What does "gun control" mean at this point?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Exactly.

Terrorist blows somethong up? The terrorist isblamed.
Drunk driver gets in an accident with fatalities? The deiver is blamed.
Someone gets shot? The gun is blamed and its a new push for gun control. The federal, military, local police, adults or guaedians, school officials, etc. Are all obsolved of any responsibility.

So I really do hope no more gun control laws are enacted. Its not going to be to protect the children, it will be to push the gun ban agenda. Just like so mamy posters here pushing the same debunked and culturally inappropriate "solutions".

There do need to be reasonable solutions that don't infringe on law abiding gun owners rights. I hope they can find them.

a reply to: Thanatos0042

Some folks here are immediatley closing their minds at the sound of 'gun control to any kind of reasonable logical debate. They are choosing to wallow in fear rather than critically and constructively assess whats going on and take steps to prevent it. Guns don't have to be banned completely to reduce gun deaths. When a kid can walk into a gun show and buy an AR-15 and a bump stock and go kill 30 people they still think the ready availability of said weapons isn't a factor then i think some are beyond reason at that point. Yes, mental healthcare plays a roll in some way, but so to does limiting the availability of such efficient killing tools.

Sometimes it almost sounds like I'm hearing calls to not only ignore gun control completely, but to open it up in new more heinous ways like allowing automatic grenade launchers or fully automatic machine guns for general sale because who doesn't want more pew-pew, and since the guns have nothing to do with it there's no reason to restrict them. By that logic why are we restricting claymore mines and chemical weapons for home defense or recreation?

a reply to: MikeA

This is worth a read, written by Sue Kliebold, mother of one of the Columbine killers.
www.oprah.com...

It's a highly nuanced subject that comes down to societal flaws as well as any individual parenting mistakes.

a reply to: Wayfarer

You are simply name calling and nothing more. Don't let your inability to hear counter arguments stop you.

Some summary of counter points I've seen to suggestions of gun control:

- the FBI should follow up on tips as per their standard protocol
- when a school suspends a child for trying to stab another student, the police should be notified and charges pressed
- when social workers visit homes with fosters, they should take note of events like 36 police visits

That sums up the stuff that is already supposed to be happening, but didn't. Any 1 of those steps could have prevented this. To me and many other gun owners (and constitutionalists), it seems like enforcing the tools already available are more prudent than creating more tools that won't be enforced (yet followed by law abiding citizens).

Part of my job is performing "post mortem" analysis the following day for each day of business. When I find that things went south, my first inclination is to examine where the processes may have failed. Its not to ignore this step and just start creating more processes. My wifes job, on the other hand, takes the opposite approach. She is so inundated with redundant paperwork that 1/4 of her shift is spent copying information from one sheet to another. One of our operations finds that it actually improves, while the other doesn't.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Wayfarer

You are simply name calling and nothing more. Don't let your inability to hear counter arguments stop you.

Some summary of counter points I've seen to suggestions of gun control:

- the FBI should follow up on tips as per their standard protocol
- when a school suspends a child for trying to stab another student, the police should be notified and charges pressed
- when social workers visit homes with fosters, they should take note of events like 36 police visits

That sums up the stuff that is already supposed to be happening, but didn't. Any 1 of those steps could have prevented this. To me and many other gun owners (and constitutionalists), it seems like enforcing the tools already available are more prudent than creating more tools that won't be enforced (yet followed by law abiding citizens).

Part of my job is performing "post mortem" analysis the following day for each day of business. When I find that things went south, my first inclination is to examine where the processes may have failed. Its not to ignore this step and just start creating more processes. My wifes job, on the other hand, takes the opposite approach. She is so inundated with redundant paperwork that 1/4 of her shift is spent copying information from one sheet to another. One of our operations finds that it actually improves, while the other doesn't.

I'm not sure what 'name calling' I was party to in my previous post, but you make a fair point that the breakdown of currently implemented regulations is a part of the problem. You are not the kind of person my previous post was referencing as you keep a level head about this debate and are open to ideas and suggestions (regardless of your opinion on them or your final determination therein).

More succinctly, for those that believe guns aren't the problem at all then why even have gun restrictions on any weapons whatsoever? I can't rationalize the disconnect between "well, obviously we shouldn't allow shoulder mounted RPG's for sale" when the same person makes the claim that the weapons themselves have nothing to do with the violence.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

This is a uniquely American problem. I don't see gun 'enthusiasts' rallying to find a solution.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Kids generally can't walk into a gun show and buy all of that. Nor has one. Buying a gun in a gun show requires all nromal state and/or federal checks, ID, etc. Now sure, a private seller MIGHT sell a gun to someone without checking, but really that hasn't been the origin of any mass shooter I can recall. That is just a misdirection to enact more unnecessary control.

The availability of the tools are already limited. Well, you know, as corrupt our government has gotten I'm thinking those people might be on to something. Its not like our founders didn't know about early machine guns, grenades and cannons. They chose not to restrict thgem. But that is another thread discussion entirely. The whole nuclear, chemical and biological counter argument is again just disingenuous and a misdirection.

Bigfurrytexan answered part of what i would have said. We need to enforce existing laws and fix where the process broke. No set of laws will ever prevent violence if someone is determined to do it. If kids are a national resource then why are they not being protected by the state or communities they are in. People need to get involved...this whole disconnection we have from one another is a big part of the problem. We should not be relying on the government to protect us from ourselves.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

This is a uniquely American problem. I don't see gun 'enthusiasts' rallying to find a solution.

Nonsense. Gun "enthusiasts" are providing solutions: use the rules, regulations, and laws that are already on the books and see if that helps. If not, then perhaps the holes can be filled with additional regulations.

a reply to: Wayfarer
I understand what you are trying to say and I admit that though I am not crazy about guns, I am one of those that are very leery of the push for any government involved gun control. I know that if you give the government an inch they will take a mile.

For the last 40+ years I have watched while our government slowly and insidiously, eased its way into controlling all aspects of our diagnosis and treatment. Not one of the measures taken had anything to do with what was best for the patients, it was always about what was best for big businesses and profits.

If a kid or anyone else is intent on shooting up a school or killing 1 or 30 people, and they want an AR-15 and a bump stock, or an automatic grenade launchers, a fully automatic machine gun, or a clay-more, they, just like any other terrorist or thug, they will get them.

If people think weapons are such evil items why do we allow them to be manufacturer? Why is no one making the manufactures responsible? For the same reason that innocent patients that are only guilty of having pain, and doctors that are relied on to treat that pain, are blamed for the opiod crisis, while the manufactures of the drugs are held blameless. Even when they knowingly ship in 20.8 million painkillers to West Virginia town of 3,000 residents.

You say that the innocent law abiding people that have followed the law in the acquisition of their fire arms, are wallowing in fear when they reject the suggestions for removal of guns from the populace, or more stringent government gun control. I have to disagree with you on that. It is not the law abiding gun owner that is wallowing in fear. They are fully aware of the dangers and have tried to take measures to deal with them. It is more likely that those people that are wallowing in the fear of guns, which doesn't allow them to make the distinction between a law abiding citizen, a thug, or mentally deranged person.

You can't control what someone else does. Tying your own hands limits further your choices for defense.

I understand that many people are grieving, feeling angry, depressed, even vengeful. None of those emotions are conducive to good decision making. Guns are not the cause of the school shootings. It is the cause that needs to be addressed and fixed. In order to do that we will have to stop shifting blame and take responsibility for this society that we have created.

You think it is tough getting people to agree on gun control? What kind of luck do you think we will have getting people to take responsibility for their own actions, or lack of?

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: MikeA

This is worth a read, written by Sue Kliebold, mother of one of the Columbine killers.
www.oprah.com...

It's a highly nuanced subject that comes down to societal flaws as well as any individual parenting mistakes.

Thank you that works really good at proving my point. She starts with pitty me, and ends with not my child. He would never do anything like that. She was clearly out of touch with what was going on in her son's life. I'm not just talking about what he was doing, but what others around him we're doing. Like I said "If you don't raise your kids, someone else will" It's up to each of us to stay involved in our kids lives, and remove the blinders. Stop the not my kid, not their fault BS. If one kid can watch Die Hard and come away thinking great movie why does another think great idea. For me it's simple, they have no respect for the rights of others. It's like thumper music, they all say the same thing. "I have a right to listen to whatever music I want". That much is true, but that right applies to everyone. Meaning I also have a right NOT to listen to that music, and they respond the same way. "I don't care". That's the problem. Everyone has the same rights and yours end at the end of your nose. That means you do not have the right to interfere with mine.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Wayfarer

You say that the innocent law abiding people that have followed the law in the acquisition of their fire arms, are wallowing in fear when they reject the suggestions for removal of guns from the populace, or more stringent government gun control. I have to disagree with you on that. It is not the law abiding gun owner that is wallowing in fear. They are fully aware of the dangers and have tried to take measures to deal with them. It is more likely that those people that are wallowing in the fear of guns, which doesn't allow them to make the distinction between a law abiding citizen, a thug, or mentally deranged person.

Wow, thanks for such a thorough response, very much appreciated.

I believe I owe you a correction/clarification regarding the 'wallowing in fear' statement in my previous post. The fear I was referring to was that gun legislation would restrict access to guns further.

a reply to: MikeA

Well at least you read it (maybe- did you read the end? where did it say not my kid?)

For the rest of my life, I will be haunted by the horror and anguish Dylan caused. I cannot look at a child in a grocery store or on the street without thinking about how my son's schoolmates spent the last moments of their lives. Dylan changed everything I believed about my self, about God, about family, and about love. I think I believed that if I loved someone as deeply as I loved him, I would know if he were in trouble. My maternal instincts would keep him safe. But I didn't know. And my instincts weren't enough. And the fact that I never saw tragedy coming is still almost inconceivable to me. I only hope my story can help those who can still be helped. I hope that, by reading of my experience, someone will see what I missed.

From what I saw, maybe one of the best things she could have done would be to force her son out of his solitude a bit more.
She noticed he spent a great deal of time in his room, playing video games (like millions of others of his generation and the generation right before).

No weapons stored there but maybe had she rooted out his journal she would have seen the flags. I haven't read them.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

This is a uniquely American problem. I don't see gun 'enthusiasts' rallying to find a solution.

Nonsense. Gun "enthusiasts" are providing solutions: use the rules, regulations, and laws that are already on the books and see if that helps. If not, then perhaps the holes can be filled with additional regulations.

If those things are not enacted, then it's just more hot air. That's what I meant by rallying...press Congress, press the state assemblies, press the NRA, press the gun merchants. Affect change...or stockpile those thoughts and prayers. Sounds like responsible gun ownership to me.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

This is a uniquely American problem. I don't see gun 'enthusiasts' rallying to find a solution.

you should stop until you understand things.

I am a gun enthusiast. A collector, a shooter, a CCW holder. I like them. But I have had enough of the kids being killed. If the solution is to remove my guns, prove to me that will save kids lives and take the muther #ers. But before you do that, I'd prefer you explore all the other avenues that have been suggested.

If the FBI didn't have enough help to deal with this issue, tell us, tax us and hire more, or better yet, abolish the IRS and take their funding, but hire enough people to do the damn job.

Local cops, do your job. If you have to go to the same house 36 times, and you don't realize there might be a problem, you are an idiot. You need to work at burger king.

Mental health system, how about we put one together and see if that helps anyone. Right now, there isn't one. If you think there is, you aren't paying attention and likely just got fired from Burger King.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck
Sorry, we're still a mite perturbed by seeing children massacred in their classrooms.

So am I, it would have been nice if the FBI did its goddamn job.

Sure. That fixes everything. It's all better now.

Instead, why not create more process and law that can be ignored by officials. That way we can keep piling on more and more ignored process and law until everyone has a gun but none of them are legal.

This is a uniquely American problem. I don't see gun 'enthusiasts' rallying to find a solution.

Nonsense. Gun "enthusiasts" are providing solutions: use the rules, regulations, and laws that are already on the books and see if that helps. If not, then perhaps the holes can be filled with additional regulations.

If those things are not enacted, then it's just more hot air. That's what I meant by rallying...press Congress, press the state assemblies, press the NRA, press the gun merchants. Affect change...or stockpile those thoughts and prayers. Sounds like responsible gun ownership to me.

What do you mean "enacted"? They are already enacted. All we need to do is make the public servants responsible for executing them DO THEIR DAMNED JOBS.

Im pressing as hard as I can to run a pineapple up the FBI's butt. Seems that im being told im distracting from some investigation with Russia. LOL

a reply to: network dude

I'm unsure what gun control would mean in this context but I think a ban on public education would be a great start to lowering school shootings. We are not even in the top 10 countries for K-12 education. Our educational system has been an experiment and that experiment has failed.

Make it all private with varying degrees of learning and punishment. You want your kids coddled then send them to your local shooting gallery where they churn out misfits and school shooters. You want a good kid, send them to the school where there are paddles, morals and they teach all the kids they are not special outside of their own homes. We would reduce all kinds of ills in society with the latter.

a reply to: Scifi2424

I like the way you think.

a reply to: Scifi2424
I have to laugh.When seeing all the hoopla all over the news about the sure way to prevent school shootings is to get rid of the guns, my first thought was, the only sure way to prevent school shootings is to get rid of schools.

After thinking about it a while, I realized that they have already gotten rid of education in schools, and has transitioned schools into social media controlled camps for children. Minions that they can control with a post, star, flag, or like.

The behavior of the children that is being encouraged and lauded is very telling. When the students were told not to walk 10 to 13 miles along heavily trafficed roadways, they decided they didn't need to listen to their parents, teachers or school officials, with the news media not only supporting them but encouraging people to bring them food and water to support them.

Now think about this for a minute. Motor vehicle accidents kill more children than school shootings, but the media encourages children to walk along busy highways to have their voices heard. It was reported that the school shooters had dysfunctional relationships with their peers, teachers, and some with their parents, but the media is encouraging children to disobey their parents and teachers, and school officials. Does any one but me see a problem with this?

a reply to: HighFive

May I ask, have you ever purchased a gun or rifle via private sale? Personally, I've sold one before. However, I required the purchaser to show me their CCW and a recent blue card, and sign a bill of sale. In my experience, most responsible gun owners who sell their guns privately police themselves and one another this way. I don't think any responsible gun owner wants to be the person that sold a gun to some mass shooter, which is why they do it that way. Also, in my state if you sell a handgun, it needs to be registered, so most people meet at the police station to change the ownership on the blue card.

If a felon wants a gun, no matter what, that transaction is illegal and there is no law that is going to stop them.

I'm not a fan of bump stocks and do not own "high capacity" magazines. Just standard 30 round magazines. Have you ever heard of Jerry Miculek? There are videos of him shooting 16 rounds in 4 seconds with a 9mm revolver, which includes reloading once. My point is, if there is a will there is a way. Whether its a handgun, rifle, car, knife, bomb, etc...it's the will to harm and commit evil that's the problem. We need to look at why the will is there in the first place. Is it our Media Coverage, turning these mass shooters into anti heroes by showing their faces over and over ad nauseam? Is it Hollywood glorifying guns and violence? Is it the Pharmaceutical Industry pushing prescriptions for everyone under the sun? Is it Social Media turning everyone into semi-stars for the stupidest things... which in turn makes these kids (adults too) think being famous is important? Is it our culture? Is it our unwillingness to discuss things in a rational manner, and instead of actually listening to one another, we're all just waiting for our chance to put in our 2 cents?

Maybe, just maybe we're being fed a bunch of propaganda (both sides), which is meant to divide us all. All I know is there is no benefit to us as Americans if we're at each other's throats, spewing talking points left and right.

I wonder who it benefits though...?