How are those Gun Laws working out for you, England?

a reply to: ScepticScot

that is not really true, maybe our urban centers are spaced farther apart but 312 american cities have over 100,000 people while 452 cities have 50,000 to 99,999 people

the UK has only about 50 cities with over 100,000, america is far more urban with over 140 million people living in highly urbanized areas.

overall america has twice as many population centers as the UK in general at 19,500 vs 10,500

i'd think being the 3rd most populated nation on earth would make it obvious.... sure we have a large land mass but most of it is actually uninhabited by people.

but really i think our biggest issue besides population density is a different mindset by our law enforcement and not enough delegation of responsibilities and a weak connection to the general public, a disconnected public is a fearful public and a fearful public is more hesitant to call for help from law enforcement officers and will behave more irrationally to settle problems thus committing more crime and requiring more officers which creates paranoia..

a cycle of fear and distrust exists that makes it harder to enforce the law properly because the people close to the edge don't think law enforcement can protect them or that officers are also a threat.

the american people don't trust law enforcement and law enforcement don't trust the people either, everyone is a potential threat as a result.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: StallionDuck

People kill other people.

Be it guns or knives, the tool itself doesn't matter.


But then again, we're not supposed to look at the culture, we're only allowed to look at the tools.

As always... THANK YOU for seeing the meat of my OP. That's exactly my point.

So often I see people in other countries taking jabs at the US for our "lax" gun laws. I'd say it's nice to see the shoe on the other foot but that isn't at all what I'm getting at and that would have me feeling like a royal dick.

It's a simple fact that people will use whatever tools necessary to do what they want in this situation.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: StallionDuck

Don't you think it is a bit different to a guy going into a school and massacring children?

You are talking about random stabbings, most prob gang related.

Completely different to why people want guns banned, or more controlled in America.

Wouldn't make any difference at all. Take that same kid and put a knife in his hand instead of a gun and he could do just as much damage.

originally posted by: StallionDuck

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: StallionDuck

People kill other people.

Be it guns or knives, the tool itself doesn't matter.


But then again, we're not supposed to look at the culture, we're only allowed to look at the tools.

As always... THANK YOU for seeing the meat of my OP. That's exactly my point.

So often I see people in other countries taking jabs at the US for our "lax" gun laws. I'd say it's nice to see the shoe on the other foot but that isn't at all what I'm getting at and that would have me feeling like a royal dick.

It's a simple fact that people will use whatever tools necessary to do what they want in this situation.

Of course violence exists everywhere.

Quick question, if a criminal hell bent on hurting as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time , would they be able to hurt more people with a knife or with a gun?

originally posted by: Kurokage

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kurokage
Lets just see how this is a few months from now when you had a few more mass shootings in America!!

New York City schools have metal detectors, I doubt they will get a mass shooting there.

Well at least the schools are safe form "The mass shooter" which seems to be more of an American problem than anywhere else.

Once more... By the numbers maybe but the UK has had it's share.

Cumbria shootings

That was a pretty bad day for 12 people in a school.

If history has taught us anything it is that humans we never stop inventing new ways to kill and/or maim one another. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that limiting access to a certain weapon doesn't curb violence. If anything, this should be an exciting time forthcoming for serial killer aficionados. We have the perfect ingredients in place to create society's worst monsters and now we are forcing them to get creative again. Should be interesting.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: StallionDuck

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: StallionDuck

People kill other people.

Be it guns or knives, the tool itself doesn't matter.


But then again, we're not supposed to look at the culture, we're only allowed to look at the tools.

As always... THANK YOU for seeing the meat of my OP. That's exactly my point.

So often I see people in other countries taking jabs at the US for our "lax" gun laws. I'd say it's nice to see the shoe on the other foot but that isn't at all what I'm getting at and that would have me feeling like a royal dick.

It's a simple fact that people will use whatever tools necessary to do what they want in this situation.

Of course violence exists everywhere.

Quick question, if a criminal hell bent on hurting as many people as possible in the shortest amount of time , would they be able to hurt more people with a knife or with a gun?

Irrelevant

You could take out even more with a bazooka in a shorter amount of time in the right place.

Before you say "you can't just get a bazooka anywhere". The same is true for a gun in the US but you can happen upon one if you look in the right places. Wasn't one sold in a thrift mart kind of recently? Hell, you can buy them online. I'm sure someone can even look up how to make one. Steam cooker bombs apparently are just as easy.

So, I'll say again... Irrelevant.

a reply to: StallionDuck

It's relevant, you are deflecting and don't want to answer a very simple question and we both know why.

a reply to: StallionDuck

Pretty good, you idiot? You know, given the fact that New York's murder rate is twice that of London, as even the BS article is forced to admit.

a reply to: StallionDuck

In March, there were 22 murders, which is likely to match if not beat out New York's numbers.

Except, it doesn't. The Daily Mail is not a news source, and claiming a GUESS from the DM is a source is laughable.

originally posted by: SoEpic

I don't see myself as a target but too many people carry knives. Unfortunately there have been too many cuts to the police force.

I think the biggest problem in the states is the reduction in the police force. They don't operate on force in numbers as was the case in the past. Now it is elevated to the gun extremely quickly as our cops either are solo or lack backup to the point they would not feel the need to draw their weapon.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Then you have cases like Alton Sterling on which calling for backup was probably the worst thing that could have happened

a reply to: Morg234

No need to call anyone idiot

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: ScepticScot

that is not really true, maybe our urban centers are spaced farther apart but 312 american cities have over 100,000 people while 452 cities have 50,000 to 99,999 people

the UK has only about 50 cities with over 100,000, america is far more urban with over 140 million people living in highly urbanized areas.

overall america has twice as many population centers as the UK in general at 19,500 vs 10,500

i'd think being the 3rd most populated nation on earth would make it obvious.... sure we have a large land mass but most of it is actually uninhabited by people.

but really i think our biggest issue besides population density is a different mindset by our law enforcement and not enough delegation of responsibilities and a weak connection to the general public, a disconnected public is a fearful public and a fearful public is more hesitant to call for help from law enforcement officers and will behave more irrationally to settle problems thus committing more crime and requiring more officers which creates paranoia..

a cycle of fear and distrust exists that makes it harder to enforce the law properly because the people close to the edge don't think law enforcement can protect them or that officers are also a threat.

the american people don't trust law enforcement and law enforcement don't trust the people either, everyone is a potential threat as a result.

America has more urban areas as it has more people but fewer of its population live in urban areas.

About 80% of the UK population live on urban areas and overall population density is about 8x that of the US.

Even by your own figures you say twice as many population centres yet the US has about 5x the population.

I would agree more that relationship between the police and general public is a factor however I am not sure that the difference is as large as you might think. While the UK has a tradition of policing by consent, the general view of the police varies considerably and there is a culture of not involving them whenever possible in a lot of the UK as well.

originally posted by: StallionDuck

originally posted by: Jay-morris
a reply to: StallionDuck

Don't you think it is a bit different to a guy going into a school and massacring children?

You are talking about random stabbings, most prob gang related.

Completely different to why people want guns banned, or more controlled in America.

Wouldn't make any difference at all. Take that same kid and put a knife in his hand instead of a gun and he could do just as much damage.

You are joking right? The chances of someone doing the same damage with a knife is highly unlikely!

Also, let me ask you this. Why have we not had someone go into a school with a knife and kill loads of people?

Dunblane school massacre happens in 1996. That was with a gun and 16 children died. These sorts of things seem to happen all the time in America.

a reply to: SoEpic

It seems we differ massively.

It'd be a pretty miserable and boring world if we all agreed on everything.

I see the country getting worse as far as knife and gun crime and I would like to be in a position to protect my family to the best of my ability and you are happy as things are...

Are you trying to infer that I wouldn't do everything possible to protect or defend my family?
You know absolutely nothing about me or my background etc and if you did you'd know how ridiculous such an assumption is!
The desire to use a gun in an attempt to prove your manhood rates pretty #ing low in my book.

I'm not "happy as things are" and have never suggested anything of the sort....I just don't think releasing thousand of armed weapons into the general population would be in any way beneficial to UK society.

I feel sorry for you and your family.....

Why?
Why do you think that I need your sympathy, understanding or anything else?

I could say I pity you and your family for your apparent need to own a gun to display some sort of masculine bravado but that would imply that I care....but I don't care really.

but I do understand people being scared of guns if they haven't had relevant training.

You really are talking out of your arse now - I'm not scared of guns at all and how do you know if I've had any sort of training or not?
So many assumptions, a far too common trait nowadays.

Oh, and how about showing me where I said knife crime has reduced?

A well armed society is a polite society.

Seriously??

a reply to: Freeborn

In my experience people are tooled up at home with various weapons just not many with guns.
My mum tells me I have an arsenal and I tell her when zombies come she will be fine.

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: Freeborn

In my experience people are tooled up at home with various weapons just not many with guns.
My mum tells me I have an arsenal and I tell her when zombies come she will be fine.

In the event of a zombie apocalypse I will absolutely accept US gun laws are better. Until then...

The most senior Metropolitian Police Officer - Cressida Dick (stop laughing at the back) has implied that the recent uplift in violence and murders is not random and is partly to blame on gang-members (or more likely groups of mates) stirring up trouble via social media, which quickly escalates into fights, attacks and retaliations.

If you look back to news articles in Feb the Met were already talking to Police Scotland about tactics employed in Glasgow to reduce knife crime. I know some American Police Departments have also been talking to Police Scotland about the tactics used there - and it seems Police Scotland learned alot from tactics used by US Departments in the 1990's...

www.theguardian.com...

Violent street crime has always had links to poverty and broken homes, I doubt this will ever change. Trying to blame it on race is daft. I'd say cutbacks across the public sector that deals with the poor (not just policing) is probably the biggest cause. Youth centers, libraries, schools etc. have all had to find ways to be more creative with less funding and sometimes that means services close. The kind of younsters that drift around with their mates and are easily led are the type that beenfit the most from some of these services which can help set them on a better path.

It's easy for us to talk down about yongsters in gangs but if I didn't have a good father and the Air Training Corps during my teenage years I have easily got into handling stolen goods, minor drug dealing etc. many lads from my school did.

a reply to: BigLes

Yeah, race is a component, but levels of poverty in the areas they come from is a bigger factor. At least, it is in the UK.

I know an area that is pretty much all white and it's also dirt poor with high unemployment and low wage jobs. The crime rate is high and mostly led by teenage lads. A small group are currently awaiting Court on charges of armed robbery. Even though these lads have stopped their robberies, others in the area have continued with them. Unmarked mopeds have been their greatest asset as we've seen throughout all the major cities since ~2012. They're almost untouchable on their peds as police can't employ the same tactics as they would with cars.

It's tougher still because these areas have rigid peer pressure too. Once someone enters the scene they can't get out of it unless they're hard enough to fight on their own. Even then, it's not uncommon for their mum's house to get robbed over and over to prove the point that they've betrayed the group. The ones who don't grow out of it tend to drift into the youth offender system and that's the end of them. It's a shame when that happens, but often it's the last thing after years of interventions have failed.