Pro_Life Violence

Christianity Catholicism and God make me wanna puke!!! How dare they say it's wrong to use contraception. All women are in that damned fire-threatening religion are breeding machines. Catholics think birth control is wrong even if a pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother.
Did anyone know that the Pope's mother died giving birth to his younger brother? Yet the old bat is against contraception.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by saint4God
What about nocturnal emission?

That's not a freely given decision by the person. It's a natural
thing the body does that can't be helped. The person is in an
altered state of conciousness.

I'm glad that's realized.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
That's the modern thought.
Some older protestant thoughts considered 'wet dreams' to be
just as sinful as adultry. Now that people understand the
science behind them, they aren't considered as such by most
Christians who believe Onanism to be a sin.

But not older Catholic? So...it was a sin but now it's not? I think that's what happens when we don't stick to scripture.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Protestants Against Contraception -
www.catholic.com...

I agree it's not entirely a Catholic or Protestant school of thought, but I'm not really considered what people 'think' if it's not based on what's written or personally revealed by God.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Excerpt (with bible quotes)-

LUKAS OSIANDER
(SIXTEENTH-CENTURY LUTHERAN)
"[Onan’s contraceptive act] was an abhorrent thing and worse than
adultery. Such an evil deed strives against nature, and those who do it
will not possess the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–10). The holier marriage
is, the less will those remain unpunished who live in it in a wicked and
unfitting way so that, in addition to it, they practice their private acts of
villainy" (Commentary on Genesis).

Hold up, that's not what my Bible says. Why not?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
JAMES USSHER
(SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY ANGLICAN BISHOP)
"How doth a man exercise uncleanness in [the sexual] act? Either by
himself or with others. How by himself? By the horrible sin of Onan (Gen.
38:9), lustful dreams and nocturnal pollutions . . . arising from excessive
eating and unclean cogitations or other sinful means" (On the Seventh
Commandment).

*****************************************************

Hold again please. The sin in this case, was that he was to fulfill a promised duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce off-spring. He went against his promise and opted to make sure she didn't get pregnant. My bible says nothing about lustful dreams and nocturnal pollutions. Wait, didn't you just say these were not a sin anyway?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I only put this forth because someone here said that the bible doesn't
talk about condoms being a sin. Well .... some Christian faiths DO think
it does - Onanism. This isn't just a Catholic thing. I know some protestants
believe it to be a sin - some Presbyterians for example.

Per above, I agree. Again though, I'm here to learn about God, not what other people think.

I seriously appreciate your time and research into this. I am open to resolution one way or the other and am not interested in winning an argument. If you have more material or want to talk about what we've gone over, I'd like to continue to do so.

Further on you mentioned using contraception is also a sin. I'd like to delve further into this topic as well. Again, the verses quoted was a failure to perform a promised duty. In that case, yes, failure to perform a promised duty is a sin because the woman and the brother both believe this person is trying hard to produce off-spring. In other words, he's participating in a lie in words and actions. I'm missing the correlation between that and contraception.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by ufo_believer
Christianity Catholicism and God make me wanna puke!!!
How dare they say it's wrong to use contraception.

I am pointing out that it's not 'just' a Catholic thing.
It's an old CHRISTIAN IN GENERAL thing. Some protestants
still consider contraception a sin because of the Onanism thing.

What makes me kind of tired is that some nonchristians in here feel the need to misexplain rules and regulations that were made by extremists.
If you don't understand it, fine. It's pretty complex and sometimes I don't get it either. But the quick judging of "those christians" makes you just as bad as the next extremist christians spouting his crap.

I am a christian and I don't think God is against using condomns. God understands the situation better than anyone here.

Originally posted by saint4God
Some older protestant thoughts considered 'wet dreams'
to be just as sinful as adultry.

But not older Catholic? So...it was a sin but now it's not?

Oh ... sorry ... I thought it was a 'given' that everyone
understood that. YES. ALL Christians - both Catholic and
Protestant - until recently believed 'wet dreams' to be
sinful. Now that the science behind them is understood,
and people understand basic human biology better, both
Catholic and Protestant churches understand that what
happens in dreams is not sinful because it is in an
altered state of conciousness.

So yes ... it was considered a sin before even though the
people 'sinning' had no control over it. Thankfully, now
people better understand that it never was a sin.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by saint4God
But not older Catholic? So...it was a sin but now it's not?

Oh ... sorry ... I thought it was a 'given' that everyone
understood that. YES. ALL Christians - both Catholic and
Protestant - until recently believed 'wet dreams' to be
sinful. Now that the science behind them is understood,
and people understand basic human biology better, both
Catholic and Protestant churches understand that what
happens in dreams is not sinful because it is in an
altered state of conciousness.

So yes ... it was considered a sin before even though the
people 'sinning' had no control over it. Thankfully, now
people better understand that it never was a sin.

Okay, thanks for clarifying . It's a shame though that there were a great deal of young adults who thought for centuries they were sinning and were stressing, crying, thinking they were complete garbage and such because of the misunderstanding.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
What I posted was just fine. You don't like it? That's your
problem. I gave the name of the 'sin' and told him to
google it up for more info. That's enough. Go nanny
someone else. I'm not listening.

The things you said earlier, were they ment to be the opinion of the people following that religion you were explaining, or was your "god is the same always, right?" comment your own addition/explanation for their way of thinking?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by FlyersFan
LUKAS OSIANDER
(SIXTEENTH-CENTURY LUTHERAN)
"[Onan’s contraceptive act] was an abhorrent thing and worse than
adultery. Such an evil deed strives against nature, and those who do it
will not possess the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–10). The holier marriage
is, the less will those remain unpunished who live in it in a wicked and
unfitting way so that, in addition to it, they practice their private acts of
villainy" (Commentary on Genesis).

Hold up, that's not what my Bible says. Why not?

1 Cor 6:9-10 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

LUKAS OSIANDER, a 16th century Lutheran, made his commentary
(quoted above) about Onanism. He equated onanism with being WORSE
than adultary and then he stated that adulterers won't go to heaven.
You bible doesn't contain Lukas' commentary because most bibles don't
have commentaries. I posted the quote from Lukas Osiander to show that
the HISTORY of the protestant faith is to believe that Onanism is a major
sin worthy of damnation. Some protestants continue to believe this is true.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by FlyersFan
JAMES USSHER
(SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY ANGLICAN BISHOP)
"How doth a man exercise uncleanness in [the sexual] act? Either by
himself or with others. How by himself? By the horrible sin of Onan (Gen.
38:9), lustful dreams and nocturnal pollutions . . . arising from excessive
eating and unclean cogitations or other sinful means" (On the Seventh
Commandment).

The sin in this case, was that he was to fulfill a promised duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce off-spring. He went against his promise and opted to make sure she didn't get pregnant. My bible says nothing about lustful dreams and nocturnal pollutions. Wait, didn't you just say these were not a sin anyway?

1. I agree with your assessment of the paragraph being examined.

2. You bible doesn't mention lustful dreams and nocturnal pollutions
because this is a commentary on the bible. Note the date - 17th
century. At that time, the Episcopalians tied all lust together in one
big bundle. Onanism was tied together with lust and the nocturnal.
To the people then, it was all one big LUST.

3. Yes, lustful dreams and 'nocturnal pollutions' are NOW understood
not to be sins. Again, look at the date. I posted these to show the
HISTORY of what was considered sin (and what is now not to be
considered sin.)

4. Onanism is still considered to be a sin by many christians. Lustful
dreams and nocturnals are not considered to be part of Onanism
any longer. Just the 'spilling of seed' without procreative purposes.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by saint4God
Hold up, that's not what my Bible says. Why not?

1 Cor 6:9-10 - Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the
kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Mine says "homosexual offenders" but otherwise, yes! That's it! That's what my Bible says. So ah, where's the bit about Onanism and contraception again? Oh, here's the claim...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
LUKAS OSIANDER, a 16th century Lutheran, made his commentary
(quoted above) about Onanism. He equated onanism with being WORSE
than adultary and then he stated that adulterers won't go to heaven.
You bible doesn't contain Lukas' commentary because most bibles don't
have commentaries. I posted the quote from Lukas Osiander to show that
the HISTORY of the protestant faith is to believe that Onanism is a major
sin worthy of damnation. Some protestants continue to believe this is true.

Hmmm. I agree with the statement that some Protestants once believed this and that some still do, I just fail to see the correlation with the Bible. Fortunate for me I'm not asked to represent Protestantism, rather God and his instructions to us. Don't get me wrong, I with all John 3:16'ers because according to that promise we're brothers and sisters in Christ but just as I hold that passage dear, I hold all other Biblical passages dear too. Nothing written/said more, nothing written/said less.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm here to learn about God, not what other people think.

Well, that's a problem then because this thread is discussing
alleged 'pro life violence'. Someone mentioned that there would
be less unwanted pregnancy with condoms and that the bible
doesn't say anything against condoms. That's when I jumped in
and said that the fact of the matter is that many people BELIEVE
that the bible does say that contraception is a major sin. You
have to understand where people are coming from, what they
believe and WHY they believe it, even if what they believe is
incorrect or different from what you believe. This helps people
understand WHY some of the unwanted pregnancies happen.

NOTE - I have the same interpretation of that scripture passage
as you do however the fact remains that many Christians do not
share our interpretation and their interpretation is what rules
their life and that MAY be the cause of some unwanted pregnancies.
Onanism is still a sin on the Catholic books, and is still a sin in
some protestant books (once upon a time it was in all the protestant
books as well)

9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That is what the bible says.
Now according to some effimates may be homosexuals, but who says that effimates couldn't be man who dress like woman?

Originally posted by Jakko
I am a christian and I don't think God is against using condomns.
God understands the situation better than anyone here.

I fully agree with you. However, someone here said that to help
end unwanted pregnancies CONDOMS should be used and that the
bible doesn't say 'no condoms allowed' (paraphrase). That's when
I jumped in and said ... many people have interpreted the bible to
say just that ... no contraception. I posted the information on where
those people get their interpretation and why. I have not been sold
on that interpretation, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that
THEY believe it to be true and so to them ... the bible does indeed say
'no condoms'. Also, I posted why this will not change for the Catholic
church. Some of the protestant churches have changed their position,
others have just fogotten their position and offered no explaination
for the change, but still there are some protestant churches that still
teach Onanism.

Anyways ... now everyone understands Onanism.

Originally posted by saint4God
Further on you mentioned using contraception is also a sin.

Actually, what I said was that there are Christians who believe that
contraception is a sin. (didn't say that I believed it). Some of that
belief is based on Onanism. However, there are other scripture
quotes and commentaries upon them that have caused them to
come to that conclusion. I'll see what I can come up with for you
as to why they believe that to be true and I'll come back and post here.
I remember reading a thesis (or something like a thesis) written by
Kimberly Haun - wife of a Presbyterian minister, daughter of a
Presbyterian minister - as to why scripturally contraception is wrong.
I'll see if I can google up anything on this and I'll get back to you.

Originally posted by Jakko
The things you said earlier, were they ment to be the opinion
of the people following that religion you were explaining, or
was your "god is the same always, right?" comment your own
addition/explanation for their way of thinking?

I was explaining the position of the people who thought Onanism
is a sin - because it was punishable by God with death in the OT,
then God, being a just God, would STILL consider it a sin punishable
by death now.

I DO believe that God doesn't change. However, I am not sold on
Onanism being a sin. I don't think they got the interpretation of
what happened in that chapter correct. BUT .. my opinion doesn't
matter. What matters is that many, many people DO believe in
their interpretation of this bible chapter and so .... as far as THEY
are concerned ... contraception is a sin because it is onansim -
the spilling of seed punishable by (eternal) death by God.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a shame though that there were a great deal of young
adults who thought for centuries they were sinning ...

I agree. This carries into other areas that we understand
better too. For many decades, when a protestant woman
gave birth on a Sunday .. she'd get locked in the stocks for
a few weeks for because obviously she 'sinned' on a Sunday
nine months earlier (had sex on a Sunday) in order to have
a baby birthed on a Sunday. She was considered a
sinful woman to give birth on a Sunday. No punishment for
the dad though.

But that's off topic of this discussion .... (thought you'd find it
interesting though)

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a shame though that there were a great deal of young
adults who thought for centuries they were sinning ...

I agree. This carries into other areas that we understand
better too. For many decades, when a protestant woman
gave birth on a Sunday .. she'd get locked in the stocks for
a few weeks for because obviously she 'sinned' on a Sunday
nine months earlier (had sex on a Sunday) in order to have
a baby birthed on a Sunday.

She was considered a
sinful woman to give birth on a Sunday. No punishment for
the dad though.

But that's off topic of this discussion .... (thought you'd find it
interesting though)

Eghads! Next you're going to tell me Protestants falsely accused women for being witches because they tried to help their sick family and as a result, the Protestant leadership did all sorts of messed up trials like throwing a women into water to see if she floats (meaning she's a witch) or stake-burnings to see if she burns (if not, she a witch). Oh the horrible feats we commit when we jump to conclussions beyond what is written. Take down the numbers though and look at the percentages. Of all the Protestants that ever lived in history, what percentage did this? The same argument can be made for the sins of Catholism. Some of my Protestant forefathers were messed up. My other ethnic for forefathers were too. My Judiac forefathers made mistakes too. I could apologize for Adam and Eve, but really there's no point. Jesus made the point well, "Let you who is without sin..." well, ya'know . My point is, the followers of the Word know what's right, good and true and surpasses the one who 'thinks' they know the word when clearly adding to or defying what's written. That to me was more to the heart of the Protestant Reformation, not every sermon that was ever given by Protestants. Just a perspective, not pushing anything on anyone.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Next you're going to tell me Protestants falsely accused women for being witches because they tried to help their sick family and as a result, the Protestant leadership did all sorts of messed up trials like throwing a women into water to see if she floats (meaning she's a witch)

Nope ... I'd tell you that both Protestants AND Catholics did that one!
Unbelievable, huh? If you floated (knew how to swim) that ment you
were a witch and you'd be burned at the stake. If you sank and drown
then you were innocent. Dead. But innocent.

(freak'n idiots!)

Who agrees with me that this world would be a seriously better place if all religions went obsolete? Spirituality would exist but no strict religious dogmas. Everyone could just live in peace and respect eachother's beliefs.

AND......

NO MORE BIBLES!
NO MORE CHURCH!
NO MORE DIRTY LOOKS FROM PREACHERS!