Pro_Life Violence

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by DrHoracid
OK, just to "liven" things up. A "baby" does not get its "soul" until it take a breath of air once born.

I read somewhere that when abortion was first made illegal [1800s] that Christians were actually against it because that would go against the belief [at the time] that a soul enters the body when it's born. Ironic yes.. obviously the interpritation of the bible changed drastically over the last century.

While in the womb, the "thing" is a human baby from conception.

The thing is a fetus.. not a baby.. as is the dictinction between baby and toddler.

When the first cell division starts that is "Life". But the child does get a soul until birth.

I thought the whole pro-life argument hinged on the fetus having a soul at conception? To say that it doesn't would be more in favour of a pro-choice argument as being 'soul less' would reduce it's 'holy value' to being just a mass of tissue.

[edit on 23-2-2005 by riley]

Murder is Murder. The word "fetus" is latin for "offsring" or "young one". ie Baby! It has been used to reduce the public perception of murdering "babies".

Oh how strange. So something without a soul can be murdered?

I find it amusing that all of the Christians on here are shouting about "Thou shall not kill" yet it seems that monotheistic religion (most specifically Christianity) is the most violent religion in the world.

www.infidels.org...

I have often wondered if the lunatics of the Republican 'God Squad' know how much Hitler would have loved them. That idiot from Idaho, Republican Helen Chenoweth wanted us to have a national day of "fasting and humiliation before God." This was a follow up to her extended period of adultery. George W. Bush said a few years ago that "people who do not accept Jesus Christ will not go to heaven." So much for the Jews and Buddhists and all U.S. citizens not Christian. And he wants to be the President.

It is religion that, historically, has always produced violence. From Moses to the Crusades, Henry VIII, Salem, Hitler, Kosovo. Today, in our own time, it is those countries without religion that are the LEAST vilolent.

America is the most 'religious' of the world's industrialized nations, and yet is the most violent nation in the world.

And finally, a few quotes to further support this (from www.users.qwest.net...)

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Dr. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Prize winning physicist

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." - James Madison, 1803

The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes.... The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession -- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.... There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain. - Mark Twain

"Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes" - Isaac Asimov

Obsidian, like I said, hypocracy, they say Thou Shalt Not Kill as an excuse not to do abortions, then they support/go out and kill people.

Pro-Lifers make no sense...... at least pro-choice makes sense. "Not our right to tell them what they can and can't do with your body, it is your choice." And stillllllllllllllll no ministers shot, churches blown up, nothing. It all one sided, like a demostration of black rights in the 60's, the bible belt beats them, kills them, they just sit there and be peaceful and hope that what they do will bring their children freedom of tyranny of the south/bible belt, the right to vote, the right to marry outside of race, to be more then the second class citizens the ministers told them they were accordsing to the bible......

www.childdevelopmentinfo.com...

I'm sure you all can find other links to prenatal development. Their own heart and blood in the first month. Develop sexual organs by month two. Does this sound like they are not alive? Some countries count age by time of coneption, not birth.

Now as for the violent pro-lifers. A Toyota Camry is a car, but is every car a Toyota Camry? I used to march in pro-life marches with my parents when I was younger. I don't recall anyone in my group harming anyone. Are these people wrong for their violent acts? I don't know, maybe they feel that they owe the innocent children something. And don't go on with some kind of argument about how the children are unwanted. That's not their fault, but they still deserve to live and attempt to become someone. Who knows, they may become the next sob story of how someone grew up with bad parents in a bad neighborhood, yet became the scientist that cures diabetes. Someone may have already aborted the person with the cure to cancer.

Originally posted by obsidian468
I find it amusing that all of the Christians on here are shouting about "Thou shall not kill"

"all of the Christians" hmmm. If you look back at my posts, it should be obvious that I am a Christian, yet the whole point of several of them is that the commandment is "Thou shall not MURDER", not "Thou shall not kill". It would be wise to avoid such obviously ignorant/false statements.

P.S.--A bunch of quotes doesn't make an idea correct.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Obsidian, like I said, hypocracy, they say Thou Shalt Not Kill as an excuse not to do abortions, then they support/go out and kill people.

Again, most or at least many pro-lifers do not "support/go out and kill people."
You would not appear so ignorant/foolish if you avoided such sweeping and obviously false statements

It all one sided, like a demostration of black rights in the 60's, the bible belt beats them, kills them, they just sit there and be peaceful and hope that what they do will bring their children freedom of tyranny of the south/bible belt, the right to vote, the right to marry outside of race, to be more then the second class citizens the ministers told them they were accordsing to the bible......

Again, just because someone says they are Christian doesn't mean they understand/follow Biblical teachings.




[edit on 23/2/05 by Biegacz]

this thread has degenerated from useful intellectual discussion in rantings by the religious vs non-religious.

Obviously nothing will shed light on this problem of pro-life volence if the groups who are responsible don't have the balls to step up to the plate and admit that thier religions foster radical nutbags just like ALL religions do.

Who cares what the damn bible says, it is outdated fables, a work whos intrinsic value would be better served within a museum of failed religions.

Originally posted by Biegacz
yet the whole point of several of them is that the commandment is "Thou shall not MURDER", not "Thou shall not kill". It would be wise to avoid such obviously ignorant/false statements.

I just got done stating this on the God says kill thread, but think it's equally applicable:

Here's the difference. You can kill someone accidently. Otherwise it looks like the same word to me.

We always try to pin killing on God, as if it's His fault for all deaths or 'making us this way'. Truth is, if you look at the number that God actually killed vs. how many deaths we've decided to inflict on our own, I'm use you'd be surprised at the percentage. Stand accused humanity, we've made the decision to do 99%+ of the killing! God says don't do it, yet we do. Whether it be the 6th commandment (Exodus 20:13), all the woes of killing in the Old Testament, Jesus saying love your enemies (Matthew 5:43), the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:34), or the apostles talking about love to the church (1 Corinthians 13), the act of killing is WRONG! Make all the human reasonings and justifications all you want, the fact is we have the tendency to make the Word fit our life, not our life to fit the Word as it is written and should be.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 24-2-2005 by saint4God]

Either you have freedom of choice and legal abortions where the women invovled survives or you have illegal abortions, where desperate women turn to backstreet abortionists with a bottle of whiskey and a coathanger.

Given the choice between the two, what would people prefer?

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Either you have freedom of choice and legal abortions where the women invovled survives or you have illegal abortions, where desperate women turn to backstreet abortionists with a bottle of whiskey and a coathanger.

Given the choice between the two, what would people prefer?

And it's illegal to murder, yet people do it, maybe we should make it legal.

Originally posted by steggyD
And it's illegal to murder, yet people do it, maybe we should make it legal.

Thats just an unproductive knee-jerk answer. You can't make comparisons between someone shooting someone in cold blood and a woman/girl faced with bringing a child she can't provide for into the world. Something that is considered 'murder' by the law usually assumes malice of intent behind it [eg bombing clinics]. It makes it easy for some pro-lifers to assume that the motive for abortions is malice.. [hence the political luxury of calling it 'murder'] when in reality there would be many reasons [dependent on the individual- eg. rape, incest, immaturity, poverty and homelessness, drug abuse, domestic abuse, mental illness, medical complications etc. etc] that have nothing to do with malice but simply that a woman/girl feels it is the only option. Why would she feel it is the only option? Because our culture is f# up and gives very little tangible and moral support for women who are faced with unwanted pregnancies. Oh thats right- they shouldn't have had sex in the first place so deserve to be punnished. Of course teaching them how to use contraception reliably is out of the question- seems women not having sex is a higher priority than her having to terminate a pregnancy.
Christian sex ed:
Repeat after me:
"Sex is bad"/"Go forth and multiply in the sanctity of marriage but be sure you derive no enjoyment from it."
I'm comfounded at the number of 'good christians' who judge women who have abortions and then still have the audacity to judge single mothers. Rock and a hard place.. no wonder society is the way it is. If prolifers want women to not have abortions- perhaps they should get off there high horses and see how the world really funtions.. and while they're at it actually put their money where their mouths are and adopt a 'saved baby' or two.

At least a couple of christians here condemned prolife terrorists [a couple].

ok- rant finnished.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by riley]

For one thing, I am no Christian. Yet, I still believe that it is murder. It is definitely malice, especially when it comes down to a person's own greed. I did not say that birth control is wrong. I got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, we had twins. I was 20. We married, I went through 4 years of the Marine Corps, worked afterwards, and am now in college. It takes work, but you can make anything work out if you try harder. The answer is not to just simply kill people off because you can't deal with them.

My response may hurt some people's feelings, but I'm putting it bluntly. You cannot justify taking the life of an unborn child in my eyes. And maybe you must go back a couple posts and read my link about prenatal development before you go telling me that they are not alive.

Originally posted by steggyD
I got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, we had twins. I was 20. We married, I went through 4 years of the Marine Corps, worked afterwards, and am now in college. It takes work, but you can make anything work out if you try harder. The answer is not to just simply kill people off because you can't deal with them.

Excellent testimony steddyD, thank you for keeping it real.

so saint4god, by keeping it real, it means you have to agree with what you have to say?

I thought what Riley said was just as intellectual. Well written, concise, and he presented his arguments.

Thanks for keeping it more real than real Riley.
So stupid

What's this about 'murder'? Do you guys think euthanization is murder? How about stepping on an ant, is this murder? A cat? A dog? Does a fetus have feelings? Does an ant have rights? Does a dog? When speaking about murder, we usually use the term when talking about something significant. I dont understand how you guys see a fetus significant enough to outlaw abortions. I can see how you might find yours significant, but not significant enough to make other couples choices for them. Why are you so adamant about controlling others peoples decisions? Im not pro-abortion. Other than life risking reasons, I think its irresponsible (birth-control purposes), but why should I tell them what to do with their bodies? How is that my choice? What say you?

Originally posted by steggyD
For one thing, I am no Christian. Yet, I still believe that it is murder. It is definitely malice, especially when it comes down to a person's own greed. I did not say that birth control is wrong. I got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, we had twins. I was 20. We married, I went through 4 years of the Marine Corps, worked afterwards, and am now in college. It takes work, but you can make anything work out if you try harder. The answer is not to just simply kill people off because you can't deal with them.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
...Does a fetus have feelings? ... I dont understand how you guys see a fetus significant enough to outlaw abortions...

quoted from ChildDevelopment.com website
The embryonic period occurs 2 to 8 weeks after conception. During this period the rate of cell differentiation intensifies, with support systems and organs beginning to form. The zygote now forms another 2 layers of cells and is then called an embryo. The embryo's new inner layer of cells, the endoderm, later develops into the digestive and respiratory systems. The outer layer is then further divided into 2: the ectoderm and the mesoderm. The ectoderm later becomes the nervous system and sensory receptors (ears, nose, and eyes, for example) and skin parts (hair and nails, for example). The mesoderm later becomes the circulatory system, bones, muscles, excretory system, and reproductive system. Every body part eventually develops from these 3 layers.

I think if the fetus has a nervous system, he/she is more than likely going to feel things. Plus, the fetus is developing his/her own heart beat in the second month. That makes the fetus his or her own person, and I just don't see how anyone has the right to terminate.

Besides, this is getting off the point of the thread. The poster wants to know about violent pro-lifers, and I as I said before. Not every pro-lifer is going to blow up a clinic, and from what I noticed, the thread starter here seems to have some sort of vendetta against Christians. Maybe a bad experience with Christians? I don't know, but I will tell you one thing, there's a higher percentage of pro-lifers that will not kill someone for performing abortions than those that will.

I can say why do so many people that don't go to church at all end up in prison for murder. But, hey, what does not going to church have to do with those people? And once more, I am not a Christian, but I seem to be one of their biggest allies very often. The actual religion is very peaceful and helpful, yet people tend to lean towards greed and evil. Do not blame the religion on what people who may or may not be Christian do.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by steggyD]

Originally posted by Biegacz
"all of the Christians" hmmm. If you look back at my posts, it should be obvious that I am a Christian, yet the whole point of several of them is that the commandment is "Thou shall not MURDER", not "Thou shall not kill". It would be wise to avoid such obviously ignorant/false statements.

Okay, looking at it as "Thou shalt not murder" (The bible clearly states the commandment reading as "Thou shalt not kill" - just to alleviate any ignorance you might have), Is it not murder to kill a doctor just because he performs an abortion? Is it not murder to kill a clinic full of people just because abortions happen there (many of the people being the pregnant women who this thread so vehemently suggests are 'murderers' because they wish to have an abortion)? Were the Crusades not murder? Was Salem not murder? Was Kosovo not murder? Was Hitler not a murderer? All of these deaths are in the name of Christianity. Murder, death.... it's all semantics in terms of the dead. Either way, it proves pro-life Christians to be hypocrites.

Originally posted by jawapunk
so saint4god, by keeping it real, it means you have to agree with what you have to say?

I meant we get so wrapped up in the philosophy of all of this we lose touch of what really occurs in our lives. We all have decisions to make and it's good to see some who take the hard road to yield the best outcome. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.