Porton Down experts unable to verify 'precise source of novichok'

a reply to: alldaylong


They are still manufactured by Jaguar Land Rover, though?

Land Rover Brazil Factory

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: alldaylong


They are still manufactured by Jaguar Land Rover, though?

Land Rover Brazil Factory

So what's to say that former Soviet Chemists who developed Novichok are not now working elsewhere outside the former Soviet Union, and manufacturing this dreadful stuff ?

a reply to: DerBeobachter

Why should the guy at Porton Down lie to Johnson???

Political pressure. There should be no doubt that Porton Down would be a victim of emense political pressure right now. There is a lot at stake here. The British governments reputation for one.

a reply to: alldaylong


Anything is possible. It is quite possible that Russia lost control of some of this stuff. It is also possible that Putin is responsible.

Just pointing out that your Land Rover point is not a very good one.

a reply to: spy66


if there was "immense political pressure" on Porton Down, it didn't work, did it?

a reply to: eletheia

Thats just the thing. The assumption that there are only few places where this could have been created is understandable, but not necessarily accurate. Nations who have connections to the Five Eyes (which is more like fourteen eyes, by membership) share data and resources, both by publicly known agreement, and by way of the clandestine services attendant to each nation.

Many of the nations involved with the Five Eyes have research teams and facilities, whose purpose is to identify chemical weapons, their components, learn how each operates on the body, run experiments to discover the method by which the chemical acts on targets, discover their potency, and discover how they are manufactured and combined, and of course, how to counteract their effects by creating antidotes of sorts. And that is just the nations which are part of the Five Eyes. They are not the only nations with which we share information on these matters, because the thinking has been, certainly within organisations like NATO and others, that being forewarned is being forearmed. The truth is, that many major players on the world stage, not a handful, but a good deal of the players out there, have research capabilities which would allow them to know not only how to identify the chemical in question, but manufacture it too.

The very fact that Porton Down could even identify this stuff as being "Novichok" in the first place, means that they already had at least a sample batch for comparison, so that is at least one nation outside of Russia we KNOW must have a source for the stuff. It is beyond belief that the nations with which we have mutual protection agreements of one sort or another, anti-terrorism agreements and the like, do not also have access to the information necessary to create batches for themselves, for the exact same purposes as our Porton Down does, and the same purposes that the US government does, and so on, and so forth.

The list of potential sources for the specific batch of Novichok used in the attack on Skripal and his daughter, is LONG, not short. Its not a handful of possibilities, but perhaps as many as a couple of dozen or more. It is not only Russia, not probably Russia, but it could have been sourced at ANY facility. Hell, the stuff could have come from Porton Down itself for all we know, and we, the public, would be none the wiser. I have said it before, and I will say it again, assuming Russia is responsible because the format of the weapon used was originally constructed in Russia, is like saying that all murders which were committed with a Glock pistol, are the responsibility of the Austrian people. Its ludicrous, putting the cart WELL before the horse.

There are too many people who would stand to benefit from increased tensions between Russia and Britain, too many businesses which stand to potentially make an awful lot of money from the louder beating of the drums of war, too many private contracts which would come up in the event of a heating event being applied to the coldest of wars, to assume ANYTHING at this point, especially when the stakes are so incredibly high. Theresa May and her cabinet as a whole, have made a total arse of this situation, have displayed all the tact, diplomacy and wisdom of your average street thug, in dealing with this situation, and I do not trust their motivations in the slightest.

a reply to: TrueBrit


I do not believe that your average "street thug" would react by implementing an extremely thorough and complex Police investigation requiring thousands of man hours and invoking an independent investigation by the OPCW.

As to your Glock analogy, that is a bit ludicrous as you can narrow that down to a main suspect who was known to possess a Glock and who had previous form for using it to murder people in similar circumstances (similar MO) and who had a clear motive so that analogy is a tad too wide.

I do get the fact that you will lose no opportunity to bash May and the Tories in general but issues as serious as this really ought to be put beyond the bounds of petty party politics.

a reply to: MindBodySpiritComplex

MOSCOW, April 4. /TASS/.

Russia has not received a reply from the UK’s Porton Down science park whether the Novichok-class substance has ever been manufactured there . . .

More: tass.com...

The government is putting up the Chief Scientist at Porton Down to give a press interview on Sky News this afternoon on the Skripal affair. If the government were not confident he would implicate the Russian state, they would not be doing this. But nevertheless I would be surprised if the Chief Scientist were to lie outright* . . .

*On the other hand another Porton Down scientist, Dr David Kelly, told the truth to a journalist in a broadly comparable situation and met an extremely suspicious death as a result.

www.craigmurray.org.uk...

Reply ↓ Patrick Mahony April 4, 2018 at 08:35 The guy was sweaty and nervous. Not surprisingly having to lie or be Kellied.

Here is a screenshot of a FCO video showing Laurie Bristow, British Ambassador to Russia, in Moscow telling outright lies to gathered diplomats . . .

I have long held the opinion that Bristow is a deeply repulsive individual with no morals or scruples. When I was sacked as British Ambassador to Tashkent for criticising Uzbekistan’s human rights record and objecting to MI6 use of intelligence from the Uzbek torture chambers, Bristow went to Tashkent after my removal to assure the Uzbeks that the UK had no interest in human rights and wished to continue “intelligence cooperation”. That somebody like Bristow can become one of Britain’s most senior Ambassadors says all you need to know about the United Kingdom today.

www.craigmurray.org.uk...

False intelligence leads to lots of dead and injured military.

Know your enemy.

originally posted by: TinfoilTP
These threads are good at exposing Russian loyalty, it's as if paid Kremlinites can't help themselves because their handlers are watching waiting to snatch any disloyalists off to Siberian gulags.

These threads are good ar exposing anglo-american loyalty, it´s as if paid NATO puppets can´t help themselves because their handlers are watching waiting to snatch any disloyalists off to Gitmo.

Jealous that you are not seen as the good ones anymore, that you never were?
If you don´t want to know the truth, fine.
But don´t attack others that don´t believe this stupid lie because a selfthinking person simply can´t believe that official anglo-american story, as stupid and bad written it is.

But if your loyalty, your stupid patriotism makes you too blind to see that even the most silly and stupid lie like that of a three year old child is a lie, then you are the brainwashed "Kremlinit", a "Kremlinit" from the overseas.

If the liars, that you support, are too stupid to even lie good enough and make therselves the laughing stock of the world because of that, how stupid must their supporters be to not see what 99,99999% of the world population can see?

a reply to: oldcarpy

I do get the fact that you will lose no opportunity to bash May and the Tories in general but issues as serious as this really ought to be put beyond the bounds of petty party politics.

So says the person who posted this on another thread. Hypocritical or what ?

Anyways, the topic of this thread is Corbyn. His taking up the role of Putin's apologist and puppet seems to fit with the original topic, no?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

What Corbyn said was correct. There is no proof that the Nerve Agent came from Russia. All Corbyn was asking for was someone to supply proof that it did.

a reply to: oldcarpy

This has nothing to do with party politics. The issue here is a total lack of acceptable due process, and a government jumping to conclusions, when it should be waiting for the results of investigations BEFORE uttering a single damned syllable on the matter.

By jumping the shark, they are screwing the pooch. Even if Russia had something to do with this (which is FAR from certain at this point), making a song and dance about it before the facts are in, and throwing accusations around like confetti at a wedding, does not do anything positive for our position as it pertains to corrective measures being applied to Russia, nor does it help the governments case about Russia to be playing brinkmanship games with no actual evidence on the table and in the public view.

A situation as grave as this deserves the sort of cool, solemn headed approach that this government have shown themselves utterly incapable of during its outworking thus far, and as a result they have been made to look rather foolish, having stated categorically that they have evidence that this is Russian material, when they have no such evidence whatsoever, which puts holes in their theory of the crime.

And to continue the weapons analogy further...

The reason it is ludicrous to assume a persons guilt, based on the weapon they use to kill, is precisely the same as the reason you cannot accuse Austrians of all murders committed via Glock firearms... The simple fact of the matter is that each weapons signature upon the round it fires and the brass cases it ejects, is unique and identifiable. You match the SPECIFIC Glock, to the specific shooter, and the specific target. You do not just arrest everyone with a Glock pistol and throw accusations at them for thirteen straight hours, and it does not matter whether that person has used their Glock irresponsibly before. You have to have actual evidence to make accusations of the sort the British government has been throwing around, and they failed to secure any before opening their traps, which makes them the dunderheads of the month in any sensible persons books.

a reply to: alldaylong


Are you stalking me? That post was in a thread ABOUT CORBYN.

Hows it going with the anti semitism thing?

a reply to: TrueBrit


"Used their Glock irresponsibly"? What, as in shooting and killing people with it in similar circumstances with a similar motive and MO?

What the Govt has actually said has been very measured and very carefully worded.

Neither you nor I are privy to what evidence the Govt might have at this stage and rightly so for obvious reasons.

And now we have a deleted Tweet of the british foreign office, a tweet from 22.03.2018:

Link to Twitter

But i guess it´s just another coincidence that exactly that tweet, that says that they allegedly have proof in Porton Down that this warfare agent(meanwhile degraded to poison or toxin in the MSM, magically) was produced in Russia.

That is a lie, as we know now.

And that Russia asked for the OPCW investigation, and that the UK denies every cooperation, while the EU demands cooperation from Russia in the OPCW investigation, that is normal too, i guess...

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: alldaylong


Are you stalking me? That post was in a thread ABOUT CORBYN.

Hows it going with the anti semitism thing?

Your post was about Corbyn AND the Nerve Agent attack.

The very subject you accused Tru Brit of playing Party Politics Over.

I will say again, you are hypocritical.

As for anti-semitism maybe the Conservative Party supporting Board Of Deputies Of British Jews are also playing Party Politics.

a reply to: alldaylong


Yes it was. In an entirely different context. Go boil your head. That is, if it is not too far up JC's bottom to do so.

a reply to: DerBeobachter


That is indeed embarrassing - I will give you that.

a reply to: Xcalibur254
You do of course know that the American Department of Defence dismantled the Novichok production plant in Uzbekistan and in doing that probable hoovered up all the chemicals.
Now tell me that Russia is the only country that could supply Novichok.

PS .Just after the attack a certain Boris Johnson said, on record, that a Porton Down scientist had told him that the nerve agent was definitely from Russia. Porton Down could say anything they liked if they were the only establishment trying to prove where it came from. But the rules changed when samples were being looked at at a number of independent labs. That's why Porton altered it's stance in saying it's Novichok but we can't say it's from Russia.
TrueBrit nailed it, this government has used it as a great distraction, look at Russia not at what we are doing.

a reply to: crayzeed

Why would you assume that over Russia "hoovering up" all the chemicals when they abandoned the facility?

That's without even bringing up the fact that there are experts that say the facility in Uzbekistan was only for testing. The actual production facility was south of Moscow.

Regardless, the fact stands, the only country that is known to have put Novichok in production are the Soviets. That automatically makes Russia a prime suspect. And until it can be shown that anyone else has a cache of Novichok, the only suspect.