Dozens killed in Gaza as US Embassy opens in Jerusalem

a reply to: PaddyInf

Or do you consider gunning down crowds of essentially unarmed people to be proportionate?

If there was any "gunning down crowds of essentially unarmed people" you would see hundreds of dead instead of dozens. Enough with the exaggerations. The only ones that got shot were the ones who wanted to get shot, in order the get paid by Hamas.
Don't trow rocks and don't try to get close to the fence and you will not get shot. Very simple.

a reply to: MaxMech

Nearly 3000 were shot through clouds of black smoke and tear gas that obscured any visual, that's indiscriminate heavy fire. There's no situation in history where the firing of tens of thousands of rounds on unarmed civillians would be consdered anything but heavy, sustained fire and having no visual when doing so is an unforgivable war crime. Look at pictures of the deceased by the press on the ground - they were around 50 - 70m from the security fence when killed. They posed no threat.

I for one fully support Israel's right to exist. I support their claim to the territory, and more importantly, in 1948, so did the UN.

Now, if you play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

Example : attacking a secured and ARMED border despite being duly warned not to.

Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Deal with it.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: MaxMech

Nearly 3000 were shot through clouds of black smoke and tear gas that obscured any visual, that's indiscriminate heavy fire.

You are making stuff up. 2700 were injured, not shot. By inhaling teargas for the most part.

Look at pictures of the deceased by the press on the ground - they were around 50 - 70m from the security fence when killed. They posed no threat.

How do you know? Pictures could be fake to begin with. Bodies could have been moved. Your Impression of the distance could be wrong. They could have been armed. Just dont know, you werent there.

originally posted by: mightmight

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: MaxMech

Nearly 3000 were shot through clouds of black smoke and tear gas that obscured any visual, that's indiscriminate heavy fire.

You are making stuff up. 2700 were injured, not shot. By inhaling teargas for the most part.

Look at pictures of the deceased by the press on the ground - they were around 50 - 70m from the security fence when killed. They posed no threat.

How do you know? Pictures could be fake to begin with. Bodies could have been moved. Your Impression of the distance could be wrong. They could have been armed. Just dont know, you werent there.

Independent journalists from both Israeli and international news organisations reported filmed and aired the footage and photos. They've not been editted, if you check XHIF data GPS co-ords reveal location and distances from the border.

Both Israeli media and BBC show the photos and video - see here fence is the blur in left hand of screen with the town a few miles beyond that. Correspondents on the ground recorded the event. The are photos of bodies that have been moved and piled up doing the rounds but plenty as it happened like this video report:
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.youtube.com... on the ground video
www.channel4.com...

This a BBC one from a few days earlier where tear gas rounds and bullets are being fired right at the press - they land just a couple of feet infront of the camera man, shows repeated fire on them with zero visual - www.bbc.co.uk...


Heres the Israeli Haaretz papers photos and criticism of the IDF for doing nothing to stop what it calls a massacre: www.haaretz.com...

Israeli media, politicians and intel say it was a gruesome, reprehensible and avoidable massacre which is unheard of. I don't understand the over the top defence of the IDF actions.

originally posted by: poncho1982
I for one fully support Israel's right to exist. I support their claim to the territory, and more importantly, in 1948, so did the UN.

Now, if you play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

Example : attacking a secured and ARMED border despite being duly warned not to.

Jerusalem is Israel's capital. Deal with it.

All of Jerusalem was designated an international zone by the UN. Jerusalem s NOT a "Holy City", it's an historical city, whose history belongs to more than just Jews.



Today, there is almost nothing left of Palestine. Looks like it's the Israelis who believe that the Palestinians have no right to exist.

a reply to: BotheLumberJack

Under our own moral code of judgement used by the West and based on that Logic
we should have invaded Israel for humanitarian rights abuses a long time ago!

they are the greatest threat to peace in the middle east

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

They don't Israel does and they selected Jerusalem as their capitol in the 80s Congress chose in 1995 to move embassy to the countries actual capiral.

a reply to: bastion

"Nearly 3000 were shot"

But it's a lie isn't it? Prove your statements.

they were around 50 - 70m from the security fence when killed. They posed no threat.

I looked at the pictures. The only ones that got shot were to close to the fence or trowing rocks.

originally posted by: bastion


Independent journalists from both Israeli and international news organisations reported filmed and aired the footage and photos. They've not been editted, if you check XHIF data GPS co-ords reveal location and distances from the border.

Both Israeli media and BBC show the photos and video - see here fence is the blur in left hand of screen with the town a few miles beyond that. Correspondents on the ground recorded the event. The are photos of bodies that have been moved and piled up doing the rounds but plenty as it happened like this video report:

you should familiarize yourself with the concept of pallywood

I took a look at the stuff you linked. Please point me to the specific portion you take issue with. I dont see anything you described.

This a BBC one from a few days earlier where tear gas rounds and bullets are being fired right at the press - they land just a couple of feet infront of the camera man, shows repeated fire on them with zero visual - www.bbc.co.uk...

So some cameraman walked alongside rioters burning tires, slinging stones and gods knows what else at -presumably- soldiers at the borders and its somehow criminal that he gets caught by dispersed deployment of teargas ? Its basic crowd control, nothing more. Dont mix with rioters at the fence and you wont get hit by teargas or anything else, really simple.

Heres the Israeli Haaretz papers photos and criticism of the IDF for doing nothing to stop what it calls a massacre: www.haaretz.com...

Israeli media, politicians and intel say it was a gruesome, reprehensible and avoidable massacre which is unheard of. I don't understand the over the top defence of the IDF actions.

In dont have a Haaretz subscribtion so i cant read the article. But Haaretz is a a far left newspaper with along history in this regard. They happily quote anyone willing to criticize the government in some way. Doesnt make it true and not an indication of reality.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

All of Jerusalem was designated an international zone by the UN.

Yeah, the Arabs didn't agree with that plan and attacked Israel from all directions.

Jerusalem s NOT a "Holy City", it's an historical city.

Agreed, now explain it to the Muslims.

Here is the real history instead of the propaganda you posted:

a reply to: MaxMech


ROTFLMAO! HAHAHAHAHAHA I thought you agreed that Jerusalem isn't "holy", then you post "The history of the holy land"?

Yeah, that picture isn't propaganda AT ALL!

"In self defense, Israel takes Gaza and the West Bank".......HAHAHAHAHA

Israel lost a lot of global equity today. So did the USA!

a reply to: mightmight

I'm already well aware of attempts to move bodies and distort the truth, used to be my job, I referenced the staged one with about 20 males who'd been moved in that post and explained I rely on live footage and photos taken on scene not after events happen. When I saw that photo of younger athletic males placed next to each other alrms bells rang, I did some sleuthing through pictures and found some original shots of where they were and the transportation of them in a wagon pulled by a donkey with what appear to be Hamas millitants on top of them trying to cover the movement up. In contrast to this women and children shot were slowly carried by stretcher so the press would get plenty of photos in an attempt to distort the picture iin favour of Hamas.

The footage shows firing on civillians through an inpenetrable cloud of smoke that obscures any view. it's illegal. The press wear body armour identifying them but the IDF have a habit of targetting them and another seven were shot the other day.

The Hareetz report details how intel and israeli politicians had warned such a massacre would take place as Hamas are in total collapse due to sanctions from various countries taking their toll. They warned women and children would be used ass human sheilds in a last ditch effort by Hamas to maintain control over Palestinian people after talks with the Palestinian Authority completely collapsed and advised non-lethal means to disperse the crowds. Instead IDF ignored this repeatedly, made no attempt to use any of the non-lethal measures and opened fire on them.

90% of injuries Gazan hospitals recieved were gunshot wounds from this article and Presse France seperately back up the account from two seperate hospitals - total numbers haven't been published quite yet as hospitals haven't been able to cope with the number of patients -

----
protests that erupted as the United States opened its embassy in Jerusalem.
Even before the latest round of bloodshed, Gaza's health system of 13 public hospitals and 14 clinics run by NGOs had buckled under persistent blockade-linked shortages of medicines and surgical supplies. At Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, the main health facility in the strip, these woes were magnified this week.

Anticipating a major influx of casualties ahead of Monday's mass march, Shifa had set up an outdoor triage station under a green and blue tarp in the hospital courtyard, setting up 30 beds and stretchers there.

Throughout the day Monday, Shifa received about 500 injured people, more than 90 percent with gunshot wounds, said hospital director Ayman Sahbani. Of those, 192 needed surgery, including 120 who needed orthopedic surgery, he said.

By mid-afternoon Tuesday, overwhelmed surgeons working in 12 operating theaters had only performed 40 orthopedic operations, with 80 others still waiting their turn.
-------
www.chicagotribune.com...

a reply to: Sookiechacha

I thought you agreed that Jerusalem isn't "holy", then you post "The history of the holy land"?

Can't argue the content of the maps so you argue the headline. Smooth.

Yeah, that picture isn't propaganda AT ALL!

Well, it's backed by historical events, so no. What, in your opinion, is inaccurate in this pic?

"In self defense, Israel takes Gaza and the West Bank".......HAHAHAHAHA

Luckily, your laughter doesn't affect reality.

Up until 1967 Gaza was controlled by Egypt. In May 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser mobilized the Egyptian army along its border with Israel in preparation for war. Israel responded with a preemptive strike and later won the war claiming the Sinai Peninsula (which was returned during the peace agreement with Egypt).
At the beginning of this war Nasser used the confusion of the first hours of the conflict to convince King Hussein (leader of Jordan, which controlled the West Bank at the time) that he was victorious; he claimed as evidence a radar sighting of a squadron of Israeli aircraft returning from bombing raids in Egypt, which he said was an Egyptian aircraft en route to attack Israel.
As a result, Jordan attacked Israel. Which was a big mistake as they ended up loosing the West Bank.
en.wikipedia.org...

Look, it's obvious you don't know anything about the history of the region and get all your information from propaganda. You really don't have to reply to this post, but please stop spreading nonsense.

p.s.
In the real world "global equity" is not measured by the number of victims but with what you have to offer to the world. Israel is a world leader in cyber/military/medical/agricultural technologies, while the Palestinians have nothing. This is why nobody cares about them, not even the Muslim/Arab countries. Don't be naive, every time you see politicians (doesn't matter in which country) talk about the poor Palestinians it's just politics. That's why you don't see hundreds of other injustices reaching the news. Soon everybody will forget about this protest and all these deaths, as they did numerous times before.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: mightmight

The footage shows firing on civillians through an inpenetrable cloud of smoke that obscures any view. it's illegal. The press wear body armour identifying them but the IDF have a habit of targetting them and another seven were shot the other day.

Where does it show this? I dont see it unless you're talking about the dispersion of teargas. I dont see how this would be illegal, teargas is not a deadly weapon and its not used indiscriminately when used as an area denial weapon.
It might be illegal in your country to employ it this way based on the relevant security laws (it would be in mine i guess) but this is of no relevance. Israel is free to do what it likes in the limits of international law and as said, i dont see any issues here.

The Hareetz report details how intel and israeli politicians had warned such a massacre would take place as Hamas are in total collapse due to sanctions from various countries taking their toll. They warned women and children would be used ass human sheilds in a last ditch effort by Hamas to maintain control over Palestinian people after talks with the Palestinian Authority completely collapsed and advised non-lethal means to disperse the crowds. Instead IDF ignored this repeatedly, made no attempt to use any of the non-lethal measures and opened fire on them.

Uhm your own videos show the widespread use of teargas. They also dropped leaflets over Gaza and had microphones out on the field warning the Palestinians not to approach the fence. And used rubber bullets.
Other than that, there is not much else in the non lethal toolbox, is there? Its not like they can deploy troops in riot gear accross the border, going up against thousands. You are down to live fire pretty quickly if the goal is to prevent the breach of the border fence (which is located 20m within Israel territory btw).

Again, there was no indiscriminate fire. Your story about '3000 shot' isnt true either. Was every individual shooting justified? I dont know. There proabably were mistakes made as they are made in every operation of this type.

90% of injuries Gazan hospitals recieved were gunshot wounds from this article and Presse France seperately back up the account from two seperate hospitals - total numbers haven't been published quite yet as hospitals haven't been able to cope with the number of patients -

Ignoring the fact that Gazan hospital figures are notoriously unreliable - just because you were injured by teargas or smoke Inhalation doesnt mean you seek treatment at a hospital in a situation like that. Doesnt mean 3000 injured = 3000 shot.

And lets get real here for a second and think about this. If the IDF would have fired indiscriminatly into the smoke / rioters / crowds whatever we wouldnt have ended up with 'just' 60 dead and 3000 injured. The numbers wouldnt make any sense, there'd be much, much more people dead. Hundreds, probably close to a thousand and the images emerging would be apocalyptic instead of the usual rioating stuff we've seen.

oh btw

Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members
www.timesofisrael.com...

nuff said

a reply to: MaxMech

Can't argue the content of the maps so you argue the headline. Smooth.

The maps you posted, the ones that actually show territory that is, are the basically the same maps that I posted. The only difference with your maps are the headline and the words, In other the words, the propaganda that the words on your maps are pushing are the only difference between the territory shown on the maps I posted and the maps you posted.

Either way, the poster that I was answering, who said that the UN gave Jerusalem to Israel in 1947 was wrong.

Your revisional history presentation doesn't change that. Nor does it change that fact that Israel has illegally seized land and continues to illegally seize and build illegal settlements.

originally posted by: Spacespider
Palestinians need to grow up and join the rest of the world.

...and said protesters tried to break through the border fence.

Kinda hard to do when you are behind a fence with the threat of arms fire if you try to breach it.

originally posted by: mightmight
oh btw

Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members
www.timesofisrael.com...

nuff said

.... And Hamas threw in the sacrificial 8 Month old baby as well. Because, you know, 8 Month Babies have such strong political convictions.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Spacespider
Palestinians need to grow up and join the rest of the world.

...and said protesters tried to break through the border fence.

Kinda hard to do when you are behind a fence with the threat of arms fire if you try to breach it.

There is that "Give peace a chance" option. Name me one Peace offensive from Hamas? Tell me one Peace Lesson they teach in schools there?

Israel isn't an Angel in all of this, but Hamas makes it easy.