Miss America ends swimsuit competition

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
Nobody is buying your point of view here.

Your post is an appeal to popularity logical fallacy.

So you don't feel that the progressive point of view is valid?

Or is it simply that you don't feel the progressive point of view is logically consistent?

You should be asking the organizing body of the beauty pageant those questions. They will, I am sure, say the obvious, that women and men cannot be judged equally because there still exists an uneven playing field out there in society.

originally posted by: InTheLight
They will, I am sure, say the obvious, that women and men cannot be judged equally because there still exists an uneven playing field out there in society.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

Progressives believe that women and men must be judged equally, thus girls must be allowed into the Boy Scouts.

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
They will, I am sure, say the obvious, that women and men cannot be judged equally because there still exists an uneven playing field out there in society.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

Progressives believe that women and men must be judged equally.

Are they excluding them? Show me an instance where a man has asked to be included in the beauty pageant and where they excluded him, and if so, what was the reason.

a reply to: InTheLight

You didn't answer the question.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

Again, how does maintaining sexism by segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

originally posted by: redmage
a reply to: InTheLight

You didn't answer the question.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

Again, how does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

Alternatively, if a woman wanted to compete in a man's beauty contest what do you think would happen? The pageants are organized by men or women for men or women, because up to now they are/were based specifically on physical beauty. You are confusing sexism and exclusion with organizations that hold gender-specific competitions for specific reasons. In the case of the women's pageant, the bikini and tight evening gown segments and in the men's perhaps speedo bathing suits - how can that be equally judged?

a reply to: InTheLight

Again, you didn't answer the question.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

How does maintaining sexism by segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

originally posted by: redmage
a reply to: InTheLight

Again, you didn't answer the question.

How does maintaining sexism by excluding someone based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

How does maintaining sexism by segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

I don't agree with your premise so if you are unwilling to discuss the organizational structure and rules of beauty pageants then we are at a standstill.

Also the girl scouts joining the boy scouts is not a competition it should be looked at as a collaboration, but it was the Boy Scouts of America that allowed this - the Girl Scout leaders said they were blindsided. If any boy identifies as a girl he can join the Girl Scouts, no problem. They should now be called only 'scouts'.

originally posted by: InTheLight
I don't agree with your premise so if you are unwilling to discuss the organizational structure and rules of beauty pageants then we are at a standstill.

So you're unwilling to discuss matters if someone doesn't accept your repeated attempts at deflection.
Even going so far as attempting to compare the "the bikini portion" (the organizational structure and rules) when the whole basis of this tread is that such a structure no longer exists.

It's not a complicated question.

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

How does maintaining sexism by segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
I don't agree with your premise so if you are unwilling to discuss the organizational structure and rules of beauty pageants then we are at a standstill.

So you're unwilling to discuss matters if someone doesn't accept your repeated attempts at deflection.
Even going so far as attempting to compare the "the bikini portion" when the whole basis of this tread is that such a portion no longer exists.

It's not a complicated question.

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

How does maintaining sexism by segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

You would have to ask the organizers of both women's and men's beauty pageants why they exclude the other gender, I was only stating a fact that they are separate and I gave you reasons why I thought they were because they were primarily physical beauty-based and there could be no fair judging. Now that the women's beauty pageant will no longer have swimsuit segments, and most likely drop the tight fitting evening gowns too, and if they accept women of all ages and walks of life, then perhaps in the future they may evolve into a talent competition based on factors where all people can be included. As it stands now, these are early days and to expect gender equality in a changing physical beauty-based competition is unreasonable.

Was the Beatles song "I Saw Him Standing There" sexist?
There may be more to the pageant then many people are aware of.

originally posted by: InTheLight
You would have to ask the organizers of both women's and men's beauty pageants why they exclude the other gender

They were not the ones who stated, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

You did. You've also repeated represented yourself here as "progressive".

originally posted by: InTheLight
I was only stating a fact that they are separate and I gave you reasons why I thought they were because they were primarily physical beauty-based and there could be no fair judging.

It's no longer a physical-based beauty competition, so your arguments regarding bikinis and evening gowns are not the least bit relevant.

"We will no longer judge our candidates on their outward physical appearance. That's huge," Carlson said, adding that the competition would now welcome women of "all shapes and sizes."

Since you claim to be "progressive", yet you were the one who stated, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant."... how does segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

How is your statement even remotely "progressive" since you clearly promote the ideology of sexual segregation when physicality isn't a factor at all?

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
You would have to ask the organizers of both women's and men's beauty pageants why they exclude the other gender

They were not the ones who stated, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant.".

You did. You've also repeated represented yourself here as "progressive".

originally posted by: InTheLight
I was only stating a fact that they are separate and I gave you reasons why I thought they were because they were primarily physical beauty-based and there could be no fair judging.

It's no longer a physical-based beauty competition, so your arguments regarding bikinis and evening gowns are not the least bit relevant.

"We will no longer judge our candidates on their outward physical appearance. That's huge," Carlson said, adding that the competition would now welcome women of "all shapes and sizes."

Since you claim to be "progressive", yet you were the one who stated, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant."... how does segregating and excluding people based on their sex promote egalitarian equality?

How is your statement even remotely "progressive" since you clearly promote the ideology of sexual segregation?

I was stating a fact not a stance, you can't seem to tell the difference. What does Carlson state above in your post?

Also, it remains to be seen if the beauty part of it will be a continuing factor or not, let's see if women of all ages and walks of life will be seen and heard.

Funnily enough, most of my girlfriends have had big noses or worn glasses. Wonder if that means something? It is what it is I guess. They all looked gorgeous in bikinis though, at least to me.

originally posted by: InTheLight
I was stating a fact not a stance, you can't seem to tell the difference. What does Carlson state above in your post?

You still fail to answer the simple question, and turn to Trump's playbook. Deflect, deflect, deflect, and attack the person asking a question you don't like.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Also, it remains to be seen if the beauty part of it will be a continuing factor or not, let's see if women of all ages and walks of life will be seen and heard.

Carlson was quite clear, "We will no longer judge our candidates on their outward physical appearance.", so this is simply more blatant deflection verging on outright calling her a liar.

a reply to: TinySickTears

How else can we judge the female contours..? Most revealing is those ladies contesting for the big prize and goodies to walk in front of us naked, but I agree that is a little too much asked. (has anybody asked...its a free country..someone can always ask...no we have, yes we can get).

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
I was stating a fact not a stance, you can't seem to tell the difference. What does Carlson state above in your post?

You still fail to answer the simple question, and turn to Trump's playbook. Deflect, deflect, deflect, and attack the person asking a question you don't like.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Also, it remains to be seen if the beauty part of it will be a continuing factor or not, let's see if women of all ages and walks of life will be seen and heard.

Carlson was quite clear, "We will no longer judge our candidates on their outward physical appearance.", so this is simply more blatant deflection verging on outright calling her a liar.

I cannot answer your question, because I am not the one excluding anyone from doing anything. Ask Carlson why.

I am not deflecting, I am reflecting on the fact and experience in life, that I'll believe it when I see it.

originally posted by: InTheLight
I cannot answer your question, because I am not the one excluding anyone from doing anything.

I didn't say you personally excluded anyone. That is your straw man logical fallacy to further deflect.

What you did was to promote a sexist and regressive ideology of sexual segregation.

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant. What is stopping them?". That is a very sexist and regressive attitude. It clearly promotes the ideology of sexual segregation, which is odd in a case such as this where physicality is not a factor.

I simply asked how does segregating and excluding people based on their sex (your openly stated stance) promote egalitarian or progressive equality?

a reply to: RowanBean

Your Lack of Critical Thinking on this Topic is Obvious here ..........

A Beauty Pageant IS........?

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
I cannot answer your question, because I am not the one excluding anyone from doing anything.

I didn't say you personally excluded anyone. That is your straw man logical fallacy to further deflect.

What you did was to promote a sexist and regressive ideology of sexual segregation.

You were the one who said, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant. What is stopping them?". That is a very sexist and regressive attitude. It clearly promotes the ideology of sexual segregation, which is odd in a case such as this where physicality is not a factor.

I simply asked how does segregating and excluding people based on their sex (your openly stated stance) promote egalitarian or progressive equality?

There is something wrong with your comprehension.

Carlson states the pageant is for women, because the pageant is for women, this is a fact which I just repeated. What are you not understanding here? I am not promoting anything, just stating a fact that this organization and others are gender exclusive due to how they judge the contestants.

If you feel that this or any other organization's rules are sexist and regressive why don't you take it up with them? While you are at it, ask them about their age discrimination rules and if the description will change from 'beauty' pageant and change the 'Miss" American part now and if beauty is not now a factor then why can't men compete now too alongside women.

Don't be naive to think that decades of gender segregation in the beauty competition area will turnaround overnight.

originally posted by: InTheLight
There is something wrong with your comprehension.

No, the only thing wrong here is you constantly diverting, deflecting, backtracking, and selectively omitting what you said.

originally posted by: InTheLight
Carlson states the pageant is for women

Carlson did not follow that up with, "Men are free to start up their own pageant. What is stopping them?". That's all you, all sexist, and entirely regressive as a followup to "Carlson's" statement even though you were not quoting her when you said it (like you're now attempting to attribute).

Instead of acknowledging what you said, and addressing it when questioned, you simply keep deflecting and pretending that your own words don't exist while blaming everything from the pageant to Carlson herself.

It was not Carlson's sentiment that, "the pageant is for women. Men are free to start up their own pageant. What is stopping them?", and your acrobatics attempting to blame this sentiment on her is intellectually dishonest.