Pro_Life Violence

Ok Skadi, how you put it is exactly how it is, a 3 month old fetus is not human, unless you consider sperm human.....which it isn't.

Anyways, like Jesta asked, proof of thi s murder version, you seem to be the only one to have this version.

I simply do not see any scientific solid evidence showing a 3 month old cluster of cells is fully human. Its not.

i do oppose very late term abortions unless there is a threat to the mother. i think by about the 3rd month, if you havent decided to abort the thing, it should not be allowed. By then, the thing becomes more developed and can be called human. By this time, its capable of moving, and after the 4th month, it begins to wake and sleep. before this however, its little more than a cluster of forming cells and very rudimentary organs. Even earthworms have more devloped hearts, lungs, and nerves than a 3 month and minus fetus.

I use this timeline because the first 3 months are when a miscarriasge is more likely. The body during this period will decide if the fetus is a foreign intruder to be expelled, or something acceptable. I think nature says it best.

Thus, if mother nature naturally expels a cluster of cells, blood, mucous, and tissue, aborting it manually is not much different.

Since the religous right and pro life lobby does not have hard science on its side, it resorts to myths and superstitions and quasi science to try and force thier irrational opinions on people who dont want them.

here is a picture of a "human" at conception.

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_0.xml

Doesnt look very human to me. Thus, morning after pills are not murder.

Heres month one.

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_1.xml

Again, dont look very human to me. Looks like a lump of flesh. Nothing more. Nothing less. Abortion at this stage is not murder. there is no human here, only potential human.

Month 2:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_2.xml

Still dont look human, and it still hasnt developed into anything closely human. Looks like a sea monkey. Again, I see no murder here.

Well look at month three:


ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_3.xml

Still not developed enough to be human. Still in potential stage. And the last stage where abortion is legal. Its organs are very very rudimentary and still not developed enough where the fetus is capable of even the most primitiuve twitch or nerve response.

After three months, however, it starts to move and kick on its own. Thus its passed from potential human to becoming more alive.

Month 4:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_4.xml

NOW I see a human. Now it has devloped enough where it does have nerves, a brain, and basic reflex and nerve function. This is the time when the little sucker kicks and starrs waking and sleeping. It can now be called into question if it is indeed a human being, theres a case for it.

Month 5:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_5.xml

Now it has hair and eye;lashes. And it can also survive outside of the womb if given an incubator. Now its a baby. NOW abortion would be murder, unless the mothers health is at stake, or there is some terrible defect with the kid that will basically ruin it or cause its very early death.

Month 6:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_6.xml

Now i see a little ankle bitting runt who can survive outside his mama. Now hes a human just bidding his time and mooching off mama till birthday. But hes a baby now. A person. No longer a potential person.

Month 7:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_7.xml
Now the kids eyelids can open. His pupils respond to life.

Hes human.

Month 8:

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_8.xml

Now I see a baby. Little different from the full terms ones in hospital incubators.

ww4.americanbaby.com.../templatedata/ab/category/data/fetaldev_9.xml

And now we see the little tax deduction has become a legal person.

But as we see during the first 3 months of pregnancy, the fetus, which cannot even survive outside his mama, cant be called a human being by logic, and only by the most irrational stretch of the imagination can one say removing it is killing a human. I see no human there, just a cluster of cells on its way to becoming a human. A rudimentary organism whose basic functions are less developed than most insects.

So again, I do not see first term abortions, when most voluntary abortions are performed, as murder. Show me a human in there. I dont see it anymore than i see a human in a wad of semen left behind at the Lusty lady theater.

Skadi, I am having nightmares tonight, the pictures of early fetus are just, mind boggling, that people kill humans over this? WTF? People shoot husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, patients, children(guess what happens when you shoot a childrens hospital up? You kill kids... maybe pro-lifers should think before they kill) over that? Well hell, like I said before, people I talked to said they don't perform after week 7 at latest week 8, after that you have to go somewhere else to get one done.

So, killing humansvsthat? I think pro-lifers are again, wrong. Also, looking at pro-life sites, they never say pro-choice, they always say pro-abortion, or pro-babykilling. But pro-choice is pro-choice, the woman has a choice, like me, I don't agree with abortion, but think a woman should have the choice. I swear, reading the Army of God site you would think they abort the slime to drink it and gain powers from satan, strange.

it really is amazing James. These people that kill over a clump of tissue still growing are probably the same people who fork over a couple hundred bucks for a slice of miracle Jesus toast on Ebay.

And youre right, its pro choice. it means, that every woman has the right to choose. She has the right to choose to have her child, even if she is not ready. She also has the choice to end the pregnancy before an unwanted life is brought into being. But its her choice to decide before the cluster of cells becomes a human.

I refer to prolifers myself as pro sadists, really. Thier logic is one of sadism, suffering, and torture. They wish to force women to be burdened with unwanted and unloved children, who will soend their lives in neglect, abuse and misery. Yet they also want to cut off public funding to help feed, clothe,house, and educate these unwanted children. And then, when these kids grow up to be brutal, cold blooded criminals, they waqnt to kill them.

All of this pain in suffering because they value a developing cell cluster not yet human over the basic dignity and humanity of the humans already here. Perhaps they want these unwanted kids to be born so they can thumb their noses down on them and feel more superior. They certainly feel superior to the dregs of society, people whyo more often than not were products of unwanted pregnancies.

They arent pro life. They are pro pain, suffering, and degradation.

Originally posted by jawapunk and supported by: fskebles

shut up with the bible talk, this is supposed to be a discussion of abortion violence, not god's laws, go find a religious forum, not all of us here believe or care to believe the crap you two are spitting at each other.

This is actually quite funny, This topic is in the religious forum. If you do not like to discuss religion, wouldn't it make sense to avoid the religious forum?

Above Top Secret 4.0 » Conspiracies in Religions » Pro_Life Violence

I see how that can be confusing for those with the intellect of a doorknob... but how can you justify this lapse in recognition?

Originally posted by Odd
I agree with LadyV.

Whoever said a fetus is no more than pond scum... you make me sick.

And to all you pro-baby-killing folk... may your wives be barren and your next dozen incarnations be slain in the womb. I wholeheartedly and sincerely curse every one of you

those kinds of statements are very inflammatory............to wish a woman to be BARREN and CURSE each of them???? if THAT isn't flameworthy i don't know what is

just because someone does NOT agree with your opinion does NOT mean its ok to spew venom at them. that is not nice and not the way to win ANYONE over to your side of an arguement............and attacking board members is DEFINITELY a NO NO out here.


angie

lets try to get back on subject now, and off of the insults, all around.

Here's my question, as stated before, theres a large ammount of Pro-life terrorists blowing up abortion clinics and hospitals, killing alot of people too. Are these actions justified? Do these actions not make the Pro-lifers that do this hypocrits?

Originally posted by WolfofWar
lets try to get back on subject now, and off of the insults, all around.

Here's my question, as stated before, theres a large ammount of Pro-life terrorists blowing up abortion clinics and hospitals, killing alot of people too. Are these actions justified? Do these actions not make the Pro-lifers that do this hypocrits?

Heres your situation... you heathen choicers chose to stand p for the legal murder of late term abortions and now the battle has taken a new face and let it be known Bush will populate the justice system with Like minded ideologs and you will be closer to a theocracy then ever before. Liberals have pushed to far and now conscientious christians will fight back. This is brought about by the liberal view that they do not have to compromise, just insult and demand, Abortion will be changed. Liberalism has been denied.

Late 2nd trimester babies' can survive outside the womb. Those same babies are being killed daily. 1.5 million babies are killed every year. Rarely is an abortion carried out in hospitals, but are carried out in Abortion Mills. Nobody is fighting for the rights of a baby at 5.5 months gestation. Please explain how an aborted "non human" survived and is 14 years old.

Heres more survivors.. members.tripod.com...

Sorry all this is off the topic. Wolfofwar where did you get your avatar?

Might as well add my thoughts to topic. I'm pro-choice. It's up to the woman to decide and not anyone or thing. Many people don't believe in a god or religion so preaching it does no good as it just harms your religion. The actions of pro-lifers are disgraceful. You do exactly the same thing as you say that you're trying to stop. How do you get people to join your belief when you do this? What's one persons business is not your business.

i don't agree with the killing of drs and workers or the bombing of abortion centers.

i just think that its wrong. as long as abortion is legal then the people commiting these acts(killing the workers and bombing the centers) are breaking the laws that rule the land and they become criminals and are treated as such.

as of now.........whether you agree with abortion or not...........it is a protected right............and has to be treated as such.........



angie

[edit on 21-2-2005 by amb1063]

Also, aborting the fetus is murder, but shooting it or blowing it up, according to pro-lifers, isn't. How hypocritical is that? So, I could go up to a woman, shoot her 9 times in the stomach, no problem, but if she even thinks about getting within 50 feet of a hospital/clinic she is to be killed on sight? If I blow up ten pregnant women, no problem, but if she even thinks about getting an abortion then she is an evil sinner? Wow, hypocracy to the MAXX!(So max it requires to Xs)

Oh wait, they are heros according to the pro-lifers posting here.(well, 3 out of 5)

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Also, aborting the fetus is murder, but shooting it or blowing it up, according to pro-lifers, isn't. How hypocritical is that? So, I could go up to a woman, shoot her 9 times in the stomach, no problem, but if she even thinks about getting within 50 feet of a hospital/clinic she is to be killed on sight? If I blow up ten pregnant women, no problem, but if she even thinks about getting an abortion then she is an evil sinner? Wow, hypocracy to the MAXX!(So max it requires to Xs)

Oh wait, they are heros according to the pro-lifers posting here.(well, 3 out of 5)

You are in candyland! Back up your claim, that a "pro-lifer" shot a fetus, or blew one up.

You have proven 5 deaths in 3 incidents attributed to the Pro Life movement. 4 shootings, one bombing death of a security guard. Bring proof or be a liar.

Still waiting for the proof of a blown up hospital... just keep marching your gingerbreadman forward.

Originally posted by I See You
Sorry all this is off the topic. Wolfofwar where did you get your avatar?

Might as well add my thoughts to topic. I'm pro-choice. It's up to the woman to decide and not anyone or thing. Many people don't believe in a god or religion so preaching it does no good as it just harms your religion. The actions of pro-lifers are disgraceful. You do exactly the same thing as you say that you're trying to stop. How do you get people to join your belief when you do this? What's one persons business is not your business.

The avataris ripped from the teaser trailer of Episode III Revenger of the Sith.



And to Kinja, don't clump me together with your "heathens". I never said I support Abortion, or that I'm Pro-choice. I said it was a neccessary evil.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
And to Kinja, don't clump me together with your "heathens". I never said I support Abortion, or that I'm Pro-choice. I said it was a neccessary evil.

LOL Well I sure God will put you in the Almost Hell for the necessary evil doers.

Clue for you... You are Pro Choice. Not Pro Life. Also the Sky is blue, and you are reading this on the internet.

Originally posted by Kinja

Originally posted by WolfofWar
And to Kinja, don't clump me together with your "heathens". I never said I support Abortion, or that I'm Pro-choice. I said it was a neccessary evil.

LOL Well I sure God will put you in the Almost Hell for the necessary evil doers.

Clue for you... You are Pro Choice. Not Pro Life. Also the Sky is blue, and you are reading this on the internet.

My beef isn't with you or your god. I also don't advocate womans right to choose. I'm not a woman, and I believe I have no real say on what rights they should have. What I do understand is abortions are a necessary evil. They are thing that have been around since human kind existed. It's well documented in all ancient cultures aswell. The problem with making abortions illegal is that it kills more mothers. When life begins, scientifically, is arguable. Though Judeo-Christian religion states its at conception, science thats it differently. We could argue it forever, but the numbers remain. more mothers, who are without a DOUBT alive died when abortions were illegal.

Before you spout out about me living in candyland, I brought my friend, THE FACTS.

U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.
1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

Originally posted by WolfofWar
The avataris ripped from the teaser trailer of Episode III Revenger of the Sith.

I'm sorry Wolf, it's hard to read any text in your post when I'm gaping at the avatar even though it keeps looping on an on . Must...see...Starwars Ep III....must...give...mony to George Lucas @_@

Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by Kinja

Originally posted by WolfofWar
And to Kinja, don't clump me together with your "heathens". I never said I support Abortion, or that I'm Pro-choice. I said it was a neccessary evil.

LOL Well I sure God will put you in the Almost Hell for the necessary evil doers.

Clue for you... You are Pro Choice. Not Pro Life. Also the Sky is blue, and you are reading this on the internet.

My beef isn't with you or your god. I also don't advocate womans right to choose. I'm not a woman, and I believe I have no real say on what rights they should have. What I do understand is abortions are a necessary evil. They are thing that have been around since human kind existed. It's well documented in all ancient cultures aswell. The problem with making abortions illegal is that it kills more mothers. When life begins, scientifically, is arguable. Though Judeo-Christian religion states its at conception, science thats it differently. We could argue it forever, but the numbers remain. more mothers, who are without a DOUBT alive died when abortions were illegal.

Before you spout out about me living in candyland, I brought my friend, THE FACTS.

U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.
1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

Sir, I do not have any compassion for those sluts who try to murder a child and die in the process, it is Gods "choice" if they are admitted into heaven. Had these murderess' lived and repented I might feel different. I am not the one they or you need to be concerned with. God is to be answered to. Not Me. Abortion in ANY circumstance is wrong, the child is not guilty of anything. If you will not accept any excuse for murdering children in a playground with a high powered rifle, then there is not an excuse for murdering a child in the womb. I see no difference. Under what circumstance can you justify the playground situation? I can fathom none. I hope you cannot either.

So a rape victim is a slut? A 12 year old used and abused by her father is a slut? So a 14 year old(still a minor) who has sex with a 28 year old is a slut? SO women who will die if they give birth are sluts?

And again, it is a sin, evil, if a woman aborts a fetus, but if I shoot a pregnant woman or blow up a couple pregnant women it all ok? Hypocrits.

Originally posted by Kinja

Sir, I do not have any compassion for those sluts who try to murder a child and die in the process

Then you'll burn in Hell my child for not practising your faith according to Jesus and failing to asking for Gods forgiveness while doing this. Go to Church and confess your evil black thoughts to a Preist, and maybe you will be forgiven.

Phew, im so glad im not a Christian.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by paranoia]

No matter what your personal views are on this topic, this is not something to be decided by the government. The seperation of Church and State is what has allowed the US to survive and grow as it has. The choice in the matter is left to the individual. Not everyone in this country is a Christian, and not everyone believes in God. When making laws in this country, religion should have *nothing* to do with them.

I know many people who are pro life for themselves, yet pro choice for everyone else. They have a little something called RESPECT for others, and feel that others are the only ones responsible for their own choices. If someone else has an abortion, as you said, you believe they have to deal with God about it. So, get your nose out of her womb, and let God deal with it. Humans were blessed with free will. Even the Christian God states that. Telling a woman that she does not have a choice if she wants an abortion is taking away free will, and in my opinion, is a greater sin than any murder.

Each human being is free to practice whatever religion they wish, and are entitled to have any belief structure they wish. People are NOT entitled, however, to force their beliefs on ANYONE who may choose to believe differently. Therefore, there really is no debate here. You all believe differently. That's life. Deal.