America & Guns

a reply to: YouSir

Reminds me of my first wife.

I've heard your officers avoid the cultural "no go zones". If correct, how does that relate to better policing? I was an officer, in a major Texas city for 20 years. I had to draw my weapon once. Never avoided any locations - treated all as equal.

a reply to: GafferUK1981

Face it: It will be hard for you, a citizen of the UK to understand what it's like to be an American or what it is like over here.

That's okay. Really it is, because even we American's do not understand each other most times (that's how big and varied our country is).

I've lived all around the world growing up (military brat, the US Navy myself later on), and I've gotten to know different countries and cultures personally. UK is not one of them. Most of my education about the UK comes from reading the original Sherlock stories....and watching Doctor Who....so I admit, I have a rather warped idea of what the UK and it's people are like.

Which is why I don't spout off an opinion on something that is going on over there, because I know I'll be speaking from a place of ignorance.

Over here we are a nation of 3.797 MILLION square miles, with two countries physically bordering us. We cover 4 time zones. We are broken up into 50 states, with each state thinking it knows best. Have have mega cities with populations in the 10's of millions....and very small towns with a single intersection and a Stop sign, population 57.....most likely 58 if Mary has her baby, or 56 if Ol' Joe dies.

We have tropical, sub-tropical, temperate, desert and arctic climates all in our one country. We get hit with Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tornadoes and Hurricanes.

We have vast flat lands, huge mountain ranges, deserts, a multitude of different kinds of forests, and 10's of thousands of miles of beaches.

Most of us speak English.....and yet, the way we speak it over here is quite varied. Many of us who live in one place just don't get those who live in another place.

You can live in one place where there are literally no people for 10's of miles......or live somewhere where there are so many people, you can't move without bumping into them.

We are different from everyone else on the planet......but then so is everyone else. People from the UK are not the same as people from France....or Russia, or Brazil, or Japan....etc, etc, etc.

What this means is: what works for one set of people is NOT UNIVERSAL.

Remember that. Remember also: just because you may not understand something, doesn't make it wrong either.

The majority of my life has been spent living at least 30 minutes away from any emergency services, within 3 hours of the Mexican border. Mountain Lions and Coyotes are frequent, as are rattlesnakes.

I do not believe anyone from the UK really understands this aspect of the US. We aren't just a bunch of cities crammed into a small island. We are a large nation, with half of our populous living in rural areas where wildlife is plentiful and law enforcement isn't.

a reply to: Boadicea

Funny, I was going to say the same thing. I personally think that since the government wants gun control in America, they are planting these shootings to get people to get rid of our guns. We have had guns for as long as I can remember and we didn't have all of these school shootings up until after 9/11. Yeah I definitely think this is a way to get rid of guns. Nothing shocks me anymore.

originally posted by: GafferUK1981
We awoke today in Britain to the news that there has been another mass shooting in America. The question again is how does America stop these events from occurring? To me the answer is plain and simple, gun control, taking away the weapons will stop this from happening but as I skip through threads here and on facebook pages it's obvious that no matter how many of your children are massacred you will not hand over your guns.

Now before you guys start hurling insults at me let me make one thing clear. I AM NOT A LIBERAL. In Britain I am forever being accused of being far right as I am anti muslim, anti immigration and I think all this gender fluidity business is absolute nonsense, oh and if I was American I would have voted Trump.

A few months ago after a similar event I chatted to an American woman online about gun control and she left me speechless. No matter what I said to her she would not consider for a split second giving up her guns. Her first reason was I need my guns to hunt, I said okay would it be possible to keep your guns in a hunting lodge to which she responded well no I need them at home to protect myself. From what I asked, well somebody may break in through the window to rape me she responded, errr okay I replied so why don't you improve the security of your home to make it very difficult to break in. Well what if there is a power cut she answered. At this point I knew that I was wasting my time as it was clear that she had guns because she wanted to have guns, not because she needed them.

A few years ago when I was more active on ATS I read a post from a moron who went out the previous day armed and wrote about how he had restrained himself from shooting somebody on multiple occasions for such trivial reasons nobody deserved to die for. I sarcastically responded with what a hero he was and then told him what I really thought of him. It did teach me something though, this person wanted to shoot somebody, not because he was evil but because he wanted to be a hero. He was looking for a situation to unfold whereby he could end somebody's life but come out of it as a 'good guy'. When my brother and I were kids we would watch films like Rambo and Bloodsport and re-enact things we had seen on screen when we played. As we matured we stopped doing things like this and we became men. Have some Americans just never grown up? Has TV and film created a group of people who yearn to be a hero by killing others?

I see another well worn and lazy reason why Americans won't give up their guns. "It will empower the criminals". I can understand why people might think that but I don't agree with it. Surely if laws were introduced that carried long prison time just by possessing certain firearms the number of guns owned by criminals would reduce. Proper policing would reduce the numbers even further. You'd be surprised how many criminals would hand over their weapons in an amnesty. I can understand that you guys don't trust your law enforcement, they do seem very trigger happy and poorly trained. Our officers in the UK may not have guns but they are trained to a much higher level than those in America.

Another ridiculous argument that is going around today is "we need more guns". That is like trying to put a fire out with petrol (gasoline). If you arm your school teachers you have failed as a country, I'm sorry but that is a fact. Teachers are there to educate children, not kill them. Yes maybe if teachers had guns the body counts may be lower but it also creates the possibility that stressed and overworked teachers could carry out a few mass shootings of their own.

Come on America please tell this outsider looking in what it would take for you to hand over your guns or at the very least the guns that are capable of killing lots of people in one go. What if you could only own one low capacity handgun? Gun control is undoubtedly the answer to your problem. What has to happen before you embrace it?

Thats ridiculous. One can plow down people with a truck in Paris...take away all the cars and trucks in the world. Oh..and the kitchen knives from every house in the world. Oh..and fertilizer cause its bomb making material..and clear bleach in a water bottle a 12 yr old carries into a school to poison classmates. And baseball bats and golf clubs...any and everything can be a weapon.

What we need is MORE people like myself...law abiding-will-defend-you-your neighbors-your kids-family concealed carriers...and teachers...who wouldve stopped this nut after the 1st or 2nd shot, ultimately saving dozens from death or injury.

We armed ourselves in the 1700's to the call of "The British are coming" (with guns)...In the American revolution...we kept guns because the BRITISH brought theirs to contain us from revolt...and we created a constitution to allow law-abiding Americans to defend ourselves and others....

Guns, knives, swords, bombs, alcohol, frying pans, trucks, gasoline...dont kill people. People kill people. Its the VIOLENCE thats the issue...not the means.

I'd rather have my hands on my trigger in an immediate life-or-death situation...than a telephone to wait for the police...who will find me DEAD by the time they get to me....

M.S.
Licensed Concealed Daily Carrier*

*There should be a HEAVY restriction on assault type weapons. My 45 Caliber and 9mm are NOT assault weapons.

a reply to: Indrasweb

Your food is fine??? The Germans should have bombed you guys with cookbooks.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Amen on that one brother, I have a 100 walk to the mail box. Woods behind and beside my home on three sides. To put it like the locals, I live out in the sticks....away from the other humans.

a reply to: GafferUK1981

Come and get them Brit, maybe you’ll get further than your forefathers.

originally posted by: GafferUK1981

A few months ago after a similar event I chatted to an American woman online about gun control and she left me speechless. No matter what I said to her she would not consider for a split second giving up her guns. Her first reason was I need my guns to hunt,

Perfectly logical reason to own a firearm.

I said okay would it be possible to keep your guns in a hunting lodge to which she responded well no I need them at home to protect myself.

Perfectly logical reason to own a firearm and not keep them stored somewhere else.

From what I asked, well somebody may break in through the window to rape me she responded,

Perfectly logical reason to own a firearm, and something that happens more often than you are probably willing to research and admit to.

... errr okay I replied so why don't you improve the security of your home to make it very difficult to break in. Well what if there is a power cut she answered. At this point I knew that I was wasting my time as it was clear that she had guns because she wanted to have guns, not because she needed them.

I would argue that, at this point, she was wasting her time.

See, it's all about perspective. What you are doing is approaching this claimed discussion with the preconceived notion that handing the power of personal security over to others is a perfectly acceptable solution. Want to hunt? Let the "hunting lodge" keep your rifle for you. Want to protect yourself in case of home invasion? Rely on an alarm company to scare away the intruder or contact the police on your behalf--I mean, they always show up just in the nick of time, right?

See, here in America, it's absolutely, 100% okay for citizens to have guns just because we want them. I have guns because I want them--an every-day carry pistol, a shotgun, and a .270 hunting rifle (I sold my AR-15 when I moved, but will be replacing it soon). I also train in self-defense martial arts, train specifically in using and fighting against bladed weapons and firearms, and have a security camera system set up around my house with four cameras.

Can you fathom for one second they "why" behind all of this? It's a pretty simple answer, and it's not "paranoia"...

Because I'd rather be prepared in the small, improbable possibility that I or my family will ever be in a life-threatening situation where there is no one else to help us when it truly matters.

It does no harm--NONE--having my long guns stored in a secured gun safe in my house, or having a pistol with me when I'm traveling in public. None of my firearms have ever caused anyone else logical and realistic concern for their safety, and I have yet to have a pistol inexplicably leap out of its holster and just start firing on innocent people.

Your description of this conversation that you had--real or fake, it doesn't matter--is ridiculous because you say that the woman was the irrational one, yet she lives in a country where it's her right, for any reason that she deems fit, to own a firearm. She does not have to meet some arbitrary checklist that you create in your mind over in Britain in order to be justified in owning her weapon, and your reasoning does not supersede her concerns.

I see another well worn and lazy reason why Americans won't give up their guns. "It will empower the criminals". I can understand why people might think that but I don't agree with it. Surely if laws were introduced that carried long prison time just by possessing certain firearms the number of guns owned by criminals would reduce.

Again, you're saying that reliance on someone else to protect you is the appropriate path to take in a nation of 320-million people.

If laws mattered, murders would happen, yet here we are, and they happen every day. Do you not think that life in prison or the death penalty (in some states) should be enough of a deterrent? You being in agreement with a claim does not negate the veracity that it may or may not have.

Why do you think that criminals are rationally thinking people?

If you arm your school teachers you have failed as a country, I'm sorry but that is a fact. Teachers are there to educate children, not kill them. Yes maybe if teachers had guns the body counts may be lower but it also creates the possibility that stressed and overworked teachers could carry out a few mass shootings of their own.

Now we're full circle back to your implication that the lady that you discussed gun control with was irrational--yet, here you are, being irrational. You are using slippery-slope arguments, hypothetical thoughts, and claiming personal opinions as "fact."

Seriously, is it okay for gun-control people to use these tactics, but when they presume to see it in 2nd-Amendment advocates, suddenly they are irrational and only want guns because they like guns (which is a perfectly fine reason, btw, in a nation with the right to own firearms). I mean, can I not just turn around and say, "You just want more gun control because you dislike guns?"

Under your approach to this topic, I can, and it appears that it would be accurate, given your claims. Don't let fear replace critical thinking skills.

Here's what I see . . .

America's War in Korea . . . . fail.
America's War in Vietnam . . . fail
America's War on drugs . . . fail.
America's War on Iraq . . . fail.
America's War on Hunger . . . fail
America's War on pretty much everything . . . fail (when did the US last actually win a war on anything) . . . except . . .

Americans' war on Americans . . . seems that's the only 'winner' at this point.

I know that will cheese off a lot of folks, but the need to have guns to protect yourself from your neighbor is a concept that, as a Canadian, I just don't understand.

But, that's your choice . . . I'll just stand back in total amazement as the daily reports of you folks shooting each other come scrollin' by on my news feed.

Best of luck . . . and don't forget . . . lock and load . . . your neighbor's got a gun!!!

o me the answer is plain and simple, gun control, taking away the weapons will stop this from happening

We have it.

Schools are gun free zones.

And it didn't stop it.

OP the USA is a different culture than ours, it also has nasty beasts bigger than our deadly foe the badger to deal with plus some nasty two legged kind of beasts.
The gun and american culture has been in hand in hand since the time the dirty rotten scoundrels (joke before you all bleat about redcoats) demanded no tea tax so lets just be glad we are not over there and have to deal with guns everyday even though I go shooting.
Plus over 2 million people in the UK have firearms so we are hardly gun free.
I think robots will soon be patroling US schools just like ED-209 soon enough.

a reply to: GafferUK1981

As A fellow Brit I admire your bravery in writing this OP, please try to remain calm in the face of pro gun advocates, I have been berated in the past. I found your post to be sensible and sane but we are lucky to both live in a country which has criminals but a lot lot less access to firearms, guess what we not had a mass shooting for a looooong time, wonder why?

Are we as brits more patient than our American brothers, I doubt it, we are all just human, every nation has issues with mental health but most do not have access to firearms thrust upon them.

I will refrain from saying more as I genuinly like the USA and do not want to appear to preaching from across the pond.

As ever RIP to the many victims and I hope in my lifetime USA can do something positive about these types of crimes

Link to BBC listing of gun crimes in USA - (quite long unfortunately)BBC

I hate this damn conversation. "Guns are bad" "guns kill people"

The top 10 leading causes of death in the U.S.:

Heart disease
Cancer (malignant neoplasms)
Chronic lower respiratory disease
Accidents (unintentional injuries)
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases)
Alzheimer's disease
Diabetes
Influenza and pneumonia
Kidney disease (nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis)
Suicide

There are more deaths due to car accidents than guns. Lets also be honest here. If some wanted to cause harm there are many other ways. So ban guns. I will bet that vehicles driving through crowds will become more common. You can due a lot of damage using a hammer, kitchen knife, fork, baseball bat, screw driver, wii controllers.

Done, bye

"If you arm your school teachers you have failed as a country, I'm sorry but that is a fact."

No, that is NOT a fact. That's what big people call an OPINION.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Second time in this thread that I applaud ones words. Spot on slapmonkey.

You cannot make an informed decision about US gun ownership and control from a UK perspective. The US has mass private firearm ownership and routinely armed law enforcement . The UK has highly regulated private firearm ownership and a routinely unarmed police force. Pathological fear of other citizens and government is not the default mindset in the UK.

Well not yet anyway.

originally posted by: StreetGlide
I've heard your officers avoid the cultural "no go zones". If correct, how does that relate to better policing? I was an officer, in a major Texas city for 20 years. I had to draw my weapon once. Never avoided any locations - treated all as equal.

Come and get them Brit, maybe you’ll get further than your forefathers.

This same argument again, how many times will this go around? Back and forth, back and fourth, insults and misunderstanding each others cultures.
But why make it so personal, I mean come on, insulting our food, Forefathers and UNARMED Police, who patrol every where (when they can afford it!!)?? How low can members go??

The problem is, we Brits see mass shooting of children flash up on the TV with so many dead, and to some of us of a certain age (i was a child), we remember it happing here, and how we decided as a civilised society that we wouldn't let it happen again, and we changed how firearms would be owned and controlled.
We as Brits expect our American family across the pond, to react to this problem like we did, and that is unfair of us, firearms have been with American society since it was created, and just tossing them out is almost impossible at this point in time, and a lot of firearm owners don't want to.

But our American members must also see that we only act like this because we don't see this kind of carnage happen here with firearms any more, and some of us are left wondering how/why this happens so often. We see an NRA spokesperson say something like "This is now how American is". Both of our societies are so close it's frightening, but also so diffrent at times, it's weird and hard to comprehend, especially when we hear comments like that.
You guys can be very quick with the insults about how you needed your firearms because of us, come on, that was 200 years ago, and seems like the same old argument you guys must see when we say the "B" word straight away.

We both see our arguments as simple logic that the other side doesn't see or gets.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

Thanks.

50/50 the OP actually reads it? I re-worded that response multiple times to make it as level-headed a response as it could be. Hopefully any response is returned in the same form.