Dozens killed in Gaza as US Embassy opens in Jerusalem

I watched a BBC report yesterday. They literally reported that an 8 month old bably died of tear gas exposure. The fences are hundreds of yards out from any structures, they showed how far they had to roll the burning tires to even make it almost halfway there. Ask yourself this, what was an 8month old baby doing being purposely brought up to a front line of a battle for?

a reply to: TinfoilTP

That is the type of mentality that I believe would make a military force on an international border, open fire on this crowd. If you bring a baby, you will bring suicide bombers. And why not guns? And other explosives. No one should think it’s ok to go anywhere near a guarded international border and not get shot at. Especially when there are loudspeakers saying do not come closer. There’s no excuse to ignore the warnings, test fate and sacrifice yourself, or your kid. Go home and live. Teach your kids to pick their battles wisely and patiently from a position of strength. Why are these countrymen teaching their kids that rioting wins wars? It Doesn’t anymore. If rioting is all you have then you are better off living the best you can until you have a better plan. Guarded int. borders WILL SHOOT YOU. You don’t have to be armed.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Absolutely it is a stupid thing to bring a baby to this sort of thing and in no way am i condoning the acts of the Palestinians. However does any of what you say justify the unloading of thousands of rounds into a crowd armed with stones, particularly a crowd with young children in it?

Using human shields in the form of babies for your military attack is a war crime, defending your sovereign border is not.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Absolutely it is a stupid thing to bring a baby to this sort of thing and in no way am i condoning the acts of the Palestinians. However does any of what you say justify the unloading of thousands of rounds into a crowd armed with stones, particularly a crowd with young children in it?

Using human shields in the form of babies for your military attack is a war crime, defending your sovereign border is not.

So you condone killing babies now, congratulations on reaching a new low....

originally posted by: jamespond
To say anything was started by the Arabs is completely ignorant and widely innacurate.

First aggressors were the Arabs who attacked the Jewish population around 1948.

It's also important to point out that, the only reason Israel still exists today is because of the financial backing it's always received from the west.

Name a single enemy that was not finance-backed by the soviets. Hell the soviets even sent their own pilots to fight at one point in the Attrition war.

A very big part of the IDF is home-made.. Main battle tanks and some APCs, standard issue rifle(s), various rpg alikes.. etc.

In comparison, take away the financial/military backing of the soviets and you're left with what exactly?
So that's not even a valid point.

Militarily this gives Israel an unfair advantage over its neighbours.

"Unfair"?
And brainwashing kids to storm a border is a fair tactic aye? There's no unfair in war.
An army of 3 million tops needs an advantage. Not even going to mention their potential enemy numbers.

If Israel didn't have that backing, we wouldn't be having this conversation now because it would have been wiped off the map a long time ago in a 6 minute war.

And if their enemies didn't have their backing, Israel would be 20 times it's size now.
Fairytales.

On topic - this is the same dirty routine by Hamas and alike, make children get to a war zone of some sort, mix them with the crowd and hope to get hurt.

Give me a single good reason to bring your child to what's supposed to be a forced border crossing. Cross the border and then what? Free palestine? What is a good reason to try and storm it at all, regardless of children? Just to try and score a political point. "The Israeli army is butchering people", got the headline, now everybody can go home.

Nobody on the IDF wants children to die. An IDF soldier was recently released from prison for shooting at a disabled terrorist (convicted and unarguably terrorist by definition) in order to execute, so it's not like there is a 'shoot whoever you want' mentality.

If that's not enough, whatever.



Not propaganda at all.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Absolutely it is a stupid thing to bring a baby to this sort of thing and in no way am i condoning the acts of the Palestinians. However does any of what you say justify the unloading of thousands of rounds into a crowd armed with stones, particularly a crowd with young children in it?

Using human shields in the form of babies for your military attack is a war crime, defending your sovereign border is not.

So you condone killing babies now, congratulations on reaching a new low....

No I don't condone Palestinian terrorists killing babies as human shields.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Absolutely it is a stupid thing to bring a baby to this sort of thing and in no way am i condoning the acts of the Palestinians. However does any of what you say justify the unloading of thousands of rounds into a crowd armed with stones, particularly a crowd with young children in it?

Using human shields in the form of babies for your military attack is a war crime, defending your sovereign border is not.

Disproportionate use of force against civilians is also a war crime. Or do you consider gunning down crowds of essentially unarmed people to be proportionate?

This is the 21st century and there are better options. Mowing down rioting crowds should not be the go-to response.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
This is the 21st century and there are better options. Mowing down rioting crowds should not be the go-to response.

Rioting crowds that are approaching a border that is already extremely volatile. Way to over simplify what's going on there.

What's the proper response? Fishing nets?

You try storming a border of any nation in that area along with 1, 10, 100 other people, and you would get shot every single time. -assuming you are spotted ofcourse.
I'm eager to listen to how that isn't true.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: TinfoilTP

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: TinfoilTP

Absolutely it is a stupid thing to bring a baby to this sort of thing and in no way am i condoning the acts of the Palestinians. However does any of what you say justify the unloading of thousands of rounds into a crowd armed with stones, particularly a crowd with young children in it?

Using human shields in the form of babies for your military attack is a war crime, defending your sovereign border is not.

So you condone killing babies now, congratulations on reaching a new low....

No I don't condone Palestinian terrorists killing babies as human shields.

I know you condone the idf killing Palestinian babies....

a reply to: MaxMech

Arab Muslims in Israel have the same exact rights as Jews. They work in all layers of the economy and have their own representation in the parliament (which took part of the government many times in the past). In addition, Israel has a big population of Ethiopians, Christian Arabs, Druze and Bedouins. All have the same legal rights.

No they do not have the same rights. They cannot vote on Israeli politics. How do the have to same rights. You are defending racism.

a reply to: mightmight

Cut it how you like but you are wrong. Its racial segregation and your supporting it. Check yourself. Why do you think most of the entire world continues to condemns Israels action. (apart from the US)

originally posted by: 1337Kph

originally posted by: PaddyInf
This is the 21st century and there are better options. Mowing down rioting crowds should not be the go-to response.

Rioting crowds that are approaching a border that is already extremely volatile. Way to over simplify what's going on there.

What's the proper response? Fishing nets?

You try storming a border of any nation in that area along with 1, 10, 100 other people, and you would get shot every single time. -assuming you are spotted ofcourse.
I'm eager to listen to how that isn't true.

I have been in a position more than once where myself and less than 30 colleagues have been all that separate 2 communities intent on killing each other with rioting crowds in their hundreds.

It can be done. No one is saying it's easy. It's a matter of training and self restraint. Trust me, there are times I wanted to put a few rounds into a rioter, and it certainly would have dispersed the crowd.

I suppose it takes a degree of humanity.

I don't for one minute suggest that the boarder shouldn't be defended, and there may come a time when lethal force is needed. My issue is how quickly this approach was adopted, and the indiscriminate nature of the response.

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: mightmight

Cut it how you like but you are wrong. Its racial segregation and your supporting it. Check yourself. Why do you think most of the entire world continues to condemns Israels action. (apart from the US)

There is no racial segregation. An Israeli Arab can live anywhere in Israel just like an Israeli Jew. Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza without Israeli citizenship cant migrate to Israel. Thats it and its completely justifiable. Just because Israel happens to military occupy the Palestinian territories atm doesnt mean it should have to treat the people living there as citizens.
As for why the world condems Israel - most of the world actually doesnt hate Israel or somehting. It has pretty good relations with most of East Asia, Africa and South and North America. Even Russia. Most people as most rulers actually dont give two **** about the country or its treatment of the Palestinians. But its politics. Easy chips to be cashed in on the international stage with little meaning and consequence.

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: MaxMech

Arab Muslims in Israel have the same exact rights as Jews. They work in all layers of the economy and have their own representation in the parliament (which took part of the government many times in the past). In addition, Israel has a big population of Ethiopians, Christian Arabs, Druze and Bedouins. All have the same legal rights.

No they do not have the same rights. They cannot vote on Israeli politics. How do the have to same rights. You are defending racism.

Well actually some Arabs do have full voting rights if they lived in Israel before the war of 1948, Jerusalem Arabs have lesser voting rights as remember the west bank was annexed by Jordan in 1950 until the 1967 War.
Those Jerusalem Palestinian Arabs were given full voting rights in Jordan and half the Government seats but that was curtailed and any claims renounced in 1989. The Palestinians have there own votes and vote for the likes of Hamas or PLO or The brotherhood Hoodlums. Not quite as cut and dry as you and others portray. Act peacefully an you may get some peace and less dead pawns.

In Israel/Palestine there are three types of Palestinians: Palestinian who remained in Israel after the 1948 war. These have israeli citizenship and can vote in both national and local elections. Palestinians from Jerusalem, these are considered 'permenant residents in israel' they are allowed to vote in municipal elections but not in national elections. Palestinians who are resident in the occupied territories (West Bank in Gaza), who are not allowed to participate in either types of elections although the decisions of the Israeli government can and do affect the lives of Palestinians (they participate in palestinian authority elections, though, which has limited self rule )

en.wikipedia.org...

www.quora.com... _qa&utm_campaign=google_rich_qa

a reply to: PaddyInf

Or do you consider gunning down crowds of essentially unarmed people to be proportionate?

If there was any "gunning down crowds of essentially unarmed people" you would see hundreds of dead instead of dozens. Enough with the exaggerations. The only ones that got shot were the ones who wanted to get shot, in order the get paid by Hamas.
Don't trow rocks and don't try to get close to the fence and you will not get shot. Very simple.

originally posted by: 1337Kph

originally posted by: PaddyInf
This is the 21st century and there are better options. Mowing down rioting crowds should not be the go-to response.

Rioting crowds that are approaching a border that is already extremely volatile. Way to over simplify what's going on there.

What's the proper response? Fishing nets?

You try storming a border of any nation in that area along with 1, 10, 100 other people, and you would get shot every single time. -assuming you are spotted ofcourse.
I'm eager to listen to how that isn't true.

IDF fired thousands of rounds indiscriminately at crowds of civillians and used teargas in such numbers it was a lethal chemical weapon, its basic fact not over oversimplification. Few if any countries would use military force on civillians whatsoever when non-lethal things like batton rounds and water cannons are available alongside advanced area denial systems. There's no excuse for the massacre.

There's no threat posed to Israel, there's not been a single injury of any sort on the Israeli side since the marches began.

originally posted by: bastion
Few if any countries would use military force on civillians whatsoever when non-lethal things like batton rounds and water cannons are available alongside advanced area denial systems.

Let me know when you come up with a single country in the middle east in which you would not get shot if you storm it's borders. I'll wait.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
I have been in a position more than once where myself and less than 30 colleagues have been all that separate 2 communities intent on killing each other with rioting crowds in their hundreds.

It can be done. No one is saying it's easy. It's a matter of training and self restraint. Trust me, there are times I wanted to put a few rounds into a rioter, and it certainly would have dispersed the crowd.

Were you in the same position against people who are brainwashed (and threatened) to think that crossing the border equals freeing their people from oppression? Cannot be contained, and if you were in such a scenario you should know.

originally posted by: PaddyInf

originally posted by: 1337Kph

originally posted by: PaddyInf
This is the 21st century and there are better options. Mowing down rioting crowds should not be the go-to response.

Rioting crowds that are approaching a border that is already extremely volatile. Way to over simplify what's going on there.

What's the proper response? Fishing nets?

You try storming a border of any nation in that area along with 1, 10, 100 other people, and you would get shot every single time. -assuming you are spotted ofcourse.
I'm eager to listen to how that isn't true.

I have been in a position more than once where myself and less than 30 colleagues have been all that separate 2 communities intent on killing each other with rioting crowds in their hundreds.

It can be done. No one is saying it's easy. It's a matter of training and self restraint. Trust me, there are times I wanted to put a few rounds into a rioter, and it certainly would have dispersed the crowd.

I suppose it takes a degree of humanity.

I don't for one minute suggest that the boarder shouldn't be defended, and there may come a time when lethal force is needed. My issue is how quickly this approach was adopted, and the indiscriminate nature of the response.

Agreed. Fully support Israel's right to defend its borders and the killing of the Hamas guys trying to plant a bomb.

There's no excuse for IDF firing tens of thousands of rounds on a civillian crowd with no visual (due to tyre fires). Especially when by their own admission Hammas are forcing them to do so and the rest are brainwashed by their media.

It was a cowardly, indefensible act that bore no resemblance to the threat posed to the border and hopefully the war crime prosecutions go ahead.

see the book.....150 palestinian tales.......

wake ya up

originally posted by: 1337Kph

originally posted by: bastion
Few if any countries would use military force on civillians whatsoever when non-lethal things like batton rounds and water cannons are available alongside advanced area denial systems.

Let me know when you come up with a single country in the middle east in which you would not get shot if you storm it's borders. I'll wait.

originally posted by: PaddyInf
I have been in a position more than once where myself and less than 30 colleagues have been all that separate 2 communities intent on killing each other with rioting crowds in their hundreds.

It can be done. No one is saying it's easy. It's a matter of training and self restraint. Trust me, there are times I wanted to put a few rounds into a rioter, and it certainly would have dispersed the crowd.

Were you in the same position against people who are brainwashed (and threatened) to think that crossing the border equals freeing their people from oppression? Cannot be contained, and if you were in such a scenario you should know.

Arab spring nations, mass movemment and displace of millions with few shots fired, was so uneventful it didn't make the news.

The UK uses unarmed customs rather than military for border control. Training in crowd control and dispersal are mandatory especially after the troubles and IRA bombings of UK. Bloody Sunday was a gnats hair compared to this and was seen as a major unforgivable attrocity both sides of the pond.