Enough is enough. Public massacres and school shootings must stop.

a reply to: Violater1

While some US citizens want to kill and injure crowds of folk i agree that more armed people is probably what you need right now.

But long term you're gonna have to really nail the reason why you have more massacres than other first world nations and fix it or keep having kids under armed guard at schools etc.

Because that aint an acceptable long term plan, it's effing nuts.

I'm foreign so my view is limited but it aint normal surely.

Are regular massacres or almost-massacres *just* a result of wide spread availability of guns mixed with gun free zones? I kinda doubt it and think it's more complex and also about the US being as much or more a business than a nation and the gazillion ways that impacts society and the mentally ill and isolated etc.

Not a bleeding chance any body in the states is going to try something different to fix this tho. The discussion is just a ritual.

a reply to: odzeandennz

How about this:

If you use a gun in the commission of a crime, automatic mandatory sentences that must be served. You at least remove the offender from society for a while.

Mandatory reporting of stolen or lost guns serial numbers required. I'm not a fan of this due to privacy issues, but gun owners must look at it as a moral issue. A gun is merely a tool, but it is a tool that can cause irreparable harm when misused.

Heavy civil or possible criminal penalties for gun owners who fail to secure their guns in a reasonable manner against theft or misuse and as a result someone is injured or killed.

Mental health reform or a better reporting based on individual assessment of each patient by at least 2 doctors who are able to properly diagnose that an individual is incapable of safely owning a firearm.

Better training on gun safety in public schools. Training on how to use them, that they're not toys, and that the consequences of misuse are serious and permanent. Demystify guns and make them less "sexy".

originally posted by: Willtell
OMG I didn’t know there were 17 dead.

This really hurts


Are we ever going to learn ?


I think not in this country

we are lost

Yes. Lets learn from our cousins across the pond shall we? Knife epidemic, acid attacks, gang rapes, grooming gangs, stabbings, vans of peace, and concert bombings, cops fleeing from a guy wielding a knife.

We could look at Sweden as well. But no, America is the absolute worst. That's why so many STILL try and come here legally and illegally.

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: Willtell
OMG I didn’t know there were 17 dead.

This really hurts


Are we ever going to learn ?


I think not in this country

we are lost

Yes. Lets learn from our cousins across the pond shall we? Knife epidemic, acid attacks, gang rapes, grooming gangs, stabbings, vans of peace, and concert bombings, cops fleeing from a guy wielding a knife.

We could look at Sweden as well. But no, America is the absolute worst. That's why so many STILL try and come here legally and illegally.

Ah so even though the general public are allowed knives ... it hasn't stopped knife crime. If only Americans could learn from this.

But no no... the answer to having easy accessibility to guns is... more guns. Everyone have a gun and then just see who wins.

America really is a laughing stock.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: odzeandennz

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: odzeandennz

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao

originally posted by: CharlesT
Just like locks on doors, laws are only for honest people. Locks don't stop burglars and more laws won't stop criminals

This, ladies and gentlemen, is precisely the notion we need to accept.

We cannot stop criminals, we can only deter them. Castle doctrines can be applied to public schools, but, like any public setting, teachers would need to hold public requirements. Excepting private schools, of course.

I don't like the idea of teachers carrying guns. I did not have good experiences with teachers at large, so yeah. I am bias.

What's keeping mass shootings from happening in China or Japan or UK or Norway or Scotland , Spain etc... They have criminals there as well correct? When was their last mass shootings?

Last mass school shooting in the UK was Dunblane. That was in 1996.

We had 18 school shooting this year so far, and I don't mean school year, I mean calendar year; we're in February still...

And instead of finding a solution we keep invoking a law or amendment passed several centuries ago to thwart a very specific threat...
Again, it's time we look at the society of yesteryear and today and think.
Men weren't allowed to be shirtless until 1938, women weren't allowed to vote, we have to adapt with the times.

I am pro gun, or gun choice. I own a rifle and a couple of Smith's, under fingerprint sensors. I used to compete.
It's time we rethink how/why/when/where guns can be acquired.

I'm British, my wife is American and I am just so glad at the moment that she's teaching in London and not in her native country. Otherwise I'd live in constant dread the entire time.
This is all a very complicated issue and I do recognise that guns are needed in the US - you have bears and mountain lions, whilst all we have are the occasional angry squirrel. But I agree that you do need to look very hard at how guns are acquired. The Second Amendment is for members of the militia, the predecessors of the National Guard, not for lunatic teenagers and others with anger management issues and manias that border insanity.
Something has to be done - but I am already wearily shaking my head in the knowledge that the political will to do anything sensible is sorely lacking. I'm travelling to the US on business in October and I'm already worrying about making my trip as short and as safe as possible.

Mass shootings in the US account for less gun deaths than gang violence. There are more acts of terrorism committed in Europe than mass shootings in the US.

Sure we can look at how the guns are acquired. But note that guns banned in Europe have still made their way in and have been used in shootings. When someone wishes to do harm, they will find a way. Evidence of that is the spike in knife crimes in Britain.

originally posted by: YeeHaw

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: Willtell
OMG I didn’t know there were 17 dead.

This really hurts


Are we ever going to learn ?


I think not in this country

we are lost

Yes. Lets learn from our cousins across the pond shall we? Knife epidemic, acid attacks, gang rapes, grooming gangs, stabbings, vans of peace, and concert bombings, cops fleeing from a guy wielding a knife.

We could look at Sweden as well. But no, America is the absolute worst. That's why so many STILL try and come here legally and illegally.

Ah so even though the general public are allowed knives ... it hasn't stopped knife crime. If only Americans could learn from this.

But no no... the answer to having easy accessibility to guns is... more guns. Everyone have a gun and then just see who wins.

America really is a laughing stock.

Look at the general disposition of the populace. Why get a knife and protect ones self, when you can trust the government to protect you.

Every time this happens we see the same 'solutions' offered up: ban assault weapons, ban guns... never any thought about the source of the problem. What if the attacker had used a shotgun instead of an AR-15? What would the death toll be then? He used a 'bad-ass' gun but the wrong one for close-quarter engagement. Why never any concern for the fact that we seem to be generating more and more mentally unhinged young people? Just about every one posts violent and foreboding messages on FB. Why no AI to root those out and alert authorities? Does everyone really think that if people like this don't have a gun they'll just stay home and read the bible? How many people could he have killed with the family car? With a propane bomb? With a machete? With a bunch of pool chemicals? There will be no hope of turning the tide on this problem until we fix the root of the problem.

originally posted by: odzeandennz
We had 18 school shooting this year so far, and I don't mean school year, I mean calendar year; we're in February still...

As I pointed out a page or so back of those 18 incidents, 10 were either an accidental discharge or a suicide on school property. Not that 8 is something to brag about however I wanted to clarify that stat with context.

originally posted by: jtma508
How many people could he have killed with the family car? With a propane bomb? With a machete? With a bunch of pool chemicals? There will be no hope of turning the tide on this problem until we fix the root of the problem.

So are you saying don't ban anything or ban everything. Is it really an all or nothing solution.

How about the fact that gun ownership cons FAR outweigh their pros. That owning a gun has been proven to increase the risk of death of your own family.


But no no, kept deflecting and worrying about cars and knives.

Item such as cars, pool chemicals and propane are considered necessary to society because of the OTHER use they serve. Guns don't have that luxury.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: odzeandennz
We had 18 school shooting this year so far, and I don't mean school year, I mean calendar year; we're in February still...

As I pointed out a page or so back of those 18 incidents, 10 were either an accidental discharge or a suicide on school property. Not that 8 is something to brag about however I wanted to clarify that stat with context.

We need to stop accidental discharges... lets give more people guns. Everyone get a gun quick and then everyone can feel like a potential hero. Or more likely an accidental killer.

originally posted by: YeeHaw

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: odzeandennz
We had 18 school shooting this year so far, and I don't mean school year, I mean calendar year; we're in February still...

As I pointed out a page or so back of those 18 incidents, 10 were either an accidental discharge or a suicide on school property. Not that 8 is something to brag about however I wanted to clarify that stat with context.

We need to stop accidental discharges... lets give more people guns. Everyone get a gun quick and then everyone can feel like a potential hero. Or more likely an accidental killer.

Better still we can ignore facts and instead act like a bunch of snowflakes who are scared of their own shadows because everyone in this world is a winner.

Now, you done with the sarcasm?

originally posted by: Painterz
Let the blood dry on the ground before politicising it eh..

OK, so how about discussing the last school shooting since it's no longer "too soon"?

'No way to prevent this!' Cries out only nation where this keeps happening regularly whilst refusing to even try and do something to prevent it.


Very disturbing seeing all these gun-humpers saying guns aren't the problem, whilst stroking their phallic symbols possessively.

The psycho-sexual aspect of gun ownership is equally fascinating and disturbing.

originally posted by: YeeHaw
So not based on fact at all. Based off your own insecurities.

No, based off of personal knowledge and firsthand accounts of LEOs I know. The fact is that criminals have admitted that they stay away from certain areas more because they fear being shot by a homeowner while committing a crime.

So how do you differentiate between your local criminals and you? Neither of you are criminals until you commit the crime.

Pretty easy. Criminals have previously been charged with or convicted of a crime. Or they have the intent to commit a crime.

I have never been charged with, convicted of, nor to I have the intent to commit a crime.

So if I get to deem whats appropriate I would kill you for owning a gun because you are considered a threat.

I sincerely doubt a judge and jury would find the killing of someone merely for owning a gun justified. It has to meet the "reasonable person" standard.

Your whole argument is why have laws preventing gun ownership if criminals won't obey them.

Criminals are criminals, you are basically saying that because Criminals seem to get away with something you'd like to as well.

Did Prohibition stop the manufacture and sale of alcohol?

Has the War on Drugs stopped the manufacture/importation/sale of illegal narcotics?

Laws are for the law-abiding. Criminals are only punished if they get caught, so they keep committing crimes and just try not to get caught.

What do you think I would "like to get away with" that criminals do?

Guns are weapons designed to kill and injure, they have no other purpose and they do not enhance the safety of you or your family by owning them.
Yet the NRA need their profit so keep buying their BS.

The other "tools" serve a purpose and thus the risk of injury/death is weighed up against the need for their purpose.

Guns are used for hunting, target shooting, and self-defense. All legitimate purposes.

I do not listen to, and have only given $25 to the NRA. And that was only because membership was required by the gun range I was a member of at the time. I don't consider the NRA a friend of the 2A.

Of course its the self-entitled Rambo American. Every single gun owning American on ATS seems to believe they are heavily trained and above everyone else. Head stuck firmly up your own ass.

Not self-entitled, nor Rambo. Just like to be proficient in the very small chance that I ever may need to use a firearm in self-defense. I do so in order to minimize risk of injury to the innocent.

Not above anyone else, just understand the inherent responsibility of carrying a gun.

Just to reiterate, conflict avoidance is highest priority. Defensive use of a gun is the very last resort.

You forsee... I don't. And since you don't mind people using any force they deem necessary for their natural rights for self-defence, you won't mind me being your neighbour and storing nuclear weapons in my basement.

Or filling my lawn with mines and bear traps. Or keeping deadly poisons and bio-hazardous materials ready for intruders.

The nuclear weapon hyperbole again...

Booby-trapping your property/home is illegal in most places due to the risk of injuring an innocent person.

Because hey! you've got weapons next door to me and I need to protect myself in case you try to kill me. Self-defence right?

Self-defense must be justifiable. A neighbor merely owning firearms and not taking action with them is not justifiable self-defense.

Its feasibly, it works. America's just to cowardly to try it.

We've discussed the topic on ATS before. It's pretty much agreed that a ban/confiscation would never happen.

Thats the point you idiot. Its easy to obtain weapons. The shoot had instagram posts littered with him showing off weapons. If it were illegal he would of been arrested. Ta da! No mass shooting today, you asked for the one law and there it is.

So basically "make all guns illegal and everything will be okay." Care to elaborate on how this would work?

F*ck your perceived rights.

The irony that you are hiding behind out-dated laws, designed for a different purpose, to stop people from creating new ones today.

Wake up and consider that the approach back then might not work now, join the rest of the world in modern thinking and practice and stop pretending you actually care about solving the problem more than losing your precious guns.


"The government of today has no right to tell us how to live our lives. Because the government of 200 years ago already did."

How pathetic.

My rights are not dependent upon someone's opinion.

My rights are not granted by or dependent upon The Constitution. The 2A is an enumeration of the existing restriction on government. Burn, shred, shoot the Constitution... it doesn't change my rights.

Make whatever laws you want banning guns. I'm keeping mine.

originally posted by: Painterz
Very disturbing seeing all these gun-humpers saying guns aren't the problem, whilst stroking their phallic symbols possessively.

The psycho-sexual aspect of gun ownership is equally fascinating and disturbing.

The only group I ever see bringing up sex, guns, and phallic comparisons/compensation are those who are opposed to gun ownership.

So... who is really more disturbed, gun owners or those who disparage them in sexual ways while making innuendos and assumptions?

originally posted by: cynicalheathen

originally posted by: Painterz
Very disturbing seeing all these gun-humpers saying guns aren't the problem, whilst stroking their phallic symbols possessively.

The psycho-sexual aspect of gun ownership is equally fascinating and disturbing.

The only group I ever see bringing up sex, guns, and phallic comparisons/compensation are those who are opposed to gun ownership.

So... who is really more disturbed, gun owners or those who disparage them in sexual ways while making innuendos and assumptions?

No, no, I think the really disturbed ones are the people like this shooter yesterday who posted all those photos of himself with his fetishised guns, fondling his guns, loving his guns. The people in this thread with icons of themselves stroking their guns, feeling all manly as a result.

Yeah, that kid is the really disturbed one here.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: MteWamp

At least in MY case, I can't even FATHOM missing something like this with one of MY kids.

Not every parent gets to spend lots of time with their kids.

Especially, in Florida, where many parents work two jobs to make ends meet.

So, kid-parent contact is often just not there, or is minimal.

That leaves the kid free to roam and develop into his own person, while mom and dad are sweating it out at work to bring in the dough, to feed and clothe and educate the ruffians.

No. No. No. Just no. I'm sorry, but I don't consider actually RAISING your kids, and teaching them right from wrong, to be OPTIONAL.

I posted this in another venue, but wanted to include it here.

As mass shootings, outpourings of spite in that guise, mount up in number, I've come to the conclusion that there is something wrong in American society, and it's not the gun culture. It's American culture as a whole. It is the attitudes that Americans have toward one another. There seems to be a lack of collective concern for one's fellow citizens. There seems to be no consensus of opinion that there should be a benchmark of economic status beneath which no American will be allowed to descend unless they willfully exert themselves to do it.

This crops up in lots of different ways, not just malcontents and the mentally unstable shooting random strangers or ex fellow employees. Look at the situation in Puerto Rico after the hurricane. For many Americans, American citizens there are "on their own". Questions are raised whether Texas will want to send aid. Other states raise questions of whether aid should be sent to Texas since a few years ago Texas wouldn't send aid to Louisiana.

What in the "h" is going on with this kind of thing? It's a symptom of a deep problem in American society. There are too many excuses in America to justify turning your back on the helpless, letting the devil take the hindmost, and just not letting the difficulties of one's fellow citizens slow one down.

Being American is like being Muslim. Just as radicals will always be able to find a passage in the Koran that will justify Islamic extremism, rugged American individuals and governments will always be able to find some passage in the Constitution or in American tradition that justifies a "live and let die" attitude to fellow Americans.

America is a culture that is set up with no theoretical limit to the rewards given to the most conniving, unscrupulous and ruthless members of the society and no limit to the level to which the helpless will be allowed to descend. There is a steady migration of wealth into the upper one percent of the society. There are gated communities and armed guards everywhere and mass shootings of the weakest, schoolchildren, by the fragile, disoriented and broken in the society.

It's not about guns. It's about the lack of an American idea of social responsibility. It's about institutionalized and personal cruelty and indifference, even delight in the misfortunes of others. It's about bullying. It's about envy. Brand names and snobbery. It is about the exaggerated importance given to trivia.

America's ideal, freedom uber alles, is destroying it.

a reply to: MOMof3

What do you mean "they" are letting people die? You mean because they won't allow the government to take away the right to bear arms? But you said you'd rather keep your rifles. You believed the Democrat kool ade