Pro_Life Violence

Originally posted by obsidian468
Okay, looking at it as "Thou shalt not murder" (The bible clearly states the commandment reading as "Thou shalt not kill" - just to alleviate any ignorance you might have),

It sounds like this would be a thread in and of itself, but I agree with you.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Is it not murder to kill a doctor just because he performs an abortion?

It is murder.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Is it not murder to kill a clinic full of people just because abortions happen there (many of the people being the pregnant women who this thread so vehemently suggests are 'murderers' because they wish to have an abortion)?

It is murder.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Were the Crusades not murder?

They were murder.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Was Salem not murder?

Salem witch and non-witch persecutions were murder.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Was Kosovo not murder?

Kosovo was murder

Originally posted by obsidian468
Was Hitler not a murderer?

Hitler was a murderer.

Originally posted by obsidian468
All of these deaths are in the name of Christianity.

Both the persecution of Christians and the persecution of non-Christians were murder.

Originally posted by obsidian468
Murder, death.... it's all semantics in terms of the dead. Either way, it proves pro-life Christians to be hypocrites.

This should not be according to scripture

I think you've hit on a very important point, but think your last sentence is a hasty generalization. One would have to know every Christian to get the percentage. I think you're right-on with some people thinking/saying, "Because I don't know you, it's okay if I kill you". Either way, one can ask God and read the Book to get the answer.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by steggyD
I still believe that it is murder.

'Murder:
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.'

It is definitely malice,

'Malice:
A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.'

I already gave some hypathetical reasons why a women might terminate a pregnancy.. none of them would suggest malice as intent. That assumption only shows your own ignorance of women's issues.

especially when it comes down to a person's own greed.

And the examples I gave would suggest only desperation.. not greed.

I did not say that birth control is wrong.

The prolife movement condemns birth control.. it was a general answer.

I got a girl pregnant outside of marriage, we had twins. I was 20. We married, I went through 4 years of the Marine Corps, worked afterwards, and am now in college. It takes work, but you can make anything work out if you try harder.

Yes but many men leave women in the lurch.. and sometimes even their families will turn their backs. I respect the fact that your stood by her.. it is very admirable but if this were a cultural expection of men [and it's not] it would probably decrease the abortion numbers.

And maybe you must go back a couple posts and read my link about prenatal development before you go telling me that they are not alive.

I am not ignorant of what occurs during gestation.. I actually think it is a very beautiful thing- but it does not negate the fact that it is in someone else's body and that they are the ones that must decide if they are capable of providing for them. I also had stated earlier that I do think it's alive.. but it is still just a fetus.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by riley]

as to why people get abortions. I think this is important for anyone and may help tone down the anger a bit on both sides by creating some understanding first.

I'd picked it up off of this site which seems to have an extensive bibliography:
www.agi-usa.org...

(1) Wants to postpone childbearing
(2) Wants no (more) children
(3) Socioeconomic factors
(4) Relationship problem; partner does not want the pregnancy
(5) Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
(6) Risk to maternal or fetal health
(7) Other

Married
United States, 1987–1988
(1) 25.9% (2) 25.6% (3) 26.7% (4) 7.4% (5) 0.2% (6) 13.4% (7) 0.9%

Unmarried
United States, 1987–1988
(1) 25.4% (2) 4.9% (3) 32.8% (4) 15.2% (5) 14.5% (6) 4.8% (7) 2.4%

Can we help these reasons for aborting in another way? Now there is a puzzle worth solving.

Boy, you gotta love how the pro-lifers sidestep the evidence of pro-life violence.

I assume that anyone with eyes or ears KNOWS that some pro-lifers do these things. Why keep talking about the issue of abortion, something that is ambiguous on the concept of murder, when we can talk about pro-life violence, which in some instances can be actually considered murder???

Originally posted by truthseeka
Boy, you gotta love how the pro-lifers sidestep the evidence of pro-life violence.

I assume that anyone with eyes or ears KNOWS that some pro-lifers do these things. Why keep talking about the issue of abortion, something that is ambiguous on the concept of murder, when we can talk about pro-life violence, which in some instances can be actually considered murder???

I've already stated my views, but it seems to go unnoticed. For the last time, every pro-lifer is not violent. There are more pro-lifers marching peacefully (or not even marching at all) than there are those that kill in the name of pro-life. When I say more, I don't mean just a few more, I mean like 99.999% more. The way you all post it, it sounds like every person who takes a pro-life stance is bound to blow up a clinic. Well, here's some news, I have no explosives.

So, stop assuming that because some people do this, it does not mean that everyone who has a pro-life position condones this behavior.

THE END.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by steggyD]

You know why pro-lifers can have a march? Pro-Choice people won't boycott it or attack it. But no pro-choice marches, and you knwo why? Because they are afraid of the pro-lifers, the people who shoot, kill, blow up, and murder people, that would come and kill them.

I am STILL searching google for ministers, churches, so forth, killed/burned/blown up by pro-choicers, none found.......

Originally posted by James the Lesser
You know why pro-lifers can have a march? Pro-Choice people won't boycott it or attack it. But no pro-choice marches, and you knwo why? Because they are afraid of the pro-lifers, the people who shoot, kill, blow up, and murder people, that would come and kill them.

I am STILL searching google for ministers, churches, so forth, killed/burned/blown up by pro-choicers, none found.......

Uhh, sorry, but I have seen opposition marches when I attended pro-life marches. If the marches are fewer now, maybe it's because they don't feel as strongly about it as the ones who are trying to save lives. And your last line, I'm sure I can find an instance of where someone related to an abortion in one way or another has caused an act of violence. But that's useless, because you still tend to ignore what I say. Not every person who believes in pro-life believes in violent answers.

I can say that people who have killed someone by their vehicle when they were under the influence of alcohol were more than likely at a bar beforehand. Thus, my conclusion is that all bars are evil and they should be banned because they cause deaths everytime they are open. Do you get my point yet? I can't seem to find a link to your brain.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
You know why pro-lifers can have a march? Pro-Choice people won't boycott it or attack it. But no pro-choice marches, and you knwo why? Because they are afraid of the pro-lifers, the people who shoot, kill, blow up, and murder people, that would come and kill them.

I am STILL searching google for ministers, churches, so forth, killed/burned/blown up by pro-choicers, none found.......

Try actual data there bunnyboy.......

Abortion Provider Violence Statistics:

7 Murders
17 Attempted Murders
41 Bombings
168 Arsons
82 Attempted Bombings/Arsons
373 Invasions
1048 Incidences of Vandalism
591 Incidences of Trespassing
125 Incidences of Assault and Battery
357 Death Threats
3 Kidnappings
76 Incidences of Burglary

womensissues.about.com...

Compair that to the 42 million babies murdered in the US alone since 1973.

Originally posted by saint4God
as to why people get abortions. I think this is important for anyone and may help tone down the anger a bit on both sides by creating some understanding first.

Common sense prevails.
Unfortuantly I doubt the more extreme, self righteous prolifers will be interested in understanding.. that would mean feeling actual compassion and sympathy for the women which would mean they wouldn't get off on shouting 'murderer' [oh and slut] anymore.

Can we help these reasons for aborting in another way? Now there is a puzzle worth solving.

It's definently worth solving.. but the fact that the pro-life groups refuse to promote contraception means they are in fact contributing to abortions through innaction and misinformation.. which of course makes me think they are more interested in policing womens' sexuality and not saving 'babies'.
If they used the time to teach and fund sex ed programes [facts not Bush fiction] instead of just protesting they'd actually make a difference.. but the churches themselves would have to change and make some concessions itself on condoms/the pill etc. before making some real headway.. that won't happen for another ten years though.

Of course there's more to it than just contraception- our culture has to change but thats another thread and I'm not sure where to start.

[edit on 26-2-2005 by riley]

Originally posted by jawapunk
Thanks for keeping it more real than real Riley.

no probs.

Originally posted by riley
Unfortuantly I doubt the more extreme, self righteous prolifers will be interested in understanding.. that would mean feeling actual compassion and sympathy for the women which would mean they wouldn't get off on shouting 'murderer' [oh and slut] anymore.
[edit on 26-2-2005 by riley]

Alright, I'm not changing sides here, but to defend the pro-choicers and those women who may be getting abortions and threats by pro-lifers, here is a verse from the Bible. I think some Christians need to remember this verse. As I said before, Christianity is not a bad religion when you look at how it is supposed to be, it's just that people make it look bad.

Anyways, here's John chapter 8 vs 1-11:

1 while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 But early in the morning he arrived again in the temple area, and all the people started coming to him, and he sat down and taught them.
3 Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle.
4 They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery.
5 Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?"
6 They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger.
7 But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again he bent down and wrote on the ground.
9 And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him.
10 Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11 She replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more."

Anyways, here's John chapter 8 vs 1-11:

Totally the best argument yet against pro-life violence.

I guess I'm pro-child, pro-mother, and anti-violence. Boy that's a mouth full...but I guess being specific is needed these days.

Thanks riley for the vote of support.

I was surprised to see the percent of abortions were because parents (15%)/spouse (7%) told them to do it or else! Now if you're looking for an infraction on women's rights, there you go! They're not even giving her a choice.


[edit on 26-2-2005 by saint4God]

I guess you can't read, steggyD. I said SOME pro-lifers, not ALL.

And how can you compare drunk driving accidents to pro-life acts of violence? Someone who gets loaded and kills someone else in a wreck is wrong, no doubt. But, they didn't mean to. You make it seem like drunk drivers ram into other drivers intentionally.

On the other hand, the violent pro-lifers DELIBERATELY attack, maim, kill, etc. other people. They have to plan out their attacks beforehand, something that implies their intent to do harm. Drunk drivers don't imagine what car they're going to run into after leaving a bar. Ridiculous analogy.

Wait, using the bible to, well, not defend abortion but to show pro-lifers who kill for what they are? Heathen....(kidding, just that every other pro-lifer posted verses that they say means that they have to kill everyone who isn't a slave to them)

SteggyD, wait till next month, you are definatly getting a WATS(not just from me) if you keep posting things like this. I mean, using the bible to make killing real people already born wrong, who would have thought of it? oh wait, the people who wrote it!

Ok, eye for eye, they abort a fetus, you have to kill everything in a 10 mile radius. Just remember though, "If you do an eye for and eye, the whole world will be blind." CSI Warrick Brown.(At least that where I heard it, probably older then that)

[edit on 26-2-2005 by James the Lesser]

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Wait, using the bible to, well, not defend abortion but to show pro-lifers who kill for what they are? Heathen....(kidding, just that every other pro-lifer posted verses that they say means that they have to kill everyone who isn't a slave to them)

SteggyD, wait till next month, you are definatly getting a WATS(not just from me) if you keep posting things like this. I mean, using the bible to make killing real people already born wrong, who would have thought of it? oh wait, the people who wrote it!

Ok, eye for eye, they abort a fetus, you have to kill everything in a 10 mile radius. Just remember though, "If you do an eye for and eye, the whole world will be blind." CSI Warrick Brown.(At least that where I heard it, probably older then that)

[edit on 26-2-2005 by James the Lesser]

Well, that's what I have been trying to say. If a Christian takes time for meditations and reads the scripture and follows the teachings of Jesus, then this Christian is not going to go out and do violent things. People can be very mean, Christians, atheists, Jews, anybody. But if you look at everything that Jesus says according to the Bible and follow it, then you would be one peaceful person. It almost makes Jesus seem not too human. Which then leads to the debate of whether he existed at all or was really the son of God. But that's not for this thread to debate. So I will say, if anyone who reads this and is Christian, then please read the story of Jesus a little more and take time to meditate and reflect on your past actions. I do this stuff and I don't even consider myself a Christian.

Enough already, I'm taking the wife out to a good dinner, because the kids are with their grandmother right now, yay!

And all pro-choicers should be forced to kill their unborn children so that their seed shall die and then all other children will have the right to live. OK there terapin, pretty nasty and not so humorous thread. So, tell me, where is this verse in Deuteronomy that is pro-choice? Please tell me it's not chapter 30, because God says, "Now choose life."

But what he forgot is that it is pro-CHOICE! He wouldn't have to kill all the kids or whatever, unless he wanted to. There is a dif. between pro-choice and pro-abortion. Many are pro-choice, but not pro-abortion, just that they realize that it is better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

Better safe then sorry........ Better to have and not need then need and not have........ you get the point. And as said, making something illegal doesn't make it stop, if anything it happens more. Hell, if you even whisper about a gun ban of a certain gun that gun will ave more sales in the following week then it has had every year of it's existence. Happens everytime, gun ban? Gun sales highest ever. Hell, some gun store owners said they hope Bush implements the assault weapon ban again so people will come and buy them before the ban sets in place.

So, make drugs illegal, more done now, drinking illegal, it sold more alchohol then even the Bud Frogs and Wazzup combined did.

So, I guess we should legalize everything since people do things that are illegal anyway. On the other hand, I don't think that the federal government has any right to make it legal or illegal. I honestly believe that it should be up to the states to decide. Then I feel that every state should get some doctors, biologists, scientists and whoever else and decide at what point this fetus is no longer just a fetus, but a living feeling human being. Then there should be no abortions allowed after this point.

I think they already did that, 4-5months is when it changes from something that is a parasite to a living being, that if needed could live outside the womb. And of course those abortions are illegal unless something critical comes up.(it is gonna kill the woman, things like that)

Its human when it is concieved, sperm meets egg, sorry, but it is human. It may not look like it, it may not live if outside the womb till later, but is still a human. pro-choice people are murderers of millions of children. The bible speaks of eye for an eye, so we should be killing 40 million of your children. After all, they aren't full grown humans, they should all be killed.

What if Einstein was aborted? Well, sure he was a jew, but not his fault, he was raised by jews, all he knew. SO, what if the Pope was aborted?