Jesus allegedly wrote nothing during his life, both up to & during his ministry. Or did he..?

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
We also have the legend accompanying the modern Bible & its origins - that God somehow wrote several of the Old Testament Books directly, with his own hand, so to speak, in a single string of consonant Hebrew letters, without the vowels or punctuation - with the modern compromise acceptance of faith-based belief being that it was compiled & amended from earlier source documents by ordinary humans, but that it was done so supernaturally, with God directing the consciousness not only of the authors of the source documents, but indeed the hand & pen of additional writers, all the way through to the inspired instruction of the editors responsible for protecting its final form - leading to the epithet: "The inspired Word of God".

And that precisely why Gnosticism was prevalent in the early church history. Anyone who can write are viewed as holy for their skill in keeping the secret knowledge of god, even though they are full of craps.

Today, We have many of this so-called "Inspired Word of God" from YouTube users all over the world. But unlike ancient illiterate people, we are not too quick to compile this bull# into "Modern Testament" or "Youtube Testament". Most people today are intelligent enough to argue the merit of "Word of God" as oppose to common peasant in bronze age.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
*NB - the Islamic written works have survived not by any merit in themselves, but because the sword against the throat of every Islamic believer is poised to strike at any moment if they were to dare to disobey its plainly evil commands & 'ordinary' accepted practices in relation to the world around them. The only 'sign from Heaven' which demonstrated Mohammed's divine mission, as he stated in direct response to being asked for a sign f his spiritual authenticity, was 'the strength of my arm', as he put it. St Thomas Aquinas observed some four centuries later that this is the exact same sign which identifies the robber, the murderer, and the despot. All three denominators could be used to accurately describe Mohammed & his followers, and it has been that way since the inception of that false 'faith'.

YHWH isn't the original god of Canaanites people either. The original god was EL. Israel name was derived from EL. Not YHWH. YHWH's origin is unknown. The earliest record about YHWH was from Eyptian Inscription, "land of sashu of YWH."Even the meaning of YHWH is arguable.

YHWH was a "divine warrior", Mohammad came to recognize. YHWH become god only after BAAL divided nations and give Israel nation to him. Mohammed's Islam teaches Old Testament verse without a single contradiction as oppose to the Hebrew text. Unlike Christianity, Mohammed did not teach "Inspired Words of god" for ordinary authors to write at will. Mohammed clearly distinguish between Gabriel messages or god's word ( Quran ) from his own word ( hadith ). Therefore, gnostic writers do not deliberately and falsely try to insert Greek's philosophy and logia into religious belief called Trinity and Logos and claim it as "Words of gods".

Even Judaism take necessary precaution to prevent corruption to the Tanakh.

But then again the trinitarian god isn't YHWH either. It's Jesus Christ. So, who care...

a reply to: EasternShadow

YHWH isn't the original god of Canaanites people either. The original god was EL. Israel name was derived from EL. Not YHWH. YHWH's origin is unknown. The earliest record about YHWH was from Eyptian Inscription, "land of sashu of YWH."Even the meaning of YHWH is arguable.

It's the same God. EL means "God". YHWH means "I am". Both are one and the same just like all of the other names used for God in the Bible.

Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

YHWH isn't the original god of Canaanites people either. The original god was EL. Israel name was derived from EL. Not YHWH. YHWH's origin is unknown. The earliest record about YHWH was from Eyptian Inscription, "land of sashu of YWH."Even the meaning of YHWH is arguable.

It's the same God. EL means "God". YHWH means "I am". Both are one and the same just like all of the other names used for God in the Bible.

Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

EL was the pantheon god of Canaanites people. EL, "the kind, the compassionate," "the creator of creatures," was the chief of the Canaanite gods, and he, not Yahweh.

He lived in a tent on a mountain from whose base originated all the fresh waters of the world, with the goddess Asherah as his consort.[31][33] This pair made up the top tier of the Canaanite pantheon;[31] the second tier was made up of their children, the "seventy sons of Athirat" (a variant of the name Asherah).[34] Prominent in this group was Baal, who had his home on Mount Zaphon; over time Baal became the dominant Canaanite deity, so that El became the executive power and Baal the military power in the cosmos.[35] Baal's sphere was the thunderstorm with its life-giving rains, so that he was also a fertility god, although not quite the fertility god.[36] Below the seventy second-tier gods was a third tier made up of comparatively minor craftsman and trader deities, with a fourth and final tier of divine messengers and the like.[34] El and his sons made up the Assembly of the Gods, each member of which had a human nation under his care, and a textual variant of Deuteronomy 32:8–9 describes El dividing the nations of the world among his sons, with Yahweh receiving Israel:[32]


When the Most High (’elyôn) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated humanity,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of divine beings.
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.[Notes 3]

The Israelites initially worshipped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah and Baal.[37] In the period of the Judges and the first half of the monarchy, El and Yahweh became conflated in a process of religious syncretism.[38] As a result, ’el (Hebrew: אל‬) became a generic term meaning "god", as opposed to the name of a worshipped deity, and epithets such as El Shaddai came to be applied to Yahweh alone, diminishing the worship of El and strengthening the position of Yahweh.[39] Features of Baal, El and Asherah were absorbed into the Yahweh religion, Asherah possibly becoming embodied in the feminine aspects of the Shekinah or divine presence, and Baal's nature as a storm and weather god becoming assimilated into Yahweh's own identification with the storm.[40] In the next stage the Yahweh religion separated itself from its Canaanite heritage, first by rejecting Baal-worship in the 9th century, then through the 8th to 6th centuries with prophetic condemnation of Baal, the asherim, sun-worship, worship on the "high places", practices pertaining to the dead, and other matters.[41]

en.m.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: EasternShadow

That's precisely why the Bible tells us that God said...

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

The Israelites obviously didn't understand this, which is why it was pointed out again in Exodus 6:3.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Well, I don't believe that we are being threatened with Hell. Only evangelists threaten us, so people will be scared, join the fellowship, and pay them 10% of their salary so they can afford a new Rolex every six months. As a long-term Christian (15 years now), I have grappled with all of the contradictions, and the fallacies such as the evangelist with his Rolex fixation, and I can assure you that although I'm still not certain of all the answers, I am confident that God has things under control, and that there is a deeper purpose behind everything that has happened, everything that is happening, and everything that will happen.

And the God who met me in my time of misery & need, is a God of love, power & devotion, not an angry Victorian-era father scolding us for being evil little children, threatening to throw us on the garbage heap unless we love him more. So my only suggestion would be to humble yourself, and call on Him to reveal Himself to you, in your heart & mind. If you speak arrogantly about what you do not understand, does that make you wise, or does that make you senseless? Unless you reach out in faith, you will never know if what I say is true (that God loves us), as compared to what is not true (that God hates us).

Be strong & of good courage, and may the Lord meet you on the road.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: EasternShadow

That's precisely why the Bible tells us that God said...

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

The Israelites obviously didn't understand this, which is why it was pointed out again in Exodus 6:3.

Yes. There is only one God.

What baffle me is the origin of YHWH and dividing nations among the gods as states by Deuteronomy 32:8-9

YHWH was indeed the rightful god of Israelites. But is HE the rightful god for other nations? All this biblical is intended for Israelites only. What about the rest of the world? What are their rightful gods?

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: whereislogic

So you're basing your argument on the idea that God has never changed and you tie in Eccl 1:9 in attempts to prove that?

No and no. Eccl.1:9 was a reference to your way of thinking and arguing about the Hebrew Scriptures in contrast to the Christian Greek Scriptures, and how it compares to the way of arguing of Marcion almost 2000 years ago, re-hashing old arguments and false claims that are inconsistent twisted interpretations of the Scriptures as shown by the Scriptures these claims and arguments pretend to describe honestly and correctly or reasonably (which they don't; it's also slandering the one referred to as "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" at Ephesians 1:3 in the Christian Greek Scriptures; which doesn't surprise me, the bible has plenty to say about those who behave in that manner and who their spiritual father is, who and what they are slaves to, for now). Your first summary of what I supposedly 'based my argument' on is also both slightly incorrect (slightly twisted, it's not an idea, it's what the bible really teaches that God doesn't change his personality or standards, of which a couple of examples were given by comparing the Hebrew Scriptures with the Christian Greek Scriptures) and way oversimplifies everything I brought up leaving out or conveniently ignoring inconvenient details (such as those examples I just mentioned). Anyone can make up their own claims and arguments about what the bible is supposedly describing regarding God and then leave out anything that doesn't match their arguments or claims (twisting the Scriptures). The bible doesn't teach what you, Marcion, G.B. Shaw* and many others claim it does. *: see further below.

2 Peter 3:16

speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant* [Or “untaught.”] and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Back to you:

In the scriptures, God goes by multiple names depending on the translation and particular book. Yahweh, Jehovah, Elohim, and Addonai.

False/incorrect.

This is because the "Hebrew Scriptures", as you call them, are actually a conglomerate of Egyptian and Mesopotamian source material.

False/incorrect. Before going any further, let's see if you can make a comment without so many or such blatant falsehoods in them. I could elaborate more on why I can tell that these are falsehoods, but there doesn't seem to be much point when they are this blatantly false and easily discovered if a person cares about speaking the truth about God and the bible's teachings or message. Potentially demonstrating one has no intention to do so. The twisting of my comment and points also didn't help in that regards, I can only hope it wasn't on purpose and that you really misunderstood my commentary, but that doesn't appear to be the case at first glance.

Exodus 23:1

“You must not spread* [Lit., “take up.”] a report that is not true. Do not cooperate with a wicked one by becoming a malicious witness.

You're just taking up Marcion's report that is not true, because it's tickling your ears (and you probably aren't even aware it was popularized by Marcion, being untaught regarding that issue, you're possibly also not aware that you're sounding like G.B. Shaw as well, who used the slanderous part of that way of arguing).

2 Timothy 4:3,4

For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

Thanks for the demonstration of the reliability of the bible anyway. It's your choice to follow and propagate Marcion's teachings and those of his fans or those who liked his arguments and claims but didn't even know about him in later centuries, but I'm not falling for it. All I see is more reasons to trust the bible, both the Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures, there's nothing new under the sun and the arguments and slander against Jehovah God (+attempts at 'suppressing the truth', Ro 1:18) are just as dishonest and unreasonably biased as they have been for thousands of years. I'm not blind to the source of these arguments and I don't turn a blind eye to the behaviour of those who use this type of slander that provide evidence for the existence of this particular source and spiritual father, the god of this system of things, see argument from G.B.Shaw at 14:33:

a reply to: EasternShadow

You clearly have looked into this in terms of the academic studies, ad I totally respect that. Interestingly, I had a dream recently where I was in a marketplace or somesuch, with people packed around the stalls & streets, really busy & crowded. I then faced one person & asked "Where is El Elyon?" Why I would be asking that under those circumstances, I do not know - there was nothing supernatural about the scene, and I wouldn't have ordinarily considered to ask a spiritual question of a random stranger in the street. But as you probably know, El Elyon means "God the Highest", and so offers an example of the fact that Old Testament peoples had a multitude of names for God, and that each name represented an emanation, or divine form of God's attributes. Different circumstances called for naming God in different ways, and so calling upon El Elyon symbolised to me that I was searching for absolutes of Truth, Clarity, Wisdom, Vision, and Fellowship. I believe that dream, which was brief & otherwise unremarkable, may have been given for such a time as this, when someone asks or points out that God had different names/appellations according to different sources.

Indeed, as you probably also know, there are a number of sources for the OT which have been defined by scholars as J, E, D & P. This is why, in my statement that Christ, if he were indeed the author of the Hebraic scripture which has come down to us in 'modern/ Biblical Hebrew', was being true to the source documents, and their inconsistencies & errors, contradictions & so on, in order to highlight to us, here in the future with all our academic smarts, that the tale of a religion, and a Godhead, which has a remarkably consistent style & congruence of message despite centuries of time elapsed between each written section, is about more than the perfection which we might erroneously expect. It is about the blood, sweat, tears, fears, hopes & dreams, successes & failures, fallen & redeemed humanity of the race which was chosen for the Oracles to be made known to the world. It isn't a perfect work, in one respect - but in another, it is absolute perfection, if it is sourced from a mixture of success & failure, in terms of the Jewish people's efforts to describe their walk with the Creator, and yet tied together with uncanny depth of symbolism, in a language which in itself is remarkable for the same reason.

The books don't have to be perfect, the perfection rests in the depth of symbolism which has been incorporated into the works which came into our hands following 5000 years of history. I believe that only a divine hand could have brought perfection from failure.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: EasternShadow

And the God who met me in my time of misery & need, is a God of love, power & devotion, not an angry Victorian-era father scolding us for being evil little children, threatening to throw us on the garbage heap unless we love him more. So my only suggestion would be to humble yourself, and call on Him to reveal Himself to you, in your heart & mind. If you speak arrogantly about what you do not understand, does that make you wise, or does that make you senseless? Unless you reach out in faith, you will never know if what I say is true (that God loves us), as compared to what is not true (that God hates us).

Be strong & of good courage, and may the Lord meet you on the road.

That I exactly why I don't trust the bible in the entirely. I believe there are some truth. But most of them are lost in the mud. Need a lot of work to filter things out and make sense of it.

Thanks, your words comfort me. I believe you're being honest with meeting god personally. Your kind words prove you have met god before.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: EasternShadow
The books don't have to be perfect, the perfection rests in the depth of symbolism which has been incorporated into the works which came into our hands following 5000 years of history. I believe that only a divine hand could have brought perfection from failure.

Perfection is subjective to personal experience anyway. Therefore, it make sense the books don't have to be perfect. Yes it make sense now. You are right. I agree.

Thanks for the insight. It's worth something to ponder.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Yes. There is only one God.

What baffle me is the origin of YHWH and dividing nations among the gods as states by Deuteronomy 32:8-9

YHWH was indeed the rightful god of Israelites. But is HE the rightful god for other nations? All this biblical is intended for Israelites only. What about the rest of the world? What are their rightful gods?

While the Israelites did ask for God to send them a Messiah especially for them, Jesus (and God's Word) came through them, to them, and for them, but he extended salvation to the entire world as written in...

Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mark 16:20

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Acts 13:47

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

a reply to: whereislogic

So Jehovah chooses to become, or proves to be, whatever is needed to fulfill his righteous purposes and promises. An evidence of this is the fact that he bears a wide array of titles and descriptive terms: Jehovah of armies, Judge, Sovereign, Jealous, Sovereign Lord, Creator, Father, Grand Instructor, Shepherd, Hearer of prayer, Repurchaser, happy God, and many others. He has chosen to become all of these—and much more—in order to carry out his loving purposes.—Exodus 34:14; Judges 11:27; Psalm 23:1; 65:2; 73:28; 89:26; Isaiah 8:13; 30:20; 40:28; 41:14; 1 Timothy 1:11.

Reading that made my Easter Sunday, thank you.

As much as anything else, this thread was intended as a thought experiment to promote debate, which does seem to have occurred. I can't prove that Jesus literally authored the Old Testament text by compiling from source documents which were present before His time; but I do know that when I read scripture - when I really read it, from start to finish - the central message which shines through the difficulties of understanding, interpretation, the uncertainties, the sheer difficulty of the reading, is that we are to:

Work Justice;
Love Mercy;
Walk humbly with your God.

I don't think anyone who has ever read from start to finish with an inquiring heart & a determination to understand the Truth, could ever come to a different conclusion - unless their motives were not pure. God appears to each person as He wills, for purposes beyond our understanding - and only by humbling ourselves & admitting that He is too vast & inscrutable to ever understand by meager will alone, can we see revealed the One who is, was & always will be.

May God cause His face to shine upon you! Happy Easter, He is risen indeed.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Thanks, your words comfort me. I believe you're being honest with meeting god personally. Your kind words prove you have met god before.

That's very nice of you to say, thank you. From this & your other reply I can see that you are an honest person seeking the Truth. I sincerely wish you well, and hope that in this next phase of your life you will find yourself to be joyous & connected to the wonders of the universe, perhaps through nature you will find peace which sustains you. I hope that you will also find faith in a real & living sense, and yes, that God will meet with you & heal any hurt which has held you back. All things are possible for those who believe, because every nuance of our lives is known & understood by God. He knows the number of hairs on your head, and he knows the struggles you face. Although we can never guarantee that we will be free from our difficulties, we can be assured that God will be with us & will provide strength for the tasks which we must complete. He gives grace so we don't give up, even if we stumble & make mistakes. He is a father to the fatherless, and brings comfort to those in need, whoever turns to Him & asks for help.

God bless you, and may your life be filled with the power of His light.

a reply to: EasternShadow

Perfection is subjective to personal experience anyway.

That's some great wisdom there, very true, in human terms. When we consider how much of our collective experience is based on standards which are judged subjectively, it is quite remarkable that our society functions as well as it does (though Heaven knows, it is very unfair in some regards, such as with the unequal distribution of wealth).

Taking the matter of subjectivity forward, the only subjective Truth which can be assured as being true by all people, is the Truth of a God who is perfect. The standard for all of us is perfection, and indeed Jesus said: "Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." When he said this, he knew we would never be able to be perfect all the time, and he knew we wouldn't even agree regarding what was perfect & what wasn't. But the injunction is made simply so that we strive to live according to our best personal conception of perfection, at all times & in all things. So in that case, everything which is done with the aim of achieving perfection, is like a sacrifice on the altar of the soul, a gift to God from the best resources we have available - and it is therefore rewarded by God whenever we achieve the good which we set out to achieve.

Amen!

a reply to: whereislogic

I cannot and will not have a discussion about The Bible with folks that ridicule evolution and say things like:

False/incorrect. Before going any further, let's see if you can make a comment without so many or such blatant falsehoods in them. I could elaborate more on why I can tell that these are falsehoods, but there doesn't seem to be much point when they are this blatantly false and easily discovered if a person cares about speaking the truth about God and the bible's teachings or message. 

You haven't explained why you believe these things to be false other than relying on dogmatic material, which is a circular argument. You also didn't answer the question I posed to you. You're boasting your religious based opinions as facts. Not on this site.

So. You have a happy Easter sir.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

What makes you think Jesus could write at all?

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, and he wrote about great men of the past, but never mentioned hey zeus.... But then again the Jesus story hadn't been made up then so it makes perfect sense.

At the right hand of God he was/is a dictator.

Dictator in the sense he dictated the bible to peeps word for word.

Flagg....and neato ...The OT is about something called a Last Day or God's Day and Isaiha's or however you spell it guy on a cross with garmmets that they cast lots for but his bones are not broken....that guy