Pro_Life Violence

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
Murder is a sin no matter who does it or intention.

Isn't murder by definition killing with malice as intent?

The dictionary does not say murder is exclusively malice:

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

So killing someone in a car accident wouldn't count. But even if it's argued one must have malice to murder:

Main Entry: mal·ice
Pronunciation: 'ma-l&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin malitia, from malus bad
1 : desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse

I'd say an unborn child goes through pain and distress. Also, there's no legal justification or excuse in my mind.

In any case, how is aborting a child showing love for him/her?




[edit on 22-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Main Entry: mal·ice
Pronunciation: 'ma-l&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin malitia, from malus bad
1 : desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse

I'd say an unborn child goes through pain and distress. Also, there's no legal justification or excuse in my mind.

Whether it is justifiable in your mind is not relevent unless you write the rules of the land.
Desire to cause pain? Dependent of course on the age of the fetus and whether or not pain killers are used [and late term abortions are rare].. wouldn't it, for it to be called murder need to have an element of actual enjoyment on behalf of the mother? Now.. we've gone through many reasons why women have abortions.. none of them involved sadism. In the world of the born.. if someone kills someone else because they were defending their own life.. it is considered self defence and therefore manslaughter.. not murder. Intent is always considered when sentencing. If someone kills someone to get a cheap thrill.. it's called murder. Do you think women terminate pregnancies for a cheap thrill Saint4god? Do you put them into the same category as a sniper at a shopping mall? The abortion issue.. every woman that has one is called 'muderer' by prolifers.. they have monopolised the word purely because it demonises women, it's emotionally provocative and the word 'murder' suggests callousness.. which means people can condemn [now thats sadism] without bothering to comprehend the situation she's in. If they actually understood the entire issue of unwanted pregancy and campaigned on that angle as well there'd be less abortions.. but lazy as they are they'd rather say 'keep your legs shut'
Easier to point the finger than give a helping hand. I'm wondering how many of them have wasted time abusing women from picket lines while not teaching sex ed.

In any case, how is aborting a child showing love for him/her?

You need more than love to provide for a child.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Whether it is justifiable in your mind is not relevent unless you write the rules of the land.

You may 'bow to the man' but I believe I have a mind of my own.

Originally posted by riley
Desire to cause pain? Dependent of course on the age of the fetus and whether or not pain killers are used [and late term abortions are rare].. wouldn't it, for it to be called murder need to have an element of actual enjoyment on behalf of the mother? Now.. we've gone through many reasons why women have abortions.. none of them involved sadism.

Either I'm being unclear or this is spin. I'm talking about intent vs. non-intent. Let's talk about that.

Originally posted by riley
In the world of the born.. if someone kills someone else because they were defending their own life.. it is considered self defence and therefore manslaughter.. not murder.

It's not self-defense in this case. Besides, I don't believe in killing someone to defend yourself or others. Use non-lethal force if necessary.

Originally posted by riley
Intent is always considered when sentencing. If someone kills someone to get a cheap thrill.. it's called murder.

That's not was the dictionary said. Who's definition are you using now?

Originally posted by riley
Do you think women terminate pregnancies for a cheap thrill Saint4god?

No. Let's stay focused on the real issue please.

Originally posted by riley
Do you put them into the same category as a sniper at a shopping mall?

Do you know for a fact that it's a 'cheap thrill' for them? Again, off topic. Let's get back on track.

Originally posted by riley
The abortion issue.. every woman that has one is called 'muderer' by prolifers.. they have monopolised the word purely because it demonises women, it's emotionally provocative and the word 'murder' suggests callousness.. which means people can condemn [thats sadism] without bothering to comprehend the situation she's in. If they actually understood the entire issue of unwanted pregancy and campaigned on that angle as well there'd be less abortions.. but lazy as they are they'd rather say 'keep your legs shut'

I agree ignorance should be denied and understanding encouraged.

Originally posted by riley
Easier to point the finger than give a helping hand. I'm wondering how many of them have wasted time abusing women from picket lines while not teaching sex ed.

Schools won't let me teach sex ed, it wasn't my focus of study. Hm, perhaps I should switch careers.

Originally posted by riley

In any case, how is aborting a child showing love for him/her?

You need more than love to provide for a child.

Spin. Please answer the question.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by saint4God]

Alright, here another thing...... When you watch a nature film you say "No Mr.Hawk, eat the big bunny, not the baby." But when the baby is killed and eaten, the mother bunny goes and makes more babies. My mother had an abortion when she was in college, later she had my sister and then me. She didn't beat us for pleasure, she didn't torture us for fun, she loved us and was ready to care for us when she had us. She had an abortion and then later, when able to, had 2 more kids(would have been three, I should be a twin but as we say, I kicked him out early) that she loved and cared for. But some(keyword SOME) pro-lifers had their way she would have either been killed or sterilized after the first abortion.

Murder? It is considered murder when you do something with the intent to kill. But......... are you killing something not alive? A mass of cells 5 weeks old is not alive, if you take it out of the womb it isn't alive, but it isn't dead..........

I am hesitant on the subject of abortion because of one thing.
I am a male. Therefore, how can I decide what a female will do. I have never undergone the horror of rape. I cannot decide to denounce those people who have abortions because they were raped. Yes, I believe that the embryo is alive, but I wouldn't know.

Well, thats a problem to, as a male do we have the right to tell women what to do? It does take two to tango, but the fetus is in the woman, her body. According to Jesta we need to do whatever we can cause women are stupid and weak, according to non-christians women are equal to man, but that's besdies the point. But even as males, we do have the right to voice our opinions, just not blow places up or shoot people or beat them to death like most pro-lifers think they have the right to do.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
But even as males, we do have the right to voice our opinions, just not blow places up or shoot people or beat them to death like most pro-lifers think they have the right to do.

Now I am pro choice, but James, it seems like you are trying to feed a fire here with a statement like that. Especially when more than a few pro-lifers have said they are against the senseless violence which stems from their own cause. I think it is a little harsh to say MOST pro-lifers are ok with murdering.

Anyways, I think many pro-lifers would agree, murder is murder. It is only a minority of fanatical Chirstian nutbags that think it is ok to kill for a cause or that God will distinguish between the two types of murder.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
Whether it is justifiable in your mind is not relevent unless you write the rules of the land.

You may 'bow to the man' but I believe I have a mind of my own.

What?
You've justified calling women murderers.. by saying they have malice as intent because they are doing something YOU consider legally unjustifiable [clearly you know nothing about maternal health] yet abortion is.. legal. Technically- going by the REAL definition [and not *wishful thinking*] the term malice does not apply no matter how much you try twist and reinterprit it.. therefore the term 'murder' does not apply either.

I know this is might be devistating for some prolifers that their main catch phrase is acually complete BS [not to mention claiming false witness]
"But I want to take the moral high ground and call them murderer!!

"
- as I said earlier using the word casts a judgement on their motives.. that they are somehow evil, malicious, vindictive.
What did Jesus say about being judgemental?

Originally posted by James the Lesser
not blow places up or shoot people or beat them to death
like most pro-lifers think they have the right to do.

That's the dumbest thing I have heard you say.
You obviously have no facts to back that up. Got any stats on
what violence pro-lifers allegedly believe is okay to use? No. Because
LIKE I SAID BEFORE .. there are tens of millions of people who
are pro-life in this country. One or two a year will wig out.
You get wiggy people in every group and considering that only
one or two out of tens of millions get loopy .. those are VERY
good odds and definately NOT 'MOST PRO-LIFERS'.

This topic is now dead. There is obviously no common sense
being used and stupidity is now reigning. This isn't a conversation,
it's now just a spewing of garbage.

I'll leave with this ... THIS is what the culture of death brings
upon America ... (NOT brought to you by the pro-lifers)

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Murder? It is considered murder when you do something with the intent to kill.

This is a good definition. I'd like to use it when not having to look it up in the dictionary. Thanks!

Originally posted by James the Lesser
But......... are you killing something not alive? A mass of cells 5 weeks old is not alive, if you take it out of the womb it isn't alive, but it isn't dead..........

A valid argument I think. I can see your point though I don't agree. I'd probably be best for me to do some research before responsing. Is a mass of 5 week cells alive? I'll try to get back to you as soon as I can.

Originally posted by riley
You've justified calling women murderers..

Where did I say women are murders?

Originally posted by riley
by saying they have malice as intent because they are doing something YOU consider legally unjustifiable

Only in the intention of doing harm to a life. Not that they have angry feelings or are violent people.

Originally posted by riley
[clearly you know nothing about maternal health]

Clearly you know nothing about me.

Originally posted by riley
yet abortion is.. legal.

And therefore it's morally and ethically the right thing to do. Is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by riley
Technically- going by the REAL definition [and not *wishful thinking*] the term malice does not apply no matter how much you try twist and reinterprit it.. therefore the term 'murder' does not apply either.

The REAL definitions I got from the dictionary. There's no twisting or reinterpriting about it. The book is pretty literal. Here's an online version for convenience: www.merriamwebster.com...

Originally posted by riley
I know this is might be devistating for some prolifers that their main catch phrase is acually complete BS [not to mention claiming false witness]
"But I want to take the moral high ground and call them murderer!!

"
- as I said earlier using the word casts a judgement on their motives.. that they are somehow evil, malicious, vindictive.

I did not say that those who elect to have abortions are evil, angrily malicious, nor vindictive. In fact, I believe they are hurt, confused, ashamed (in some cases) and in pain. How could I feel anything but love for these people? What good would I do for someone who is in their daily life without a care in the world?

Originally posted by riley
What did Jesus say about being judgemental?

I like how you were pretty judgemental of me in this response ("clearly you know nothing of maternal health"). But in answer to your question, Matthew 7:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take that speck out of your eye', when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank you of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

If you'd like a copy of the Book, I'll send you mine.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
You've justified calling women murderers..

Where did I say women are murders?

You don't think they are?

Only in the intention of doing harm to a life. Not that they have angry feelings or are violent people.

It may not be something they want to do.. options in life are not always available.. the need for them though is infinite.

Originally posted by riley
[clearly you know nothing about maternal health]

Clearly you know nothing about me.
No?:

I'd say an unborn child goes through pain and distress. Also, there's no legal justification or excuse in my mind.

Obviously there is much knowledge lacking in your mind to make this conclusion. I already provided examples where there is no choice but to abort a pregnancy.. ectopic pregnancies, another complication is where the fetus is so malformed it actually turns into cancer and spreads through the body.. another where the fetus' head grows to the size of a basket ball and the only way to remove it is to do the late term abortion [I agree it is gruesome but it is apparently too big to c section it] another.. where the fetus' insides [intestines etc] are actually growing on the outside of it's body and the only thing keeping it intact is the sac..

..now you see why I didn't post these earlier..

Originally posted by riley
yet abortion is.. legal.

And therefore it's morally and ethically the right thing to do. Is that what you're saying?

I guess that wuld depend on the circumstances. It's not my place to judge another woman's decisions in regard to her own body.

I did not say that those who elect to have abortions are evil, angrily malicious,

but still malicious?

nor vindictive. In fact, I believe they are hurt, confused, ashamed (in some cases) and in pain. How could I feel anything but love for these people? What good would I do for someone who is in their daily life without a care in the world?

Acknowledged.. I noticed you did not partake in the woman bashing on this thread.

Originally posted by riley
What did Jesus say about being judgemental?

I like how you were pretty judgemental of me in this response ("clearly you know nothing of maternal health").

That was just a pretty accurate guess.

But in answer to your question, Matthew 7:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take that speck out of your eye', when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank you of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

One of the few things in the bible I actually agreed with.
[that and gospel of st thomas [page fell out] and the turning water into wine thing.]

[edit on 23-3-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
Where did I say women are murders?

You don't think they are?

No.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
Clearly you know nothing about me.

No?:

All that's known is what I've said. If that counts for anything, then sure, give points but that's far from making claims about my life and/or knowledge. I think it takes quite a bit more to know someone.

Originally posted by riley
Obviously there is much knowledge lacking in your mind to make this conclusion.

Here we go with the judgemental claims again...

Originally posted by riley
I already provided examples where there is no choice but to abort a pregnancy.. ectopic pregnancies, another complication is where the fetus is so malformed it actually turns into cancer and spreads through the body.. another where the fetus' head grows to the size of a basket ball and the only way to remove it is to do the late term abortion [I agree it is gruesome but it is apparently too big to c section it] another.. where the fetus' insides [intestines etc] are actually growing on the outside of it's body and the only thing keeping it intact is the sac..

..now you see why I didn't post these earlier..

What percentage? I've posted them eariler on the thread. So if you're defending this small percentage of medical life or death situations then by all means do so. I'm talking about the practice, not special circumstances. That's why we have doctors who took the Hippocratic Oath -

www.pbs.org...
Applicable excerpt:

"Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God."

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley
yet abortion is.. legal.

And therefore it's morally and ethically the right thing to do. Is that what you're saying?

I guess that wuld depend on the circumstances. It's not my place to judge another woman's decisions in regard to her own body.

Then do not judge, but do not be afraid to advise because you're not in that person's shoes. Listen, ask, and council. I think a wise person would seek advice from a lot of different people before making such a heavy decision.

Originally posted by riley

I did not say that those who elect to have abortions are evil, angrily malicious,

but still malicious?

Excellent pick-up, I was hoping it'd be perceived. According to the definition as I'd quoted it, one can be malicious without being angry, violent, hateful, etc. All that needs to be there is intent.

Originally posted by riley
Acknowledged.. I noticed you did not partake in the woman bashing on this thread.

Thank you. I do appreciate being given some props for regarding human life as precious.

Originally posted by riley
That was just a pretty accurate guess.

A guess that was based on prejudice, whether true or untrue. Personally I find it untrue.

Originally posted by riley
One of the few things in the bible I actually agreed with.

I'd be interested in hearing about other things you agree and disagree with as well. Maybe you could start a thread sometime?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by saint4God
Where did I say women are murders?

You don't think they are?

No.

okay then.

All that's known is what I've said. If that counts for anything, then sure, give points but that's far from making claims about my life and/or knowledge. I think it takes quite a bit more to know someone.

I was only referring to your knowledge regarding maternal health.. not you as an individual.

What percentage? I've posted them eariler on the thread. So if you're defending this small percentage of medical life or death situations then by all means do so. I'm talking about the practice, not special circumstances.

Again, you previously said:

Also, there's no legal justification or excuse in my mind.

Mis-communication then. You said 'no justification'.. not rarely or 'exluding health reasons'. I remembered figures being posted however after you said that I figured someone else must have posted it contradicted your opinion [and ectoptic pregnacies aren't rare.. the woman I know who had one was carrying twins in the tube.. she's lucky to have survived].

Then do not judge, but do not be afraid to advise because you're not in that person's shoes. Listen, ask, and council. I think a wise person would seek advice from a lot of different people before making such a heavy decision.

I had a friend recently who fell pregnant.. I advised her to do what she felt she could cope with.. not to listen to her family and to stick to her guns.
She listened.. and didn't have an abortion after all. Should be getting an honorary niece/ nephew soon.

Excellent pick-up, I was hoping it'd be perceived. According to the definition as I'd quoted it, one can be malicious without being angry, violent, hateful, etc. All that needs to be there is intent.

However the every day usage of the word suggests callousness.

Originally posted by riley
That was just a pretty accurate guess.

A guess that was based on prejudice, whether true or untrue. Personally I find it untrue.

Was stirring.. I need to use emoticons more often.

Originally posted by riley
One of the few things in the bible I actually agreed with.

I'd be interested in hearing about other things you agree and disagree with as well. Maybe you could start a thread sometime?

The first half. God seemed to have some serious anger management issues.. thats why the son took over the business [was too old fashioned I guess].

[edit on 23-3-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Again, you previously said:

Also, there's no legal justification or excuse in my mind.

Mis-communication then. You said 'no justification'.. not rarely or 'exluding health reasons'.

I sit corrected then. Nice work . I will submit then, that if carrying the child results in the death of both, then a decision needs to be made.

Originally posted by riley
I remembered figures being posted however after you said that I figured someone else must have posted it contradicted your opinion [and ectoptic pregnacies aren't rare.. the woman I know who had one was carrying twins in the tube.. she's lucky to have survived].

I am greatful to hear your friend pulled through. At the risk of sounding presumptuous, I'm sure she would testify that she made the right decision and cannot see why anyone would disagree. If there were an alternative like most abortions (actually raising the child and/or adoption) I think that may be the 'right thing to do'. Our laws should be encouraging people to do the right thing. Our laws cannot make people do the right thing in a lot of cases (*ahem* speeding, software pirating, etc.). I didn't mean that the numbers were few, I meant more of the percentage of reasons why people get abortions. The survey was both national and international with a very extensive test population. The link has details. When I talk about the percentage, it's not my opinion. Rather, it's the opinion or reasons of the women who filled out the survey.

Originally posted by riley
I had a friend recently who fell pregnant.. I advised her to do what she felt she could cope with.. not to listen to her family and to stick to her guns.
She listened.. and didn't have an abortion after all. Should be getting an honorary niece/ nephew soon.

Hoorah! Congratulations! Wonderful news. It's so good to hear good news since there's so little of it being told.

Originally posted by riley
However the every day usage of the word suggests callousness.

This is true. I tried my best to not make it sound this way.

Originally posted by riley
Was stirring.. I need to use emoticons more often.

Oh, okay then.

Originally posted by riley
I'd be interested in hearing about other things you agree and disagree with as well. Maybe you could start a thread sometime?

The first half. God seemed to have some serious anger management issues.. thats why the son took over the business [was too old fashioned I guess].

New topic! I'll start:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 23-3-2005 by saint4God]

Just to let everyone know and to hopefully shed some light on other people. I have somewhat changed my stance on this whole matter. Let me first off say I will never allow any of my children to be aborted, I have 3 already, that's enough, but if an accident happens, then so be it. I still think it is wrong to abort a baby, however...

I am not going to call myself pro-choice, but I'm not going to preach against it anymore. This is how I see it now, it's part of the system. Not only do I see this as bad from a spiritual standpoint, but I think the powers that be in this world are all about abortion. Population control if you will. Not only population control, but welfare control. I find it an evil force in this world, but as long as society works the way it does, some women will just not even think twice about it. I hope the creators, god, or whoever finds some mercy on the women who do abort because, as Jesus said, "Forgive them father, they know not what they do." Our world makes us think that we have to have fat bank accounts so that we can buy SUV's, vacation homes, new stereo systems, etc. It's hard to decide when you think that life is all about our earthly belongings, which is what our planet is all about right now. Even the would-be mothers who may never afford an SUV or something of that sort, they tend to think the world is about partying on the weekends and rock/rap concerts, etc. It is also probably even harder for them to decide in their younger minds.

Plus, as long as people keep painting the picture that the fetus/embryos are nothing more than a lump in their womb, then they find the decision to abort even easier. As for those who are raped, well, there is a morning after pill which I hope most will use, that I can agree with. But the fact is, not all abortions come from raped victims, and it's hard for me to make a decision in this case.

My overall point is that the system is here and they don't want us making babies. They don't want us to have families that keep strong traditions. It is harder for the system to impose their beliefs upon us if we have our own culture that is too strong for them to break apart. Therefore, they weaken the family and penetrate into every aspect of our life. It's a sad world, driven to compete for the biggest SUV around. I still feel for those babies that are aborted, but until we beat the system, abortions are going to happen, might as well make it safer for the women....

Peace...

Originally posted by steggyD
My overall point is that the system is here and they don't want us making babies.

This is an interesting perspective. Notice the push towards dual-income families to have any kind of economic stability? Have you seen how there's a "put 'em in daycare and get back to work" response from employers? I'm still trying to pay for my college and somehow I've got to come with a plan to pay for my kid's before she hits 18. They 'system' is money. Everyone expects you to have it, yet when you need it, nobody else has any. Hmm....why is Pink Floyd playing in my head?




[edit on 23-3-2005 by saint4God]

FlyersFan, did you see the links? Did you see the crater that use to be a childrens hospital? Did you see the two bodies of women beaten to death outside a abortion clinic?(pregnant even, I guess it's only killing a baby when doctors do it) Of course not, it was PHOTOSHOP! Liberal Media! Jews on Christmas! Anything else to keep these blinders on!

i was just wondering... all these people that say that a fetus is not a life, not an individual , blha blah blah ... what would have happen to you if your mothers thought the same way ???

Sen Hillary Clinton and Sen John Kerry have both stated that "life beigns at conception", yet they are two of the "poster children" for abortion and excuse themselves saying "fetus are not a life"... well if a fetus is not a life or alive, how exactly does it grow??? as far as know the only dead stuff that keeps on growing in a great number is CRAP.... dea things do NOT GROW. therefore a fetus must be alive and if it alive it has a life !

we are now living in a great society where abortion is concidered by many as Birth Control and starvation of a helpless woman is concidered a humain death .... what is wrong with me ??? i just see the beauty in all this ???

"was just wondering... all these people that say that a fetus is not a life, not an individual , blha blah blah ... what would have happen to you if your mothers thought the same way ???"

Did you not read my post? My MOM has gotten an abortion. She had one when she was in college cause she couldn't handle a kid then. Later she had my sister and then me. So, instead of killing people for getting abortions or sterilizing them, realize that they wait until they can care for a kid. Like my mom, she wasn't able to handle a kid when she was 22, but when she was 31 she was able to and had 2 even.

That is what would happen if our parents thought that fetuses aren't life. They would still have kids. Pro-Choice means you have a choice, unlike the other side which is "You make a choice in our favor or WE KILL YOU!!!!!"

I love christians, the same people who want to kill the gays, enslave the blacks, kill the jews, enslave the women, you know, like it was back in the good ol days when the Church controlled Europe, but save the fetuses!!!!

[edit on 23-3-2005 by James the Lesser]