Wall Street exec or a doctor or a lawyer giving up what people think to be "the good life" and finding they enjoy life as a goat farmer/baker/potter etc.. much more fulfilling.

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Cug
Restriction of desire is one of the main causes of suffering.

First of all; this is in opposition to what every Master, Avatar, Sage and Prophet ever taught.

If this is the average "Thelemites" point of view; then you are not at all worshipping your Being or 'Higher Self', but are instead worshipping The Guardian of the Threshold.


Examples?

SUMMARY OF CROWLEY’S SEX MAGICK SYSTEM

VII° Adoration of the phallus as Baphomet, both within and without
VIII° Interaction with something outside the closed vessels of the vagina and the anus
IX° Interaction inside the vagina with either the blood or the secretions of a woman when excited
X° Impregnation + fertilisation of an egg + the act of creation or succession (e.g. election of the OHO)
XI° Two-folded: i) Isolation in the anus where it is considered unable to interact with anything at all ii) interaction with excrements (one of Crowley’s preferred ingredients) and small amounts of blood (when small wounds occur through the intercourse), mucus and of course the mucous membranes that lead directly into the blood supply, etc., etc.

This type of behaviour will never liberate anyone.

It could only keep one in the painful realm of Samsara.

This is also in accordance with the teachings of Kabbalah, something of which you may have some knowledge of.


So answer me this: How is it, that one could (re)unite with the Heavenly Spheres of their own Soul and Being, by trying to drag the nasty desirous vices of the Klipoth up there as well.

Doesn't that sound absurd?


Reflect for a minute.

Besides, it's not about "restriction" or repression of desires and vices; it's about observing them and not identifying with them.

After this, the disciple comprehends the defect during deep meditation, and then eliminates it with certain Esoteric practices, and by the Will of our own Being and Divine Mother.

And of course, all in accordance with The Law of Karma.




PEACE

Well played, T.

I mean, to have an admirable view of Crowley, you really are selectively remembering quite a bit.

For me, his 'mountain expeditions' tell a clear tale of a dark occultist. Go to sacred place. Bring along suckas. Some suckas do not return. Do not mention ritual or anything like that, but maybe add that there was a storm, or bad luck along on the trip .

The other problem is, Crowley encouraged his eccentric reputation, which once you have examined 'facts' show that the stories only served as cover for the ACTUAL things that he did. Are you saying Crowley never tasted blood?

So how long down that slippery slope to eating of a person? Remember, he encouraged this view of himself, he enjoyed the name the Beast, or should I say 'earned' it.

Oh well, can't say I would have wanted to give him the 11th degree, how bout you Cug.

Originally posted by Tamahu

Originally posted by Cug
Restriction of desire is one of the main causes of suffering.

First of all; this is in opposition to what every Master, Avatar, Sage and Prophet ever taught.

If this is the average "Thelemites" point of view; then you are not at all worshipping your Being or 'Higher Self', but are instead worshipping The Guardian of the Threshold.

well I did twist a quote up to match what you said. And it is in opposition to past teachings.. it's kinda the whole point of it!

Examples?

SUMMARY OF CROWLEY’S SEX MAGICK SYSTEM

VII° Adoration of the phallus as Baphomet, both within and without
VIII° Interaction with something outside the closed vessels of the vagina and the anus
IX° Interaction inside the vagina with either the blood or the secretions of a woman when excited
X° Impregnation + fertilisation of an egg + the act of creation or succession (e.g. election of the OHO)
XI° Two-folded: i) Isolation in the anus where it is considered unable to interact with anything at all ii) interaction with excrements (one of Crowley’s preferred ingredients) and small amounts of blood (when small wounds occur through the intercourse), mucus and of course the mucous membranes that lead directly into the blood supply, etc., etc.

This is what I was talking about. You gave me nothing to support your opinion of Crowley but a quote from Peter Koenig's (Who is not a Thelemite) site. His site can be compared to the O.T.O. version of Freemasonry Watch.

(FYI the O.T.O. is not the be all end all of Thelema, in fact many Thelemites flat out do not like the O.T.O. G. M. Kelly is a good example. There are even Thelemites who don't like Crowley)

Now if you would of said sex other than that for procreation was wrong, or sex other than "normal" was wrong and that's why you dislike Crowley, I'd disagree but I'd respect your opinion.

So answer me this: How is it, that one could (re)unite with the Heavenly Spheres of their own Soul and Being, by trying to drag the nasty desirous vices of the Klipoth up there as well.

Doesn't that sound absurd?

Absurd if you think sex is bad

Originally posted by Tamahu
Besides, it's not about "restriction" or repression of desires and vices; it's about observing them and not identifying with them.

After this, the disciple comprehends the defect during deep meditation, and then eliminates it with certain Esoteric practices, and by the Will of our own Being and Divine Mother.

And of course, all in accordance with The Law of Karma.

Well first of all I'm not sure what the "it's" your referring to in this post. If I got it the wrong way let me know.

From Crowley's view point the ""Sin of Restriction" in part comes from Edwardian Englands (And the Christian fath's among other faiths) almost total repression of anything sexual.

Crowley did not view sex as a defect that needs elimination. Rather it's the nastiness that comes from repressing a basic human function that is the defect.

Originally posted by akilles
For me, his 'mountain expeditions' tell a clear tale of a dark occultist. Go to sacred place. Bring along suckas. Some suckas do not return. Do not mention ritual or anything like that, but maybe add that there was a storm, or bad luck along on the trip

.

What mountain expedition are your referring to? It looks like your taking about his attempt on K2. The Suckas your are referring to are the porters who pretty much go along with any attempt. He did not do any rituals, for if he had it would be in his magical dairies. (The number one task of all magicans is to keep track of every ritual they do. I'm surprised you didn't mention that he ate the 2 porters that died on that trip. (OOPS you did allude to it later.)

The other problem is, Crowley encouraged his eccentric reputation, which once you have examined 'facts' show that the stories only served as cover for the ACTUAL things that he did.

Show me some "Facts".. you might convert me and become my Messiah!

Are you saying Crowley never tasted blood?
So how long down that slippery slope to eating of a person?

I'm pretty sure Crowley had his blood wings.

If you accidental fell and gave yourself a bloody lip you would be looking to eat human flesh????? Man your weirder than Crowley!

Remember, he encouraged this view of himself, he enjoyed the name the Beast, or should I say 'earned' it.

He sure did enjoy it. He liked scaring people like you. I never said he was a particularly nice person. ;-)

Oh well, can't say I would have wanted to give him the 11th degree, how bout you Cug.

Sounds like your a bit of a homophobe.

Originally posted by akilles
I personally have only given examples of Freemasons as:
Cowards (Benedict Arnold)
Rapists (Paul Bernardo)
Liars (I couldn't find any Masons who stuck to ONLY lying, sorry)
Slave Drivers (Cecil J. Rhodes, made MY country what it is, you know famous for racism, worked well over a million Afrikanz to their death for shining rocks in the earth)
Sell Out Politicians (Roosevelt, thanks for the Fed)
Twisted Perverse Occultists (Crowley)
and of course,
Child Abusing Murderer (Thomas Hamilton, a notorious child molester/murderer who was credited with killing sixteen schoolchildren)

It's so easy, isn't it, to post lies without any backup. And much though I think entering into discourse with you is a waste of my Sunday morning, if the lies are left unchallenged they evolve into accepted truth.

Benedict Arnold - coward? Patriot more like. depends on what side you are sitting.
Paul Bernardo - never heard of him
Liars (I couldn't find any Masons who stuck to ONLY lying, sorry) - oh you're funny
Cecil J. Rhodes - was he a freemason? Judge him by the morality of the time, not by later standards.
Roosevelt (thanks for the Fed) - what???
Crowley - I believe Crowley was a freemason but was kicked out
Thomas Hamilton was not a freemason, but many media sources have erroneously reported him as such based on the fact that there is another Thomas Hamilton on the register of the Grand Lodge of Scotland.

You really need to get your facts straight akilles before posting such nonsense.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Crowley - I believe Crowley was a freemason but was kicked out

Most Masons would say he was not a member. The group he had the papers for was an offshoot group (I forget the masionic term for it)

Quote: "Examples please."

Well I would call being a Heroin Addict & enjoying to have people Defecate in your Mouth as being a little Sick - def not too Healthy! On the other hand the Demonization of Natural Sexuality by the Orthodox Religions of Old is pretty Un-Healthy as well!

In my Opinion Crowley was a Genius - a *MAD* Genius who was ahead of his time & co-incidentally
Self-Destructed!

Cug - Tamahu is right there is a distinct difference between Superficial Ego Centered (i.e. Selfish) Will & the Will of your deepest Inner-most Being or "True-Self"! The Law of Free-Will MUST be balance by the Law of Karma (or Cause & Effect) - this is the only Logical & Scientific way to go about it!

Quote: "Restriction of Desire is one of the main causes of Suffering."

Selfish Desire is also a main cause of Suffering ITSELF BTW!

We need to get Masonic_Light in on the Conversation – it’s starting to get interesting now!


[edit on 13-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
Intrepid, you are wrong. I can't prove it, what am I going to do, show you Abe Lincoln's membership card?
Here's a link, but I would suggest you don't even bother. It is clear that even with names like Mozart, Beethoven, Will Rogers, Samuel Clemens, Churchill, etc. the Masons just can't win.......

freemasonry.bcy.ca...

BlackGuard,

Actually if you look closely at that site (which is a good one, by the way) Lincoln is listed under the "NON-Masons" area. Lincoln wasn't a Mason. Neither was Disney, although he was a member of DeMolay for Boys (a Masonic youth organization)

A good source (although with some errors) is the Missouri Lodge of Research's 4 volume set entitled "10,000 Famous Freemasons" It's getting a bit hard to find, but well worth it for research.

Regards

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "Examples please."

Well I would call being a Heroin Addict & enjoying to have people Defecate in your Mouth as being a little Sick - def not too Healthy! On the other hand the Demonization of Natural Sexuality by the Orthodox Religions of Old is pretty Un-Healthy as well!

Well the Heroin was prescribed by his doctor.. Many many "normal" people have become addicted to drugs after being perscribed the same by a doctor. Sure doesn't make them the root of all evil now does it? Anyway he kicked that habit until his later years to ease his pain. (My died a few months ago from cancer and he was on VERY high does of morphine his last few weeks.. I know he wasn't evil)

As for his eating habits well not for me. But this incident happened during a time of experimenting. Crowley tended to try first ask questions later from time to time.

In my Opinion Crowley was a Genius - a *MAD* Genius who was ahead of his time & co-incidentally
Self-Destructed!

How do you feel he self-destructed? He did write 2 of his best book during the time everybody says he was self destructing.

Cug - Tamahu is right there is a distinct difference between Superficial Ego Centered (i.e. Selfish) Will & the Will of your deepest Inner-most Being or "True-Self"! The Law of Free-Will MUST be balance by the Law of Karma (or Cause & Effect) - this is the only Logical & Scientific way to go about it!

Your quite right.. But Thelema is not about Superficial Ego Centered Will!

Quote: "Restriction of Desire is one of the main causes of Suffering."

Selfish Desire is also a main cause of Suffering ITSELF BTW!

It's not about being selfish.

We need to get Masonic_Light in on the Conversation – it’s starting to get interesting now!

Yep, I just wish I was a bit better with putting my ideas to paper so to speak. Hang with me I'll get my point across eventually One of my main reasons for posting this stuff is just to satisfy my curiosity. "Why do you think Crowley was bad, evil, etc.." Is something I ask people all the time when the subject is brought up. The truth is many people don't know why they think that other than that is what they heard. and the rest of the time I get some version of the more wild stories that are out there.. I find that kinda odd as the true stuff alone should be sufficient for most peoples hatered.


It's kinda funny I came to ATS for the UFO/Bigfoot stuff yet I post over here most of the time.

Peace Cug and Seraphim Serpente


This could indeed turn into a nice build.

And I do still have your PM in mind, of which I temporarily forgot about Seraphim(sorry for putting it off).


And Cug, I am in no way shape or form against sex; quite the opposite.

According to my understanding, it is the most potent way in which one can eliminate their egos, with the assistance of their Divine Mother Kundalini.

It is how The Alchemist transmutes the Lunar Protoplasmic bodies of Lead, into Solar Bodies of Gold.

But this type of sex I speak of(yes it is physical), is something that would be much too great a sacrifice for fornicators...


For now.....



Shalom



[edit on 13-3-2005 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by intrepid
50 guys in all of history? That's your position? And can you prove any of these? Most, I think not. Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. #, you missed Walt Disney.

I hope everyone realizes this was a joke.

Yeah, I am see-sawing between whether it is just a bad, or a completely inappropriate, joke for a mod to be making.

You don't see me joking that the Freemasons gave Stephen Knight brain cancer.