WATCH: Two Transgenders Blow Out Girls In State Meet

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Justoneman

First of all, it has been shown in these threads before, and I have shown here that gender identity isn't simply a matter of "what someone thinks they are."

I think there are some questions to be answered and some issues to be resolved. I suggested looking at competition in terms of ranges of physical capabilities and attributes, and was told that, no, the only fair divisions were already in place as biological sex.

I am only saying what I've said. Individual situations (like the point-of-departure in this OP) need to be considered individually.

However, in general like sexual orientation, race, sex, religion, disability status, national origin, etc ... classes of Americans that are regularly discriminated against need protections to insure due process and equality before the law.

I could wish humans weren't this way, but we are. One of the only valid purposes of government is to ensure equal civil rights.

You are mad if you think that XX and XY don't count every time. Every time you are born your body develops based on your DNA and the hormone 'bits' tend to do dramatic changes in all genders of all species on the planet.

Fish will flip gender physically if there are all females in the gene pool several females experience hormone changes to male, look it up there is a lot more there than just that for the fish.

Women can't create hormones to change to a male with their DNA. Men can't change their body to female with their DNA either. It is not natural, end of story. Any hermaphrodite, who are some odd mixes like XXXY and XYYY DNA combined in several patterns things found so far in in this group make up maybe 0.0001% and should be the only other category than Male or Female.
Either you are raised DNA as a boy or a girl.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Now it'll be "fastest runner" in the transgender/left-handed/had an ingrown toenail but got over it/knows a Ginger/is a Mulato/and likes to wear hats

lol.

Well breaking things down in categories isn't what is bad. It is how you use the categories that can make it bad.

a reply to: dragonridr

Getting their own grouping would be a good idea if there were enough of them to make it feasible.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: dragonridr

I'm replying to you to ask whether or not you think a transgender man who has been taking testosterone and undergoing hormone therapy should compete with men or women.

It seems to me that if someone has been on the proper hormones and has gone gender reassignment surgery, that they should compete with people in the same category - trans men with men and trans women with women.

A transgender woman certainly has a disadvantage if forced to compete with men, as she would have much lower testosterone levels. A transgender man certainly would be better at sports than a woman because he has higher testosterone levels.

Not fair to the transgendered males. They will have smaller hearts and lungs and lower red blood cell counts. As such they will not win against cis males. Even taking testosterome doesnt change a women into a man. A transgendered man will always be physically weaker then a man that excersizes like they do. Case in point find a transgendered male that can dead lift what guys can.

When i see a transgendered male lift what Oscar Mosquera can ill admit im wrong.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: dragonridr

Getting their own grouping would be a good idea if there were enough of them to make it feasible.

Well for my daughters sake i think expecting woman to compete against former men isnt fair. Biology has given them advantages regardless of hormone levels.

originally posted by: Justoneman

You are mad if you think that XX and XY don't count every time. Every time you are born your body develops based on your DNA and the hormone 'bits' tend to do dramatic changes in all genders of all species on the planet.

This is generally true but not always true. There are variations in humans, and wide variations in other species.

Again, this seems to be confusing terms. Even though your statement is mistaken, you are still speaking of sex and anatomy.

The discussion is about gender which is not, no matter how much some folks want to conflate the two, the same thing.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: dragonridr

Getting their own grouping would be a good idea if there were enough of them to make it feasible.

Well for my daughters sake i think expecting woman to compete against former men isnt fair. Biology has given them advantages regardless of hormone levels.

This is of course your opinion and many people have it. However, science and medical fact are changing the way people think.

It's not fair to your daughter? Perhaps, but excluding the trans kid isn't fair either. What to do?

Here's a recent decent article regarding the topic from from Jeff Jacobs of the Connecticut Post: No easy answers when it comes to transgender athletes

To deny a transgender athlete the chance to compete is wrong in every way. To deny a teenage transgender athlete the opportunity to compete sends the kind of message that lowers the standards of humanity. Those wrestling with gender and sexual identity at this delicate age are especially prone to drug use and suicide. No sport is worth ruining lives. None.

Yet to have watched Cromwell’s Andraya Yearwood, before any sort of hormonal treatment, win the Class M sprint titles last year left one convinced that the competitive field in the state championships was not even. And to watch Miller, who competed on the boys team during the winter indoor season, dominate the sprints Monday as a girl left one convinced the competitive field remained uneven.

And this ...

“Quite honestly, I just focused on me,” said Carly Swierbut of Newton who won the 400 in a time of 55.48. “I know how to run this race. I just focused on the lane in front of me and didn’t worry about anybody else.” Asked if she had any problems competing against transgender athletes, Swierbut said, “Not at all. If you’re good enough to run, you’re good enough to run. If somebody wants to win, they’re going to work their tail off to win. It doesn’t matter who you are, what you are, everybody should have the chance.” These are entirely gracious words, words that tell you the kids are all right, that the next generation is going to be fine.

Miller, the winner of the 100 and 200 (the trans kid) came in fourth in the 400 behind Miss Swierbut.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: dragonridr

Getting their own grouping would be a good idea if there were enough of them to make it feasible.

Exactly. Then there's no exclusion and they way things are continue. They're always adding new sports and categories so this would just be one more.

Rescinded.

Anyone care to talk about the facts of the particular situation presented in the OP?

In the special case of high-school athletic competition ... many times a trans person is in the earliest stages of transitioning if at all.

Hormone therapy, surgery, etc. aren't practical for many young people, or they've only started it (because the process even before treatment starts can take up to two years.)

In the SPECIFIC case of the Connecticut State Open held on June 4 (you know, as opposed to making blanket declaractions about trans athletes in general) ... I'd like to say that I don't really understand how Miller and Yearwood got to compete as both had competed as boys just last winter.

If I understood the high school athletic rules in CT ... while gender is legally equivalent to gender identity, high school athletes must declare a gender and then continue to compete as that gender for their high school career.

Seems to me that if these young ladies had been held to that, they would have been competing in the boys division rather than the girls.

I'll see if I can find more specific info on that...

If you believe you are a gender other than the one you were born with you have mental problems. If you support people who believe they are a gender other than the one they were born with you are an enabler. If you see the truth and say it you are a homophobic hater.

Obviously the problem here is the truth. We need to get rid of it as soon as possible.

Medical and psychiatric science disagrees in some cases with the opinion about trans folk and "mental problems."

Some trans folk have gender dysphoria and some do not. The APA has stated quite clearly that gender dysphoria alone is not a mental disorder.

Dozens of medical and psychiatric associations have called for ceasing discrimation against individuals with differing gender identities and treating them as any other person.

Seventeen States in the US protect the civil rights of transgender individuals.

This topic is not (or shouldn't be) yet another rehashing of whether trans folk have a right to exist, yet, here we are.

Well, I found verification:

In addition, the CIAC shall expect that, as a general matter, after the issue of gender identity has been addressed by the student and the school district, the determination shall remain consistent for the remainder of the student’s high school sports eligibility.

The CIAC is the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference that governs competitive high school sports in CT.

The CIAC Handbook is found here and the relevant rules are on page 55. (It's a pdf download.)

Given that, I'm not sure why Miller and the other student are allowed to compete in the girls division since they are both noted as competing in the boys last winter.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The APA made the statement but how much is truth and how much is, "We better say this or face riots and protests every day for the rest of our lives..."

A guy who thinks he is a girl trapped in the wrong body has problems. I don't care what you call them or how you classify them. There are only two genders. Anything else is a perception or desire. Preference and choice are not genders.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Gryphon66

The APA made the statement but how much is truth and how much is, "We better say this or face riots and protests every day for the rest of our lives..."

A guy who thinks he is a girl trapped in the wrong body has problems. I don't care what you call them or how you classify them. There are only two genders. Anything else is a perception or desire. Preference and choice are not genders.

The APA made the statement based on scientific studies and the consensus of their professional membership.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

The APA make statements based on what society wants because they're afraid of riots?

Hilarious.

Other professional medical associations that support transgender equality ...

American Medical Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Family Physicians
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American Public Health Association
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care

... to name a few.

Now, can we get back to the topic which is the specific case in CT last Monday?

originally posted by: RowanBean
a reply to: Vroomfondel

The APA make statements based on what society wants because they're afraid of riots?

Hilarious.

How many people, companys, agencies, etc, have agreed to things because they were afraid of the consequences? You make it sound like it has never happened before. Look what happened to a guy with a cake shop when he said he wanted to exercise his religious rights. And how many do you think bowed under to the pressures instead of making that stand? How many businesses in Chicago made donations to the rainbow coalition because they were afraid of the negative impact of the picketing and protests had they kept their checkbook closed? This is not a new concept. Its just new to some...

Supporting equality and agreeing that there are more than two genders are two different things. All people should be treated equally. Even the ones with mental disorders.

As for CT, my opinion stands as stated. Believing you are something you are not is a mental problem. There are two genders. Period. If you are male and you think you are female - you have issues. You may want to be female. You may identify 'with' females more than males. But desire is not a gender. Preference is not a gender. Male and Female - those are your choices. How society treats people who make alternate choices and what agencies acknowledge those choices are still not creating new genders, regardless of their credentials or areas of expertise.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: RowanBean
a reply to: Vroomfondel

The APA make statements based on what society wants because they're afraid of riots?

Hilarious.

How many people, companys, agencies, etc, have agreed to things because they were afraid of the consequences? You make it sound like it has never happened before. Look what happened to a guy with a cake shop when he said he wanted to exercise his religious rights. And how many do you think bowed under to the pressures instead of making that stand? How many businesses in Chicago made donations to the rainbow coalition because they were afraid of the negative impact of the picketing and protests had they kept their checkbook closed? This is not a new concept. Its just new to some...

What does that have to do with APA? APA do not cave in to pressure. They "cave in" to scientific evidence.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Other professional medical associations that support transgender equality ...

American Medical Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
American Academy of Family Physicians
American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
American Public Health Association
National Association of Social Workers
National Commission on Correctional Health Care

... to name a few.

Now, can we get back to the topic which is the specific case in CT last Monday?

These groups support transgender REALITY and equity within their Professional domains not social equality....they do not speak to this social or humanitarian issue in any way shape nor form....you wish them to but they do not..