How are those Gun Laws working out for you, England?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: NarcolepticBuddha
I bet you do some nasty stuff to your statistics in that old killing basement of yours.

Stop fishing for stars with this tired old joke.

Never

originally posted by: StallionDuck
I suppose they're going to blame knives. Knives kill people! Maybe they'll be banned next?

funny you say that because they already banned most knives in the UK and even carrying a knife without a good reason is illegal.

we americans really should stop making ignorant points just because it sounds catchy, it just proves we aren't trying to understand how different the mindset of people is outside the US.

brits and other western nations have different concepts of law theory than america, in america laws are much more rigid and focus on the bigger picture and possible consequences, while in other western nations it's more about making quick and effective changes in law to resolve a problem to protect the people.

we think in completely different ways about laws, one seeks long term solutions that are fair and just while the other is about adapting and changing constantly to the situation and the will of the people.

a reply to: SoEpic

You are so out of touch!

Not at all - just have a different perspective and viewpoint.

You can't live in London.

Never have and never will, its a # hole.
I have however visited the place on many occasions and have quite a few friends who live there.

I have also visited many other cities across Europe and the chances of being mugged at knifepoint are just as high in the vast majority of them as they are in London or any other major city.

I used to live in London 11 years ago. My wife was mugged at knifepoint. If I had been there with a legal gun it wouldn't have happened. People think more before taking actions if they think the person they want to attack may be carrying a gun. Other civilians that are armed may step in and help.

But you weren't there so whether you had a gun or not is completely irrelevant.
The only thing is, if there were a lot more guns in general circulation and you had one then the chances are that the mugger would have one, who knows how it would have ended up then?
If the mugger was holding a gun to your girlfriends head then the outcome would most likely have resulted in at least one death, probably more.

When I was a child in the 80s I never heard of knife crime......

And you say I'm out of touch!

.... but now it's commonplace - it's far worse than it's ever been!

It's definitely reported more.

.... How can you say its been reduced?

I don't think I did say that knife crime has reduced, please show me where I said that.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: StallionDuck

BWAHAHAHA..

That is hilarious when London only has a fraction of the murders of a major us city..

London had more murders than it's population-size equivalent, New York, for both February and March this year.

"Bwah ha ha" indeed.

originally posted by: EvillerBob
London had more murders than it's population-size equivalent, New York, for both February and March this year.

"Bwah ha ha" indeed.

It's a bit statistically irrelevant though, it's like when a baseball announcer says so and so is hitting .500 against lefties over the past three games.

I wouldn't ordinarily argue the point because, on the whole, there is indeed a significant difference. I just enjoyed the irony of them prefacing it with "BWAHAHAHA that is hilarious..." on the same day that we have another thread confirming this specific point

a reply to: StallionDuck

People kill other people.

Be it guns or knives, the tool itself doesn't matter.


But then again, we're not supposed to look at the culture, we're only allowed to look at the tools.

originally posted by: namehere
...they already banned most knives in the UK and even carrying a knife without a good reason is illegal...

Missed this the first time around, but one of those constant (and incorrect) gems we keep seeing.

No knives that I can recall are banned from possession. A very small number (balisongs, for example) are prohibited from being manufactured/sold; knives cannot be advertised for "combat" (so the zombie-killer knives need to change their names); You can carry without needing a reason everywhere apart from court buildings (and possibly a few other places) provided the knife is a folder, non-locking, blade no longer than 3".

Still ridiculous and overbearing, but not (quite) as bad as you present.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: network dude

why?

Because there would be more guns in circulation - I really thought that would be self-explanatory.

I was going for the angle that less guns doesn't equal less killing, as this article clearly shows. Human nature seems to not be hampered by the lack of tools, just use a different one.

A person who would kill another already has some moral deficiencies that exist well beyond our laws and rules of society. How can one marvel at the miracle of birth, and then end the life of a grown child is beyond me. I just think it's important for people who get all riled up about guns to realize that guns aren't why people kill others, they are just a convenient tool to use. And when one isn't readily available, a blade will do just fine.

a reply to: EvillerBob

huh? i was stating a simple fact, i wasn't trying to make any point about the UK being bad or wrong or anything, just saying the two nations think differently, america is generally just more restrained and hesitant about changes to the law.

now they have a defenseless population and a government that puts them in prison for "hate speech"

see a pattern yet?

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: network dude

why?

Because there would be more guns in circulation - I really thought that would be self-explanatory.

I was going for the angle that less guns doesn't equal less killing, as this article clearly shows. Human nature seems to not be hampered by the lack of tools, just use a different one.

A person who would kill another already has some moral deficiencies that exist well beyond our laws and rules of society. How can one marvel at the miracle of birth, and then end the life of a grown child is beyond me. I just think it's important for people who get all riled up about guns to realize that guns aren't why people kill others, they are just a convenient tool to use. And when one isn't readily available, a blade will do just fine.

For proper premeditated murder you are probably right that the tool doesn't matter. However many murders are escalations of fights, domestic arguments or other crimes. The presence of guns in such situations massively increases the chance of fatalities.

The homicide rate for London has consistently been half that of New York. A few anomalous months doesn't change that fact.

a reply to: ScepticScot

i think it's more about level of urbanization and population density than any laws, New York has half the landmass as London yet it has close to the same number of people, New York is just more urbanized and crowded than London.

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: ScepticScot

i think it's more about level of urbanization and population density than any laws, New York has half the landmass as London yet it has close to the same number of people, New York is just more urbanized and crowded than London.

The UK as a whole is far more densely populated than the US, yet has circa a quarter of the homicide rate.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: SoEpic

Gun laws here in England suck!

Gun laws here are just fine.

Only the criminals have guns here.

The vast majority of criminals here in the UK don't use guns.

More guns here would only result in more deaths.

I shoot shotguns at a club and wish I could own a hand gun for club shooting.

Anyone can own and use shotguns here in the UK providing safety regulations and background check requirements are met.
Hand gun restrictions do seem quite severe.....but then again we have amazingly low hand gun related deaths so maybe they are just fine?

Violence here is getting worse.....

No it isn't - things were far, far more violent back in the 80's and 90's.
The reporting, measuring and tolerance of violent crimes has definitely changed - a reflection of the overall changes within our society.

.... and I would love a gun for self defence.

Why?
Have you ever been in a situation where the possession of a gun would have made a significant difference?

I don't see myself as a target but too many people carry knives.

People have always carried knives and slashings were fairly common years ago.
There is a general perception that knife crime is something new; not at all but I'd tend to agree that knife related deaths do seem to be increasing, perhaps someone could supply some stats to either confirm or deny that impression.

Unfortunately there have been too many cuts to the police force.

On that we can most definitely agree - the party of law and order have been in my opinion criminally negligent in cutting funding and resources to our police forces.
To what end? A discussion for another thread methinks.

Comparing UK and US gun laws is apples and pears.

Gun ownership is entrenched in the collective US psyche and its a matter for the US alone.
From the outside looking in it does seem pretty obvious that something just isn't right but whether gun controls are the answer or whether the relatively large number of gun related deaths etc are just a manifestation of a deeper malaise within US society only Americans can ask themselves and hopefully start addressing.

We have enough problems of our own here in the UK, we don't need to add to them by relaxing our gun control laws.

"Why?
Have you ever been in a situation where the possession of a gun would have made a significant difference?"

Do you possess a fire extinguisher in your home? Ever have to use it? No? That doesn't negate the prudence of having one does it?

Two levels to the U.S. issue. First is with over three hundred million rifles and guns owned by 100 million 'legal' owners, they're not going away. Obviously. So the firearm is, at minimum, held in the same view as the fire extinguisher or the first aid kit. Stored and forgotten for most....unless needed. That's the most passive level, of course. That's the individual level.

Then there's the 'collective'. The Constitution aspect. Simply put and merely my view of it, this world and it's citizens are already 'socialized'. Social creatures who operate on that level. Individual rights extant, but not assured. ( I back up that statement based on knowing no one votes on Constitutions, directly. Including the U.S., therefore our rights are largely out of the individual's hands.)

One time, and one time only, have rights been articulated as innate and not 'endowed' by a government. The U.S. Constitution. Even then, the rights have been eroded almost on a non-stop basis. It is the view in the U.S. that the last restraint on that erosion is the Second Amendment. If that is further eroded or even removed, the rest is in no better 'locked in' than any other nation.

That is unacceptable. Hence the push-back. I'm not after agreement on this view, just an understanding. JMO, though.

a reply to: StallionDuck


They are just fine thanks. Lets just see how this is a few months from now when you've had a few more mass shootings in America!!

originally posted by: Kurokage
Lets just see how this is a few months from now when you had a few more mass shootings in America!!

New York City schools have metal detectors, I doubt they will get a mass shooting there.

As I said in another thread you all better hope we never get armed again we would roll over the world and regain the empire for eternity If we all were armed.

a reply to: testingtesting


You of all people shouldn't be speaking of arms. Do I need to call Governor Ventura over?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I have an excuse I just found out I have been walking about with my arm out of its socket for 10 months the muscle was the only thing holding it on.
I thought it ached a bit.
Oh and mark my words one day we will make America pay tax on its tea Mahahahahaha Mahahahaha (Twirls tash) Mahahahaha...(We are the baddies after all )
Please let us be armed again to regain the empire!.
Tally Ho!!.