What does "gun control" mean at this point?

a reply to: network dude

The problem today is, kids don't understand why we're given the RIGHT to bear arms. I've seen so many morons proclaim, "You don't need an AR-15 assault weapon to hunt!". The amendment isn't for hunting, it's for a populace to protect themselves from a regime (either foreign or domestic) that would like to oppress its people.

Then of course, they also don't quite realize that an "assault" weapon isn't an assault weapon in the regards they are thinking. The military aren't running around with AR15's from your local gun store that Joe Everyman can purchase. These aren't truly "assault" weapons in the slightest, they bear more a function to regular hunting rifles with the exception of looking scary.

Kids today believe gun control should be any and all firearms that aren't wooden stocked rifles that look like they belong in the woods. You can take a 1900 Winchester rifle and show it to the kids and they'd agree that's a fine rifle for hunting. Take that same rifle though, paint it black and put a scope on it and BAM, assault rifle that needs to be banned in their eyes.

They're literally this ignorant.

I am just gonna say what I always say.

The highest or one off the highest per household gun nations (which is 100% of homes with a male 18 or older), Switzerland, has an almost non existent murder rate. And the most popular gun by far is a serious piece of machinery so saying ar15s are the problem is not true. Furthermore, it is quite a rare occasion when looking at the issue overall for legal guns to be murder weapons...you can get guns black market or even online now no problem. Believe me, the people responsible enough to hand over or sell back guns don't constitute much of the percentage of people turned murderers and imho its not a question of accessabilit but a question of culture. Call me racist at this point if it makes you feel better about your being better than I am not feeling the same way however what the country in these kids especially the millennial generation I mean need to understand is that as long as the main strand of pop-culture revolves around what came from and is still most popular in inner-city violent areas is rap. And my god get over the defending it I mean...I love rap. My second concert was my babysitter and myself (parents wouldn't let me go alone) at naughty by nature back in 92 or 93. But there are just some people who can hear it and hear the lifestyle glorified and not imitate it and some who cannot do so or who see it as the thing to do, protecting and patroing your turf, avenging a homie, etc. And lets be honest, something like 60% of the murders are gang related or turf wars or just angry project kid killing project kid. If you wanna taken it back to a point where you can join my bandwagon and not feel racist fine I admit it, several entities such as Rockefeller and women's lib, reconstruction bringing about welfare payment programs, and more created the perfect storm that had minority families, and black families who were nearly 90-95% two parent way back when, suddenly saw an epidemic of boys raised without dads guidance or modeling of appropriate behavior and things like gangsta rap imho couldbt have gotten nearly as big had the country been faced with a lingering epidemic of 2.3 kids and a dog living at home with mom and dad. And if it did develop boy would the lyrics be different.

"Jeepers, mister...what?
Jeepers, mister...who?"

"Yous a chaste respectable lady when you back dat keester up!

"Started talking smack, wouldn't you know I reached back like a pimp and I thought gee I should really go back to school and do something more productive with my life!"

a reply to: deltalima74

I wonder who it benefits though...?

The answer to that question may just hold the key, and answer all the other questions.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

This event is a pretty glaring example of “if the existing laws aren’t enforced then how will more laws fix the problem?”

A question which you haven’t done much to answer.

a reply to: Aegeus

not all of them.

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

This event is a pretty glaring example of “if the existing laws aren’t enforced then how will more laws fix the problem?”
A question which you haven’t done much to answer.

Couple of thoughts...
First being that there are a lot of solutions out there, but apparently keeping military-grade weapons at hand trumps keeping schoolkids from getting shot up.
Secondly, when was the last time you got up your lawmakers' collective arse about having those existing laws enforced? That's your reality...not mine.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

First: "military grade" is a meaningless term. Or, more accurately, military grade can mean anything somebody wants it to mean. My phone case is "military grade" according to the package it came in.

Second: why, I sent and received correspondence from my local Representative and both Senators less than a month ago. Granted, not about this issue specifically, but I still took the time to make my opinion heard. I have no problem writing a letter to them.

That's your reality...not mine.

I know, which makes your vitriol about it all the more irrelevant and unnecessary.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

This event is a pretty glaring example of “if the existing laws aren’t enforced then how will more laws fix the problem?”
A question which you haven’t done much to answer.

Couple of thoughts...
First being that there are a lot of solutions out there, but apparently keeping military-grade weapons at hand trumps keeping schoolkids from getting shot up.
Secondly, when was the last time you got up your lawmakers' collective arse about having those existing laws enforced? That's your reality...not mine.

can you explain what makes an AR-15 "military grade"?

you seem to have a strong opinion, I just want to be sure you understand the subject matter.

Just a few notes from reading this thread:

Lots of speculation here on what "kids today" understand or not. Sounds very laughingly familiar to every other older generation using people's youth against them. I know plenty of "kids today" and they are just as savvy, tough, smart (or NOT) as any other generation before.

Public education varies greatly, but in general is doing a stellar job with my kids (daughter is excelling, son still very young). Education needs revamping and evening-out, but is NOT the source of angst these days.

Rap music is not causing mass murders. I remember when Marylin Manson was blamed for Columbine, although the killers didn't even care for his music. If it were that simple a causation, obviously there would be as many murderers as there are rap fans.

The way the youth is treated is the way they will learn to treat others. If the older generation has such a poor opinion of the youth, this will manifest in their interactions and be repeated the next generation.

Kids are looking up to us (at an all time neurotic apex) as role models.

Network dude, I think this has been a useful activity but only if we don't let good discussion get lost in pointless and misguided blame. I really liked your idea of putting more resources in the schools to reach out to kids showing signs of trouble (in order to help and prevent, rather than punish at this point).

What "gun control" means at this point: no stock bumps for you. Problem solved. Case closed.

a reply to: zosimov

while I think we have had several good discussions on this topic, this particular thread has not even come close to answering the original question.

I was and am, genuinely curious to know what these kids who are marching on Washington today, want. I'm not mocking them, I just don't know what they wish to accomplish. Watching the news this morning, the group that was interviewed was saddened that the Florida government wasn't even interested in considering a ban on semi-automatic weapons. (which I am glad for, as that isn't where I think the problem lies)

If they have a message, it's not clear, at least to me.

originally posted by: network dude
can you explain what makes an AR-15 "military grade"?

Did you pay four times its worth to obtain it? Then it is without a doubt military grade.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

no, sadly all mine were purchased when prices were low. I even won one in a raffle. (Ar-15, a Remington pump shotgun, and a glock of my choice) It's been over a year, and I have yet to fire either long gun and I traded the Glock for a .22lr pistol for my boy.

But a tank is military grade. An AR-15 is a semi-auto weapon that fires the same size ammo as some military weapons. (it's not even a very good round. The .308 is a much better one. (IMHO)

a reply to: network dude

I imagine if they could put words to it, they might say something along the lines of:

We don't want to live in a world where anyone with a homicidal bent can acquire weapons that can snuff out hundreds of lives in a matter of minutes (10 minutes for Vegas massacre).

If a person wants to stockpile murderous weapons, armor, then perhaps there should be some major oversight, perhaps similar to what happens in Iceland (page 1).


As other posters have mentioned, we do put a limit on our own personal freedoms already. No one is arguing for the freedom to own a nuke. Maybe we can draw the firearm line a little farther back, with some more stringent rules for purchasing more deadly weapons.

Thanks again for engaging!

(Absolutely a proponent of bearing arms. I would hate to live UNder the "shield" of the UN for example. I also was very closely connected to victims affected by Columbine--hell, the whole community was deeply affected-- and have a perspective that others might not regarding school shootings: guns are NOT the cause but they are a useful tool. After losing his son in Columbine, Tom Mauser worked hard to change the laws which enabled the 17 y/o killers to legally acquire 3/4 weapons used).

originally posted by: network dude
(it's not even a very good round. The .308 is a much better one. (IMHO)

Which is why the AR I don't have is a .308.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck
First: "military grade" is a meaningless term. Or, more accurately, military grade can mean anything somebody wants it to mean. My phone case is "military grade" according to the package it came in.
Second: why, I sent and received correspondence from my local Representative and both Senators less than a month ago. Granted, not about this issue specifically, but I still took the time to make my opinion heard. I have no problem writing a letter to them.

That's your reality...not mine.

I know, which makes your vitriol about it all the more irrelevant and unnecessary.

You know what's behind the 'vitriol'...you are overspeaking that, btw? Kids getting slaughtered in first-world schools and the best that y'all can offer is 'thoughts and prayers'. And when I say 'military grade', let's just figure that I mean firearms made not for recreational hunting, but those specifically engineered to kill humans as efficiently as possible. You are reaping what you sow...either do something about it as a people, or suck it up as something that just gets done to your kids. Thought's and Prayers me arse!

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

... suck it up as something that just gets done to your kids...

A fair number of US folks are already there.

I had a poster here on ATS (honestly can't remember who) after the LV shooting say that effectively there were no amount of dead kids that should inhibit the right of US citizens to procure whatever weapons they want (up to including killing every child including their own) as the price they were willing to pay to keep their guns. The crux of their argument was the kids were all going to die anyways so why should they give up their guns for an already inevitable conclusion.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
... suck it up as something that just gets done to your kids...

A fair number of US folks are already there.
I had a poster here on ATS (honestly can't remember who) after the LV shooting say that effectively there were no amount of dead kids that should inhibit the right of US citizens to procure whatever weapons they want (up to including killing every child including their own) as the price they were willing to pay to keep their guns. The crux of their argument was the kids were all going to die anyways so why should they give up their guns for an already inevitable conclusion.

Not much I can say to that, so that means it's time for me to exit the topic.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Shamrock6

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

This event is a pretty glaring example of “if the existing laws aren’t enforced then how will more laws fix the problem?”
A question which you haven’t done much to answer.

Couple of thoughts...
First being that there are a lot of solutions out there, but apparently keeping military-grade weapons at hand trumps keeping schoolkids from getting shot up.
Secondly, when was the last time you got up your lawmakers' collective arse about having those existing laws enforced? That's your reality...not mine.

I know 1 person with "military grade" weaponry. He has a few, actually. He is licensed for them, and pays a hefty amount to purchase and own them.

The rest are not "military grade". They don't even do a 3 round burst, let alone full auto.

a reply to: Wayfarer

When I was younger I owned several guns. I live in the woods and thought they may come in handy. When my vision went dodgy, I gave up my weapons because I would never shoot at something that I was not sure I was seeing.

To date, I have not had a reason to use a gun. Everything that lives in the woods runs from me faster than I could ever run from it, and I hope they continue to do so.

Guns serve a purpose for many, and they can be lethal in the wrong hands, but I don't understand why people think that changing the gun laws or ridding the world of guns is going to stop the killing of children, single or in mass. If anything I would think it would make the situation far more lethal.

A quick Google of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, will show you that guns are not the only items that can cause mass deaths of children. By the way there were 19 children in that building at the time.

We have a problem and guns are not it.