No Two-Way Communications Allowed During National Emergencies Except by Established Groups

kinda stupid to tell people youll show up at a location where a signel comes from ... ambush/trap anyone

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Depending on the circumstances, it could be very hard to enforce anyway. They'd need the resources to triangulate the source of the illegal broadcasts and the manpower to do something about it.

I guess controlling the airwaves is part of controlling the situation. They'd have a captive audience to ensure populations are orderly. It'd restrict the inevitable likelihood of crazy idiots and paranoid conspiracists from sending out hysterical false reports too. Never underestimate the number of people who will actively exploit things or overreact on limited information.

I would imagine if you made an important transmission for just a couple of minutes, then stopped transmitting all together, they wont find you. They shouldn't anyway.

From what I have learned, the person has to stay on the radio while they are tracking it. Once you stop they have nothing else to go on. They have to constantly narrow it down.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

I guess controlling the airwaves is part of controlling the situation. They'd have a captive audience to ensure populations are orderly. It'd restrict the inevitable likelihood of crazy idiots and paranoid conspiracists from sending out hysterical false reports too. Never underestimate the number of people who will actively exploit things or overreact on limited information.

I'd think it would be more of a national security issue. Think about Black Ops and foreign intelligence agencies sneaking in and pumping out propaganda directly to the population. That propaganda could be anything, from false reports of Washington DC falling to assassinations of political leaders. I could even see outside actors backing specific militias/gangs/insurgents in order to gain footholds in specific regions of the country and using the airwaves in that region to further those goals.

a reply to: chiefsmom

Keep moving and don't do much transmitting. Being on the move is how illegal pirate radio stations keep transmitting in many cases. However, they eventually get caught if they aren't really tricky about it.

Well, I put up the following notice and comments on the MCBRN website and zetaboard forum. Sort of defeats the viability of the whole concept unfortunately. Not much point of a citizen's emergency two-way network if the feds can just make it illegal on a whim.

NOTICE: Although the MCBRN network as outlined and described here is currently an entirely lawful endeavor in the United States of America, it can be made illegal by the federal government during any emergency situation. Since a July 6th, 2012 executive order by president Obama (ASSIGNMENT OF NATIONAL SECURITY AND EMERGENCY PREPAREDNESS COMMUNICATIONS FUNCTIONS SEC 5.6), the F.C.C. can shut down all forms of two-way communications (licensed or unlicensed) due to national security or during any situation they deem an emergency.

a reply to: chiefsmom

Same way you would triangulate a stationary transmission.

Takes three (3) receivers with directional antennas, in three different geographical areas. Each monitors and determines the direction of the strongest signal. The RDF (radio direction finder) units are all at known locations, so they lay down a plot line on a map from where they are to the signal azimuth. Where the lines cross is the location of the (moving) transmitter.

The next time it transmits, it will be in a different location. But now you have some additional information about the target, you now have how far it traveled and in what direction. From this data you can calculate location, direction and rate of travel.

ETA...there's other ways to do this, but this is the simplest. There is equipment out there where one station can determine location, but this equipment requires several antennas. They've been using this method to locate stolen cars for decades with a system known as "LoJack".

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Well, not exactly. Most pirate radio stations were ship based (at least in the UK) and they stayed in International waters until somebody eventually sabotaged them. They operated with immunity (for a while) because they were outside of the jurisdictional limits of enforcement agencies. Here in the US, many of these stations were located in Mexico, outside the jurisdictional limits of the FCC. They broadcast with 'flamethrower' transmitters which were very high power units with immense range.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yes, this is a good point. I would only add; this is one of the very few justifiable reasons to create a radio silence like what is being discussed here.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

The way I see it, what would the CIA do if Venezuela or Iran's communications systems went down indefinitely? There's no way the US govt would leave them be.

It seems to me that it would take a martial law event, in response to societal collapse, in order to police private communication. It would be a huge effort to deny 2-way communications between residents. It takes a lot of resources that any invading force would likely not be capable of immediately bringing to bear.

By the time the government figured it out, there would already be a 100 different ways to circumvent their efforts. All of which require additional resources on the part of the government to block.

As soon as it becomes obviously necessary for people to have unrestricted communication amongst themselves, teams would spontaneously coalesce to invent workarounds. I'm sure there are others out there like MichiganSwampBuck that will already have efforts underway to bypass government restrictions when the time comes.

So, I don't think 2-way comms would be the first target in such a government power grab scenario. There would be some time to judge the situation and start building workarounds before everything was shut down.

However, in the end, we should always have conversations like this to discuss how many civil rights we're prepared to surrender, and how we might respond if those civil rights are stolen from us.

-dex

I am familiar with this edict.

Basically, when you are issued a Ham Radio License (I have a technician's), you have a right to broadcast on a specific frequency. But the thing is, there is a lot of bleed over in shortwave; your license will allow you a certain amount of frequency latitude "for research purposes." once you start broadcasting with very much power, you set up all kind of standing waves and harmonics and echoes and such. So it takes some experimenting to find out how to best broadcast so that "your" frequency is propagated a really long distance.

If you listen to hams on an average evening, you'll hear a lot of people asking how their signal strength and clarity are.

During an emergency, you aren't allowed to do any "research", in order to clear the frequency for people with information to communicate. In applying for your license, you agree not to talk over other people or otherwise interfere with their broadcast. The law just says that emergencies are one of those times.

When you get a HAM radio, you agree to help the government at all levels with their disaster response. After last years hurricane in Puerto Rico, the largest amateur radio association in the states sent 50 volunteers with their radio equipment to PR, to broadcast from local crises to the US military, which didn't have any HAM capability. Some of them only came home in November, iirc.

Most hams I've met are extremely prepper-oriented, and consider it a public service to be hams, ready to help the clueless govt work with local emergency responders and get it together. One of the big train wrecks of Hurricane Katrina is that Ham radio has never been that popular along the gulf coast. Ship at sea would sail close to land and then give ham radio reports to the government and CNN about what was happening. So when Peurto Rico got hit last year, the government asked volunteers to go in a broadcast the situation. which they did.

I guess the journalists are too sanctimonious to tell the government where the electricity is out, what's on fire, and where people are trapped in the rubble....

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Emergency situation?

If I'm trapped, injured, or in duress of some sort, I will gladly break the ruling and use my radio, to my heart's content.

If they want to fine me, or arrest me for it... They have to come find and save my ass, first.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk


I guess I should have been more specific in my question. I understand about how they find a car with lojack, and the other types of car things they have.
I was just wondering if the old CB's were harder to track locations, being that they are so moveable.
But thank you and MSB for answering.

While I understand the need to have channels clear, during an emergency, I would also imagine that if it was a country wide emergency, people are going to find ways to communicate, regardless of the authorities threating to hunt them down. Again, I don't see them having the resources to handle the crisis AND track everyone down.

a reply to: chiefsmom

CB's aren't far out of the HAM bands. In fact, they're right in the middle (sort of). Amateur radio is permissible in the 12 meter and 10 meter bands. Citizens band is right in the middle at about 26-27MHz. It's right at the lower end of what is considered the HF band.

Technical stuff aside, yes; they're pretty easy to track. Very directional signals. Yes, they can "skip" but only with very good antenna set ups and somebody who know's what they're doing. Most people just apply gobs of power and pollute the spectrum with wide band noise, but that's a whole other discussion.

I've read all the comments since my last post, many good points. I'll be giving stars for all comments to be sure.

My main concern is, let's say for the sake of argument, that if the F.C.C. decides that any communications about a particular situation is a security risk, then you become a person of interest to them if you decide to take the chance and break the silence. It could be about some issue of personal concern, but because they don't want any information to get around, they will take the necessary steps to make you comply with their com blackout.

There are examples of cell phone service being shut down during protests here in the states. There were internet shut downs during the Arab spring event and other protests in different countries. People get censored and shut down over political views on social media which is a private party server, however, would our government act any differently if they thought your views were somehow a risk?

There have been a few times I was able to gain important information from CB operators I know around here, like what was the fire department doing near your place, or did you hear that explosion and what direction did you hear it come from? Or what if I talked to a truck driver about the tie up at the local interstate? But what if that information is considered a security risk by the authorities? Just wanting to know what is going on around you during a blackout could be enough to become a potential enemy of the state.

Naw, we will all do whatever the hail we want, since it is a free country

a reply to: tovenar

You do realize that in the emergency situations like you describe, where the Ham operators are helping the government, that will be the only communications allowed during a mandatory government security type blackout, licensed or not? If you aren't part of their program, then you will be SOL with your personal communications concerns in such an extreme scenario.

Bottom line IMO is that our ability or inability to communicate directly affects our right to free speech. You can't say anything when your mouth is gagged, regardless of what you may have to say or who you may want to say it to.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: chiefsmom

CB's aren't far out of the HAM bands. In fact, they're right in the middle (sort of). Amateur radio is permissible in the 12 meter and 10 meter bands. Citizens band is right in the middle at about 26-27MHz. It's right at the lower end of what is considered the HF band.

Technical stuff aside, yes; they're pretty easy to track. Very directional signals. Yes, they can "skip" but only with very good antenna set ups and somebody who know's what they're doing. Most people just apply gobs of power and pollute the spectrum with wide band noise, but that's a whole other discussion.

I thought I'd add to the idea of skipping CB signals. Unless you might want to communicate with another distant station, like say one of your friends or relatives a number of states away, skip would have to be straight up to the ionosphere then back down again to transmit locally. However, with regards to unlicensed CBs, you are only allow up to a 150 mile radius to communicate in, and vertical skip (or NVIS) covers about 400 miles and wouldn't necessarily prevent triangulation. Also with CBs you are not supposed to communicate beyond the border of the US. Basically I see no need to skip signals when your greatest concerns will likely be your local area within line of sight.

Now, if you wanted to transmit skip on the CB without technically breaking the law, you could merely transmit information during skip conditions without replying to anyone else you expect to be listening to you that is farther than the 150 mile limit or outside the US borders. In order to be certain your target operators hear the message, they could merely make an unrelated statement and give their handle or unit number. If you know who you want to relay a message to, there would be no need to give your location or indicate that you copied their transmission.

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

A "skip" is also known as a Sporadic E propagation or skywave skip. There are also different kinds (Equatorial and Polar). As far as CB radio frequencies are concerned they are an unusual phenomenon and are not predictable. The ionosphere is constantly changing by the minute. There are conditions where skips are more likely occur, but predicting when one will happen and exactly where it will originate and terminate is next to impossible.

You are more likely to be able to predict when one will not happen versus predicting when one will.

a reply to: whitewave

We used to do foxhunts back in the day with cb's. It was fun and was actually pretty easy provided you had patience and some free time. Just keep dialing down the reception until it pegs your meters at the lowest setting, then disconnect your antenna. If you can still hear it - you know you are really close...