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The Myth of Hell
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a reply to: Akragon
The above was of the OP and of his/her opinion. Actually the Christian bible does not teach that Hell is Eternal. Hell is taught as a temporary containment for the unrighteous spirits of the Human species as well as the unrighteous celestial spirits.
That makes sense. If you choose to believe that hell does not exist then I accept and respect your opinion. Now that this matter is finished, would you explain to me what your conception of afterlife is? That is if you subscribe to an afterlife of some sort. I'm just curious and if you care not to say then that is alright too. Good chat, thanks.
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs. Logically it just doesn't make sense.
The above was of the OP and of his/her opinion. Actually the Christian bible does not teach that Hell is Eternal. Hell is taught as a temporary containment for the unrighteous spirits of the Human species as well as the unrighteous celestial spirits.
IF you don't believe in heaven for those before Jesus... and i don't believe in Hell at all... where does that leave us?
That makes sense. If you choose to believe that hell does not exist then I accept and respect your opinion. Now that this matter is finished, would you explain to me what your conception of afterlife is? That is if you subscribe to an afterlife of some sort. I'm just curious and if you care not to say then that is alright too. Good chat, thanks.
a reply to: Seede
Ok... and i realize Christians believe all sorts of silly things... as do most religious people... No offense..
In any case... they died, both of them...
And this is incorrect as well... Moses was "gathered to his people" along with his brother
You don't seem to realize that Judaism has a place similar to the Christian "heaven"... Sheol wasn't ever the only option...
no... thats just not true in the least...
And the story in that chapter was an allegorical story... not something that actually happened, but a story meant to teach a lesson
Nonsense.... Paulianism
there was always an afterlife that was free from punishment for the righteous... Of course being a Christian you don't believe there are righteous people... correct me if im wrong on that if you will
Jews have always believed in a "heaven" like place... which means Jesus also knew of such a place, and taught about it while still alive... His death did not open the "flood gates" to heaven so to speak
No... again where do you get this stuff?
the purpose of blood sacrifice was to give remission of sins... Only a "clean" soul could go to their "heaven" type place... Thus they needed to offer blood to wipe clean their sins... because "life" is within the blood in that religion, and as its written.... an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, "a life for a life"
They were NEVER allowed to drink or eat blood... in fact it is forbidden even today
Leviticus 7:26
26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
i am curious, what sect of Christianity are you anyways... they're teaching you a lot of straight nonsense... or have you came to these conclusions on your own?
All terrestrial life dies at some time and no flesh is allowed in the celestial abode. Scriptures do not say that Elias never died. The terrestrial substance of Elias did return to this earth but it is the spirit of that substance which did not die.
Ok... and i realize Christians believe all sorts of silly things... as do most religious people... No offense..
In any case... they died, both of them...
Moses and Elias were called up from Sheol according to the bible.
And this is incorrect as well... Moses was "gathered to his people" along with his brother
You don't seem to realize that Judaism has a place similar to the Christian "heaven"... Sheol wasn't ever the only option...
At this time, while Jesus was alive on this earth, there was only one place of collective consciousness where the spirits of the human soul were contained. This is shown in the story of Luke 16:19-31.
no... thats just not true in the least...
And the story in that chapter was an allegorical story... not something that actually happened, but a story meant to teach a lesson
It was after the death of Jesus that His kingdom was offered to the righteous and the righteous in Sheol were resurrected to the kingdom of heaven. Thereafter Sheol was only the abode for the unrighteous.
Nonsense.... Paulianism
there was always an afterlife that was free from punishment for the righteous... Of course being a Christian you don't believe there are righteous people... correct me if im wrong on that if you will
Jews have always believed in a "heaven" like place... which means Jesus also knew of such a place, and taught about it while still alive... His death did not open the "flood gates" to heaven so to speak
The point of blood sacrifice is not of our covenant of Jesus since the death of the Christ. Prior to that it was only a covenant given between the Creator and the Hebrews. It's primary purpose was to stop the barbaric Hebrews from blood drinking and to deprive them of a portion of their wealth.
No... again where do you get this stuff?
the purpose of blood sacrifice was to give remission of sins... Only a "clean" soul could go to their "heaven" type place... Thus they needed to offer blood to wipe clean their sins... because "life" is within the blood in that religion, and as its written.... an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, "a life for a life"
They were NEVER allowed to drink or eat blood... in fact it is forbidden even today
Leviticus 7:26
26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
i am curious, what sect of Christianity are you anyways... they're teaching you a lot of straight nonsense... or have you came to these conclusions on your own?
a reply to: Seede
Really has nothing to do with me... but I didn't say the bible taught hell is eternal... that was raggity trying to stuff words in my mouth, but we settled that after a few pages of his babbliing
some Christians teach that its eternal... and some (many) love to toss the idea around as a threat
Sure... and its always a pleasure chatting with you Seed
I do believe in the afterlife... I believe its the place all of us came from, and return to when our bodies fail
some move on to whatever is next, while others return to the physical realm for another round, and are given a body which they deserve from their previous incarnations
this is why some are born into unfortunate circumstances, whatever that may be...
And all of us return home.... There is no hell, no ceasing to exist for the spirit/soul... it is eternal... always has existed and always will...
And we repeat this cosmic dance over and over... or move on to whatever is next... which i will not pretend i know or understand anything about it.
The above was of the OP and of his/her opinion. Actually the Christian bible does not teach that Hell is Eternal. Hell is taught as a temporary containment for the unrighteous spirits of the Human species as well as the unrighteous celestial spirits.
Really has nothing to do with me... but I didn't say the bible taught hell is eternal... that was raggity trying to stuff words in my mouth, but we settled that after a few pages of his babbliing
some Christians teach that its eternal... and some (many) love to toss the idea around as a threat
would you explain to me what your conception of afterlife is? That is if you subscribe to an afterlife of some sort. I'm just curious and if you care not to say then that is alright too. Good chat, thanks.
Sure... and its always a pleasure chatting with you Seed
I do believe in the afterlife... I believe its the place all of us came from, and return to when our bodies fail
some move on to whatever is next, while others return to the physical realm for another round, and are given a body which they deserve from their previous incarnations
this is why some are born into unfortunate circumstances, whatever that may be...
And all of us return home.... There is no hell, no ceasing to exist for the spirit/soul... it is eternal... always has existed and always will...
And we repeat this cosmic dance over and over... or move on to whatever is next... which i will not pretend i know or understand anything about it.
a reply to: Akragon
Yes, both Elias [Elijah] and Moses died. And both of their spirits were sent to Sheol.
Deuteronomy 32:48-50
(48) And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
(49) Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
(50) And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
Aharon died on Mt. Hor in 1274 BCE while Moses died a year later in 1273 BCE on Mt. Nebo. [Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia]
At this time of Moses it was not a matter of Judaism as Judaism was not born yet. It was a matter of tribes of barbaric people forming a nation which led to Judaism. Moses was that leader chosen for the job. At this time in history was when Sheol was derived in the minds of the Hebrew tribes. It was simply considered a collective netherworld where all spirits existed after the death of the soul. Heaven was privy only to the gods of various cultures. Prior to this was the ancestor practice of family cemeteries where the living fed and watered their dead. [Jewish Views Of The Afterlife by Simcha Paull Raphael]
You are correct insofar as you understand but you have not looked at the entirety of blood sacrifice. The reason the personal sin sacrifice was instituted was to deprive the individual of a portion of his wealth. In that manner the individual who had lost his animal by sacrificing [depriving his family] would always be reminded of the Laws of God. At the onset this sacrifice was done by each individual but did not stop the drinking of blood. It was then that the people were ordered to bring their offering to the priestly Levite's who in turn killed and bled the animal and then sprinkled the blood on the the alter to burn the blood and keep the people from blood drinking. This then applied to all animal killings for both food and sin offerings.
That was not in connection to the Temple sacrifice of the national covering of sin. That ritual was reserved to the High Priest alone [once per year] to enter the Holy of Holy sanctuary of the Ark of the Covenant and plead for the covering of sin. This was the ritual that covered the sin of the Afterlife. At this time and up to and including to the time of Jesus [John the Baptizer], there was no remission of sin in the rituals of Hebrews. This was one of the reasons why John was so hated by the Temple authority.
Why was the Jesus movement so hated by the Temple authorities? Because the entire nation was controlled by the Sadducee party. The Sadducee's did not believe in any form of afterlife whatsoever and yet was the minority party between the Pharisees and Sadducee's. Even so, the Sadducee's offered the temple ritual to keep order as the Torah had so ordered. In doing this, the Sadducee's then created a temple money and charged a fee to convert the national currency into temple currency. At the temple were animals to buy for personal sacrifice through the Levite's for a fee to the Temple. This operation was one of the most productive for the Roman Empire. That is why the High Priest office was sold to the highest bidder in the Judaic nation.
You are confusing the doctrine of James with the Liturgy of the Temple. AS Jesus died, it was James who stopped the blood sacrifice in the Nazarene movement but not in the Judaic nation. James had no authority in the Temple except to represent his Nazarene's as their Nasi in their Temple rituals. Blood sacrifice continued for well over three decades after Jesus died. There has never been a ritual of remission of sin given to the Jews except through John and Jesus. There has been a covering of sin per yearly rituals but only in the Temple. Now that the temple is gone there is not even the covering of sin.
The concept of a heavenly abode developed as Jesus died and the Temple disappeared. This developed from the major prophets such as Isaiah who introduced the concept of a new heaven and new earth being created as this universe was vaporized at the end of time. Revelation picks up on this very same prophecy. This was all tied into a general resurrection which is vastly different from that of Jesus. Jesus teaches a daily resurrection of souls who die and are immediately judged and sentenced whereas the Jew has a general resurrection of both body and spirit being reunited, judged and sentenced. The end days of Christianity is when the world is totally destroyed whereas the end days of Judaic understanding is when the throne of David is reinstated and a golden age of world Jewish rule is realized. Then the Jew has their world end and all Jews will enjoy a bodiless eternity in the bundle of life.
There is a vast difference between the doctrine of Jesus and the doctrines of Judaism and even the five denominations of Judaism today differ. Just as in Jesus day there were three major sects of Judaism which all three were vastly different. You can see this in even in the prophets and what they deemed their priorities. Judaism is as confused as is the Roman church and their offshoots.
TextIn any case... they died, both of them...
Yes, both Elias [Elijah] and Moses died. And both of their spirits were sent to Sheol.
And this is incorrect as well... Moses was "gathered to his people" along with his brother
Deuteronomy 32:48-50
(48) And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
(49) Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
(50) And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
Aharon died on Mt. Hor in 1274 BCE while Moses died a year later in 1273 BCE on Mt. Nebo. [Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia]
You don't seem to realize that Judaism has a place similar to the Christian "heaven"... Sheol wasn't ever the only option...
At this time of Moses it was not a matter of Judaism as Judaism was not born yet. It was a matter of tribes of barbaric people forming a nation which led to Judaism. Moses was that leader chosen for the job. At this time in history was when Sheol was derived in the minds of the Hebrew tribes. It was simply considered a collective netherworld where all spirits existed after the death of the soul. Heaven was privy only to the gods of various cultures. Prior to this was the ancestor practice of family cemeteries where the living fed and watered their dead. [Jewish Views Of The Afterlife by Simcha Paull Raphael]
No... again where do you get this stuff? the purpose of blood sacrifice was to give remission of sins... Only a "clean" soul could go to their "heaven" type place... Thus they needed to offer blood to wipe clean their sins... because "life" is within the blood in that religion, and as its written.... an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, "a life for a life" They were NEVER allowed to drink or eat blood... in fact it is forbidden even today Leviticus 7:26 26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
You are correct insofar as you understand but you have not looked at the entirety of blood sacrifice. The reason the personal sin sacrifice was instituted was to deprive the individual of a portion of his wealth. In that manner the individual who had lost his animal by sacrificing [depriving his family] would always be reminded of the Laws of God. At the onset this sacrifice was done by each individual but did not stop the drinking of blood. It was then that the people were ordered to bring their offering to the priestly Levite's who in turn killed and bled the animal and then sprinkled the blood on the the alter to burn the blood and keep the people from blood drinking. This then applied to all animal killings for both food and sin offerings.
That was not in connection to the Temple sacrifice of the national covering of sin. That ritual was reserved to the High Priest alone [once per year] to enter the Holy of Holy sanctuary of the Ark of the Covenant and plead for the covering of sin. This was the ritual that covered the sin of the Afterlife. At this time and up to and including to the time of Jesus [John the Baptizer], there was no remission of sin in the rituals of Hebrews. This was one of the reasons why John was so hated by the Temple authority.
Why was the Jesus movement so hated by the Temple authorities? Because the entire nation was controlled by the Sadducee party. The Sadducee's did not believe in any form of afterlife whatsoever and yet was the minority party between the Pharisees and Sadducee's. Even so, the Sadducee's offered the temple ritual to keep order as the Torah had so ordered. In doing this, the Sadducee's then created a temple money and charged a fee to convert the national currency into temple currency. At the temple were animals to buy for personal sacrifice through the Levite's for a fee to the Temple. This operation was one of the most productive for the Roman Empire. That is why the High Priest office was sold to the highest bidder in the Judaic nation.
You are confusing the doctrine of James with the Liturgy of the Temple. AS Jesus died, it was James who stopped the blood sacrifice in the Nazarene movement but not in the Judaic nation. James had no authority in the Temple except to represent his Nazarene's as their Nasi in their Temple rituals. Blood sacrifice continued for well over three decades after Jesus died. There has never been a ritual of remission of sin given to the Jews except through John and Jesus. There has been a covering of sin per yearly rituals but only in the Temple. Now that the temple is gone there is not even the covering of sin.
The concept of a heavenly abode developed as Jesus died and the Temple disappeared. This developed from the major prophets such as Isaiah who introduced the concept of a new heaven and new earth being created as this universe was vaporized at the end of time. Revelation picks up on this very same prophecy. This was all tied into a general resurrection which is vastly different from that of Jesus. Jesus teaches a daily resurrection of souls who die and are immediately judged and sentenced whereas the Jew has a general resurrection of both body and spirit being reunited, judged and sentenced. The end days of Christianity is when the world is totally destroyed whereas the end days of Judaic understanding is when the throne of David is reinstated and a golden age of world Jewish rule is realized. Then the Jew has their world end and all Jews will enjoy a bodiless eternity in the bundle of life.
There is a vast difference between the doctrine of Jesus and the doctrines of Judaism and even the five denominations of Judaism today differ. Just as in Jesus day there were three major sects of Judaism which all three were vastly different. You can see this in even in the prophets and what they deemed their priorities. Judaism is as confused as is the Roman church and their offshoots.
a reply to: Seede
Still not sure where you're getting the idea that the people before Moses drank blood
In any case theres little point if dealing with the time before moses, as there really is nothing to substantiate anything from that time. And Moses didn't write the Torah, though it is said it was preserved through oral tradition... which i personally, HIGHLY doubt.. Said writings were first written down somewhere between 650-500BC
So lets try another approach...
We'll start with descriptions of Sheol from the bible...
Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom
( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10)
There is no light
( Job 10:21-22 ; 17:13 ; Psalms 88:6 Psalms 88:12 ; 143:3 )
no praise of God
( Psalm 6:5 ; 30:9 ; 88:10-12 ; 115:17 ; Isa 38:18 )
no sound at all
( Psalm 94:17 ; 115:17 )
Its inhabitants are weak, trembling shades
( Job 26:5 ; Psalm 88:10-12 ; Isa 14:9-10 )
No one can never hope to escape from its gates
( Job 10:21 ; 17:13-16 ; Isa 38:10 )
Sheol is like a ravenous beast that swallows the living
( Prov 1:12 ; 27:20 ; Isa 5:14 )
Now i turn your attention to the phrase i quoted in my previous post... Gathered onto his people...
Clearly, "his/their people" are alive... not shades, and this phrase also implies that there are many "people" there... And Abraham wasn't the only person that was "gathered onto their people"
Ishmael - Gen 25:17
Isaac - Gen 35:29
Jacob - Gen 49:33
Moses and Aaron... Both using the same phrase...
(No need to give me the time line by the way, i know it)
King Josiah - II Kings 22:20
This place of gathering was NOT Sheol... And quite clearly all of these figures had their own people, so basically A lot of people went to this place...
So again, as i've previously stated.... There wasn't ever a time at least in biblical terms that "sheol" was the only option...
And lets not forget "theres nothing new on heaven or earth"... so said place has always been there...
Jesus did not just open the flood gates to this place when he died...
Still not sure where you're getting the idea that the people before Moses drank blood
In any case theres little point if dealing with the time before moses, as there really is nothing to substantiate anything from that time. And Moses didn't write the Torah, though it is said it was preserved through oral tradition... which i personally, HIGHLY doubt.. Said writings were first written down somewhere between 650-500BC
So lets try another approach...
We'll start with descriptions of Sheol from the bible...
Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom
( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10)
There is no light
( Job 10:21-22 ; 17:13 ; Psalms 88:6 Psalms 88:12 ; 143:3 )
no praise of God
( Psalm 6:5 ; 30:9 ; 88:10-12 ; 115:17 ; Isa 38:18 )
no sound at all
( Psalm 94:17 ; 115:17 )
Its inhabitants are weak, trembling shades
( Job 26:5 ; Psalm 88:10-12 ; Isa 14:9-10 )
No one can never hope to escape from its gates
( Job 10:21 ; 17:13-16 ; Isa 38:10 )
Sheol is like a ravenous beast that swallows the living
( Prov 1:12 ; 27:20 ; Isa 5:14 )
Now i turn your attention to the phrase i quoted in my previous post... Gathered onto his people...
Clearly, "his/their people" are alive... not shades, and this phrase also implies that there are many "people" there... And Abraham wasn't the only person that was "gathered onto their people"
Ishmael - Gen 25:17
Isaac - Gen 35:29
Jacob - Gen 49:33
Moses and Aaron... Both using the same phrase...
(No need to give me the time line by the way, i know it)
King Josiah - II Kings 22:20
This place of gathering was NOT Sheol... And quite clearly all of these figures had their own people, so basically A lot of people went to this place...
So again, as i've previously stated.... There wasn't ever a time at least in biblical terms that "sheol" was the only option...
And lets not forget "theres nothing new on heaven or earth"... so said place has always been there...
Jesus did not just open the flood gates to this place when he died...
originally posted by: badw0lf
originally posted by: Akragon
originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
originally posted by: Akragon
originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
a reply to: silo13
The concept of Eternal hell wasn't introduced until the new Testament. The old testament doesn't mention hell.
What kind of Savior is Jesus if he brings Hellfire with him?
it does actually... many times
But theres no descriptions of what happens or what it looks like...
Eternal torture and hellfire is strictly NT.... Judaism does not believe in such things
Can you quote old testament scripture that mentions hell?
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Are you saying that god dwells in heaven, and in hell?
What a charlatan he is. and not worthy of trust.
Yes God is there for you even in hell. You make your own hell in the afterlife. According to your actions, deeds, mindset in this life is where your level of enlightenment will be. God still gives us a chance to learn the lessons we should have learned here on earth and ascend closer to the eternal light.
Unfortunately some on the lowest level never ascend or actually like where they are and become negative entities.
Let's imagine that I have been evil my entire life. My habits are selfish and repugnant. I am now old, I come to "believe" in Jesus on my death bed. I
now qualify for eternal life in heaven. I die and bring my repugnant, evil habits into heaven because I never had a chance to change on earth because
I died right after I came to "believe". It would not take too many people like myself to corrupt it making it a earthlike in heaven, with greed,
selfishness and so on.
On the other hand, God could make me perfect so I didn't ruin heaven, but that doesn't seem logical. That would effectively mean you could cater to your base desires and believe at the end of your life and come out fine in heaven. Never having to attempt a righteous life. What would be the point? Why wouldn't God just make a bunch of perfect beings to join him in Heaven? Why allow them to wallow in sin, "believe" in the end without trying to live a just life and make it to heaven?
My other point is, if you bring humans like they are now, even ones that believe they are "good Christians" and worthy of heaven, they will still practice sinful behavior. They will eventually ruin heaven, just like they ruined earth, unless God does a dramatic transformation of what they are. Why go through this whole earth thing, with the illogical requirement that all you have to do is believe? What does believing do? Are those of you that "believe" perfect? If you were replicated what kind of a world would all of you create? Are you judgemental, do you use more resources than you need, are you materialistic, are you greedy? Do you want to see that in heaven? Do you really think that "believing" will create a utopia.
What is believing in Jesus, anyway. Do you just believe he existed, or that he is the Son of God? What does that do? How does that change a thing. How do you become a better person from that? I can look at the life of Jesus and see his good qualities and try to emulate them in my life, which is a lot more than what most Christians I know do. But because I don't claim I believe, I am less than one who claims "belief" and is a treacherous, liar. Go figure.....
On the other hand, God could make me perfect so I didn't ruin heaven, but that doesn't seem logical. That would effectively mean you could cater to your base desires and believe at the end of your life and come out fine in heaven. Never having to attempt a righteous life. What would be the point? Why wouldn't God just make a bunch of perfect beings to join him in Heaven? Why allow them to wallow in sin, "believe" in the end without trying to live a just life and make it to heaven?
My other point is, if you bring humans like they are now, even ones that believe they are "good Christians" and worthy of heaven, they will still practice sinful behavior. They will eventually ruin heaven, just like they ruined earth, unless God does a dramatic transformation of what they are. Why go through this whole earth thing, with the illogical requirement that all you have to do is believe? What does believing do? Are those of you that "believe" perfect? If you were replicated what kind of a world would all of you create? Are you judgemental, do you use more resources than you need, are you materialistic, are you greedy? Do you want to see that in heaven? Do you really think that "believing" will create a utopia.
What is believing in Jesus, anyway. Do you just believe he existed, or that he is the Son of God? What does that do? How does that change a thing. How do you become a better person from that? I can look at the life of Jesus and see his good qualities and try to emulate them in my life, which is a lot more than what most Christians I know do. But because I don't claim I believe, I am less than one who claims "belief" and is a treacherous, liar. Go figure.....
originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.
Logically it just doesn't make sense.
1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.
2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.
What do you think?
I guess the pope agrees with you??????
www.cnsnews.com...
Pope Francis. (YouTube) In another interview with his longtime atheist friend, Eugenio Scalfari, Pope Francis claims that Hell does not exist and that condemned souls just "disappear." This is a denial of the 2,000-year-old teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of Hell and the eternal existence of the soul.
I question the authenticity of this interview as I don't know that I have seen a pope on record ever say anything like this.
originally posted by: shooterbrody
Pope Francis. (YouTube) In another interview with his longtime atheist friend, Eugenio Scalfari, Pope Francis claims that Hell does not exist and that condemned souls just "disappear." This is a denial of the 2,000-year-old teaching of the Catholic Church about the reality of Hell and the eternal existence of the soul.
I question the authenticity of this interview as I don't know that I have seen a pope on record ever say anything like this.
It's not like they didn't know all this time though:
“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [neʹphesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·kheʹ] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450. [whereislogic: i.e. humans are not eternal, living human beings have not existed or lived eternally, human souls are not eternal, they are born and they die]
...
What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?
“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.
Of course those concepts are requirements again for the doctrine of literal hellfire and eternal torture of immaterial souls.
The original-language terms (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
The connotations that the English “soul” commonly carries in the minds of most persons are not in agreement with the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words as used by the inspired Bible writers. This fact has steadily gained wider acknowledgment. Back in 1897, in the Journal of Biblical Literature (Vol. XVI, p. 30), Professor C. A. Briggs, as a result of detailed analysis of the use of neʹphesh, observed: “Soul in English usage at the present time conveys usually a very different meaning from נפש [neʹphesh] in Hebrew, and it is easy for the incautious reader to misinterpret.”
...
The difficulty lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word “soul” stem primarily, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, actually pagan religious thought.
...
In direct contrast with the Greek teaching of the psy·kheʹ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·kheʹ and neʹphesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [neʹphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.
The Roman Catholic translation, The New American Bible, in its “Glossary of Biblical Theology Terms” (pp. 27, 28), says: “In the New Testament, to ‘save one’s soul’ (Mk 8:35) does not mean to save some ‘spiritual’ part of man, as opposed to his ‘body’ (in the Platonic sense) but the whole person with emphasis on the fact that the person is living, desiring, loving and willing, etc., in addition to being concrete and physical.”—Edition published by P. J. Kenedy & Sons, New York, 1970.
Neʹphesh evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe” and in a literal sense neʹphesh could be rendered as “a breather.” Koehler and Baumgartner’s Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros (Leiden, 1958, p. 627) defines it as: “the breathing substance, making man a[nd] animal living beings Gn 1, 20, the soul (strictly distinct from the greek notion of soul) the seat of which is the blood Gn 9, 4f Lv 17, 11 Dt 12, 23: (249 X) . . . soul = living being, individual, person.”
Sources: Soul: Insight, Volume 2
Soul: Reasoning
edit on 29-3-2018 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Akragon
In accepted Judaic studies we have basically three eras of gathered literature that must be addressed and considered relative to each other. One is the early biblical period from Abraham to the Exodus. Number two is from the preexilic period from the conquest of Canaan [at the time of Joshua] to the Babylonian exile. Number three is from the postexilic period of the Babylonian exile to the Helllenistic period. – As you requested I won’t list time sequence as I realize we would never agree on that matter at all.
In order to show the true picture we must include all three eras of the biblical perspective and not certain literature of our perspective that bolsters our theology. We also must remember that it was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were the progenitor’s of Judaism. In that, we also cannot simply pull verses out of context and insert our own understanding without understanding the reasons of the literature.
You wote ----
Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom
( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10)
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
That understanding is not as you present the verse. This does not say that in Sheol you have no love, hate, or envy as you have understood. It merely states that the love, hatred and envy that you knew as you were alive is now gone to you from this realm. This does not even infer that you become a zombie spirit in Sheol with no mind whatsoever as you seem to portray. You must read the entire thought of the entire subject matter and quit the cherry picking verses in partial thought.
In the era of Abram, before He was introduced to his God, there was nothing in Hebrew literature to lead us into their understanding of a underworld of any sort. This included the grave of dirt or caverns of sorts. In the days of Adam [according to tradition] the burial was to lay the body uncovered side by side in a cave of either soil or rock. But in the literature of Abram it is noted that the dead were buried in the earth and in shallow graves. Most of the families were kept together in one place and were believed to be communitive. There was the practice of feeding and watering the dead in the grave. Abram was born and raised under the Moon God Sin. That was the chief deity in this biblical period along with the Polytheistic belief of certain other deities such as Moloch.
As the early Canaanites were polytheistic they naturally had many practices of postmortem. What we are discussing here is the Hebrew origin and practice of postmortem and even within this structure there is no uniform tribal practice before the sixth century. We have come a long way from Jacob being gathered to his fathers and entombed in a cave of Machpelah.
Gen 49:29 And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite,
Gen 49:30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.
Gen 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.
Gen 49:32 The purchase of the field and of the cave that is therein was from the children of Heth.
Gen 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Jacob was not buried in the earth but was laid beside his loved ones but nothing noted of an underworld such as we see in the second biblical era. This first biblical era of which Jacob shows us, we have nothing said of Sheol or for that matter any domain of the underworld. It is not till the postexilic period that we begin to see any sort of underworld which evolved with the Hebrews Sheol.
So in that lite I leave my theological understanding of Sheol. Sheol was a evolved realm of postmortem theology that appeared in about the sixth century BCE. It is shown in the book of Luke as I posted and is not parabolic by any stretch of the imagination. A story does not have factual names such as Abraham or Lazarus and be a parable. Luke’s account is understood as living actors in literature. I have heard that parroted many times but it is absolutely false narrative. Whether you believe or disbelieve is your theology and I don’t fault you for that at all. You are just as entitled to believe as it pleases you as anyone else. Thanks for the chat. I appreciate that.
Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom ( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10)
In accepted Judaic studies we have basically three eras of gathered literature that must be addressed and considered relative to each other. One is the early biblical period from Abraham to the Exodus. Number two is from the preexilic period from the conquest of Canaan [at the time of Joshua] to the Babylonian exile. Number three is from the postexilic period of the Babylonian exile to the Helllenistic period. – As you requested I won’t list time sequence as I realize we would never agree on that matter at all.
In order to show the true picture we must include all three eras of the biblical perspective and not certain literature of our perspective that bolsters our theology. We also must remember that it was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who were the progenitor’s of Judaism. In that, we also cannot simply pull verses out of context and insert our own understanding without understanding the reasons of the literature.
You wote ----
Sheol is devoid of love, hate, envy, work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom
( Ecclesiastes 9:6 Ecclesiastes 9:10)
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
That understanding is not as you present the verse. This does not say that in Sheol you have no love, hate, or envy as you have understood. It merely states that the love, hatred and envy that you knew as you were alive is now gone to you from this realm. This does not even infer that you become a zombie spirit in Sheol with no mind whatsoever as you seem to portray. You must read the entire thought of the entire subject matter and quit the cherry picking verses in partial thought.
In the era of Abram, before He was introduced to his God, there was nothing in Hebrew literature to lead us into their understanding of a underworld of any sort. This included the grave of dirt or caverns of sorts. In the days of Adam [according to tradition] the burial was to lay the body uncovered side by side in a cave of either soil or rock. But in the literature of Abram it is noted that the dead were buried in the earth and in shallow graves. Most of the families were kept together in one place and were believed to be communitive. There was the practice of feeding and watering the dead in the grave. Abram was born and raised under the Moon God Sin. That was the chief deity in this biblical period along with the Polytheistic belief of certain other deities such as Moloch.
As the early Canaanites were polytheistic they naturally had many practices of postmortem. What we are discussing here is the Hebrew origin and practice of postmortem and even within this structure there is no uniform tribal practice before the sixth century. We have come a long way from Jacob being gathered to his fathers and entombed in a cave of Machpelah.
Gen 49:29 And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite,
Gen 49:30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a buryingplace.
Gen 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.
Gen 49:32 The purchase of the field and of the cave that is therein was from the children of Heth.
Gen 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Jacob was not buried in the earth but was laid beside his loved ones but nothing noted of an underworld such as we see in the second biblical era. This first biblical era of which Jacob shows us, we have nothing said of Sheol or for that matter any domain of the underworld. It is not till the postexilic period that we begin to see any sort of underworld which evolved with the Hebrews Sheol.
So in that lite I leave my theological understanding of Sheol. Sheol was a evolved realm of postmortem theology that appeared in about the sixth century BCE. It is shown in the book of Luke as I posted and is not parabolic by any stretch of the imagination. A story does not have factual names such as Abraham or Lazarus and be a parable. Luke’s account is understood as living actors in literature. I have heard that parroted many times but it is absolutely false narrative. Whether you believe or disbelieve is your theology and I don’t fault you for that at all. You are just as entitled to believe as it pleases you as anyone else. Thanks for the chat. I appreciate that.
a reply to: Seede
Hey hey, we're not done my friend...
oh really...
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham............
Who, and or where did Luke get this story from... Luke interviewed people to get his gospel. Likely the best source he had was mary... so this is assuming that Jesus told this story to someone... (mary?)
Notice also, Luke is a friend of Paul... said story isn't mentioned in any other gospel... even though Laz was mentioned in John...
Though in reality they "might" have been real people, and its just a story... no basis in reality
And im not saying that the afterlife isn't a reality, but the story is fantasy... akin to jack and the bean stock... we can't prove either actually happened
Its not false narrative, Luke is based on narrative... stories told by people that may have known Jesus...
influenced by Paul
and all based on fragmented pieces of ancient literature...
You're concerned with eras on biblical times when we don't know anything about the times you're speaking of...
We know of earlier cultures based on their writing... but theres no writing from Abraham or anyone that knew anything about him in his time...
There is NO bible before Moses... So its pointless discussing it
And in the time of Moses, Sheol wasn't the only option...
Thanks for the chat. I appreciate that.
Hey hey, we're not done my friend...
It is shown in the book of Luke as I posted and is not parabolic by any stretch of the imagination.
oh really...
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham............
Who, and or where did Luke get this story from... Luke interviewed people to get his gospel. Likely the best source he had was mary... so this is assuming that Jesus told this story to someone... (mary?)
Notice also, Luke is a friend of Paul... said story isn't mentioned in any other gospel... even though Laz was mentioned in John...
Luke’s account is understood as living actors in literature.
Though in reality they "might" have been real people, and its just a story... no basis in reality
And im not saying that the afterlife isn't a reality, but the story is fantasy... akin to jack and the bean stock... we can't prove either actually happened
I have heard that parroted many times but it is absolutely false narrative. Whether you believe or disbelieve is your theology and I don’t fault you for that at all. You are just as entitled to believe as it pleases you as anyone else.
Its not false narrative, Luke is based on narrative... stories told by people that may have known Jesus...
influenced by Paul
and all based on fragmented pieces of ancient literature...
You're concerned with eras on biblical times when we don't know anything about the times you're speaking of...
We know of earlier cultures based on their writing... but theres no writing from Abraham or anyone that knew anything about him in his time...
There is NO bible before Moses... So its pointless discussing it
And in the time of Moses, Sheol wasn't the only option...
originally posted by: pointessa
Let's imagine that I have been evil my entire life. My habits are selfish and repugnant. I am now old, I come to "believe" in Jesus on my death bed. I now qualify for eternal life in heaven. I die and bring my repugnant, evil habits into heaven because I never had a chance to change on earth because I died right after I came to "believe". It would not take too many people like myself to corrupt it making it a earthlike in heaven, with greed, selfishness and so on.
If you sincerely repent before you die, would you repeat the same mistake?
There is no evil in heaven. You can't commit evil. Your heart will be purified and your mind will be cleansed.
originally posted by: pointessa
On the other hand, God could make me perfect so I didn't ruin heaven, but that doesn't seem logical. That would effectively mean you could cater to your base desires and believe at the end of your life and come out fine in heaven. Never having to attempt a righteous life. What would be the point?
That is why there will be judgement day. You can't lie to god. If you intentionally want to repent on deathbed, you will be sorry. God knows what is in your heart. You'll need to follow the examples or path of your spiritual figures. They will lead and act as your "lawyer".
originally posted by: pointessa
Why wouldn't God just make a bunch of perfect beings to join him in Heaven? Why allow them to wallow in sin, "believe" in the end without trying to live a just life and make it to heaven?
Once upon a time, there were perfect beings called Adam and Eve. They are so perfect that Satan become jealous. And thus, the story of Genesis began...
originally posted by: pointessa
My other point is, if you bring humans like they are now, even ones that believe they are "good Christians" and worthy of heaven, they will still practice sinful behavior. They will eventually ruin heaven, just like they ruined earth, unless God does a dramatic transformation of what they are.
Only God judge "good Christians" or rather "good human". And this "good human" can't ruin heaven again. Adam and Eve already did that. Therefore, there will be no more serpent. No more evil. No more suffering. There is only you, your spouse, god and all the angels who come to serve you. You own a heavenly kingdom.
originally posted by: pointessa
Why go through this whole earth thing, with the illogical requirement that all you have to do is believe? What does believing do?
Believing itself wouldn't do anything. But it will prompt you into doing bad or good. If you believe murder is good, then you will murder other person without remorse. It's your action that matter. You will be judged based on your action.
originally posted by: pointessa
Are those of you that "believe" perfect?
There is no such thing as perfect believe.
originally posted by: pointessa
If you were replicated what kind of a world would all of you create? Are you judgemental, do you use more resources than you need, are you materialistic, are you greedy? Do you want to see that in heaven? Do you really think that "believing" will create a utopia.
No, believing will not create utopia. It's your deed and action that will create utopia. If you believe in righteous, goodwill and forgiveness, you will be prompted to do so. But if you believe in torturing the innocent, in greediness, in evilness etc.. Then you will create chaos and hell.
originally posted by: pointessa
What is believing in Jesus, anyway. Do you just believe he existed, or that he is the Son of God? What does that do? How does that change a thing. How do you become a better person from that?
I'll leave this to Christians. I have my own belief system.
originally posted by: pointessa
I can look at the life of Jesus and see his good qualities and try to emulate them in my life, which is a lot more than what most Christians I know do. But because I don't claim I believe, I am less than one who claims "belief" and is a treacherous, liar. Go figure.....
It goes back to the heart or soul or the Holy Spirit. Only this things that can actually change your life into a better a person. Not believe or faith itself. Faith is meaningless without works, just like faith in Easter Bunny.
a reply to: Akragon
You are correct in that we can't prove either actually happened and in fact we can't prove that anything happened in the theological realm. If you chose to doubt Luke's historical account in this case, then not only is the letter of Luke in question but also his accounts of the Acts of the Apostles. Nevertheless, the Lazarus of Luke 16 is not the Lazarus of John 11 and 12. The Lazarus of John was a personal friend of Jesus and the brother of Mary while the Lazarus of Luke was a man who had already been judged and was in Sheol. The Lazarus of John was restored to the his formal terrestrial life while the Lazarus of Luke was not restored to terrestrial life.
You seem to believe that Luke's account of Lazarus is a parable. How so does it meet the requirements of a parable? The account of Luke also identified the beggar as well as it named the abode of Abraham and Abraham him self. A parable does not do this, and if it were a parable it would have no identification of the beggar or the realm of hell or the name of Abraham. How do we assume this? We assume this because a parable references all people regardless of affiliations. If a heathen would read this, it would not apply to that heathen simply because Abraham and possibly Lazarus is not applicable to their understanding in their language. It simply is not parabolic.
Now let's suppose that Luke's account is parabolic. Regardless of how either one of us believes, you cannot deny that this story is not a confirmation of a Greek hell or a Hebrew Sheol. If a Jew reads this in his/her translation, they would and do accept the story as pertaining to a netherworld. Even though the Jew would more than likely believe that this Netherworld in Sheol, of Luke's account, serves only as a twelve month punishment and not eternal or annihilation of any sort. That would be their understanding as Luke has written the story.
If a Christian would read Luke's story he/she would take into account other scriptures such as Revelation and understand that this netherworld would indeed eventually be a second death and eventually annihilation of the spirit. So within that very same story we would have two very distinct understandings. But also, both Christian and Jew would relate to a netherworld of some sort. I can understand that premise but I cannot understand how a Christian could deny a hell when it is clearly referenced 23 times in 23 places and in 7 different books of NT literature. In the Christian bible hell is referenced 31 times in ten books in the OT. So in some Christian bibles hell is referenced 54 times in the accepted biblical literature. Naturally in the Hebrew Tanakh the Greek word hell is not used.
Quite the opposite. We have much evidence of the postmortem practices through archeology of the many graves which have been examined in funerary practices. Dates as well as hard evidence are recorded and sorted into classes of eras. One such example is that of graves which were examined and dated in the 1600 to 1800 BCE eras. Many of these graves in certain geographic locations do verify that the dead were fed and watered exactly as certain literature and traditions describe. There are many studies of many eras that verify exactly as I have said.
The thing that really concerns me is that of Christianity who accepts some of the biblical NT but do not believe in hell as it is related in the NT literature. I can't understand how one could accept the Christ Jesus and the NT accounts of Him and not believe His accounts as referenced to hell. I could understand if a single translation was in error but not when many authors of both the NT and outside literature are relating the postmortem hell.
Text And im not saying that the afterlife isn't a reality, but the story is fantasy... akin to jack and the bean stock... we can't prove either actually happened
You are correct in that we can't prove either actually happened and in fact we can't prove that anything happened in the theological realm. If you chose to doubt Luke's historical account in this case, then not only is the letter of Luke in question but also his accounts of the Acts of the Apostles. Nevertheless, the Lazarus of Luke 16 is not the Lazarus of John 11 and 12. The Lazarus of John was a personal friend of Jesus and the brother of Mary while the Lazarus of Luke was a man who had already been judged and was in Sheol. The Lazarus of John was restored to the his formal terrestrial life while the Lazarus of Luke was not restored to terrestrial life.
You seem to believe that Luke's account of Lazarus is a parable. How so does it meet the requirements of a parable? The account of Luke also identified the beggar as well as it named the abode of Abraham and Abraham him self. A parable does not do this, and if it were a parable it would have no identification of the beggar or the realm of hell or the name of Abraham. How do we assume this? We assume this because a parable references all people regardless of affiliations. If a heathen would read this, it would not apply to that heathen simply because Abraham and possibly Lazarus is not applicable to their understanding in their language. It simply is not parabolic.
Now let's suppose that Luke's account is parabolic. Regardless of how either one of us believes, you cannot deny that this story is not a confirmation of a Greek hell or a Hebrew Sheol. If a Jew reads this in his/her translation, they would and do accept the story as pertaining to a netherworld. Even though the Jew would more than likely believe that this Netherworld in Sheol, of Luke's account, serves only as a twelve month punishment and not eternal or annihilation of any sort. That would be their understanding as Luke has written the story.
If a Christian would read Luke's story he/she would take into account other scriptures such as Revelation and understand that this netherworld would indeed eventually be a second death and eventually annihilation of the spirit. So within that very same story we would have two very distinct understandings. But also, both Christian and Jew would relate to a netherworld of some sort. I can understand that premise but I cannot understand how a Christian could deny a hell when it is clearly referenced 23 times in 23 places and in 7 different books of NT literature. In the Christian bible hell is referenced 31 times in ten books in the OT. So in some Christian bibles hell is referenced 54 times in the accepted biblical literature. Naturally in the Hebrew Tanakh the Greek word hell is not used.
You're concerned with eras on biblical times when we don't know anything about the times you're speaking of...
Quite the opposite. We have much evidence of the postmortem practices through archeology of the many graves which have been examined in funerary practices. Dates as well as hard evidence are recorded and sorted into classes of eras. One such example is that of graves which were examined and dated in the 1600 to 1800 BCE eras. Many of these graves in certain geographic locations do verify that the dead were fed and watered exactly as certain literature and traditions describe. There are many studies of many eras that verify exactly as I have said.
The thing that really concerns me is that of Christianity who accepts some of the biblical NT but do not believe in hell as it is related in the NT literature. I can't understand how one could accept the Christ Jesus and the NT accounts of Him and not believe His accounts as referenced to hell. I could understand if a single translation was in error but not when many authors of both the NT and outside literature are relating the postmortem hell.
a reply to: Ursushorribilis
Yes, of course everyone gets the reason for lies, we were animals, so the big man says "thou shall not kill" they seen how effective this was so made up some more, then more,
Jesus died for your sins to make you feel guilty, and Mecca is a building that houses a meteor..... When's the great flood coming again anyway, it's time for a reset.
Yes, of course everyone gets the reason for lies, we were animals, so the big man says "thou shall not kill" they seen how effective this was so made up some more, then more,
Jesus died for your sins to make you feel guilty, and Mecca is a building that houses a meteor..... When's the great flood coming again anyway, it's time for a reset.
a reply to: EasternShadow
I cannot agree with what you posted here. According to my understanding there had to be evil [by choice] in heaven for the one third of the heavenly host to be cast from the celestial realm.
The 65th chapter of Isaiah says that there is not only evil in heaven but also physical death in heaven. As you read Isaiah 65:17-25 you can see in verse 20 that the sinner will be accursed. As you read Revelation chapter 22 you will see the same in verses 14 and 15. But when in study do not read outside of thought. Read the entire thought. It may entail the entire chapter.
This is a great study for Christians who are well set in Christianity and not influenced by other ideologies. It truly leads one to step into the depths of salvation understanding.
There is no evil in heaven. You can't commit evil. Your heart will be purified and your mind will be cleansed.
I cannot agree with what you posted here. According to my understanding there had to be evil [by choice] in heaven for the one third of the heavenly host to be cast from the celestial realm.
The 65th chapter of Isaiah says that there is not only evil in heaven but also physical death in heaven. As you read Isaiah 65:17-25 you can see in verse 20 that the sinner will be accursed. As you read Revelation chapter 22 you will see the same in verses 14 and 15. But when in study do not read outside of thought. Read the entire thought. It may entail the entire chapter.
This is a great study for Christians who are well set in Christianity and not influenced by other ideologies. It truly leads one to step into the depths of salvation understanding.
originally posted by: Seede
I cannot agree with what you posted here. According to my understanding there had to be evil [by choice] in heaven for the one third of the heavenly host to be cast from the celestial realm.
I believe you are referring the event before the judgment days.
Question: "Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer?"
Revelation 12:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
When earth is destroyed, so will be satan and all the devils.
New heavens and a new earth.
Isaiah 65:17-19
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
originally posted by: Seede
The 65th chapter of Isaiah says that there is not only evil in heaven but also physical death in heaven.
I respectful disagree
Isaiah 25:7-8
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.
originally posted by: Seede
As you read Isaiah 65:17-25 you can see in verse 20 that the sinner will be accursed. As you read Revelation chapter 22 you will see the same in verses 14 and 15. But when in study do not read outside of thought. Read the entire thought. It may entail the entire chapter.
Isaiah 20 refer to New Earth. People of New Earth will live long life. It didn't say sinners will be accursed. It said it's a cursed for someone who fail to live out 100 years old.
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
Here is what Isaiah say about peaceful life in new earth and heavens.
Isaiah 65:25
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.
originally posted by: Seede
This is a great study for Christians who are well set in Christianity and not influenced by other ideologies. It truly leads one to step into the depths of salvation understanding.
It doesn't have to be Christians. I don't believe a lot of things about Christian theology especially,trinity and logos. But I believe in heaven and righteous way. So, Anyone is welcomed to believe it. However, in the end it's the works ( our deed ) that ultimately decide our fate.
edit on
1-4-2018 by EasternShadow because: (no reason given)
a reply to: EasternShadow
Yes I am referencing Revelation 12:3-9 -----
Rev 12:3-9
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8)And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Verse 4 is commonly understood as the stars being the elite celestial creation of heaven.
I believe I also referred to Revelation 22:14-15 --------------
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
In this study, which is quite extensive, there are several points that must be considered before the start of this study. Firstly, one cannot interpret sin in heaven in Judaism because it is not allowed in Judaic theology. Angels cannot sin in their perspective and with that doctrine the interpretations of any celestial sin cannot be allowed. Therefore there was no war in heaven and no angels cast from heaven. That is Judaic philosophy and if you subscribe to that philosophy then we can't go any further with the Christian philosophy.
Secondly is that Judaic philosophy dictates that the world and the universe is renewed and not destroyed. Don't confuse NT rabbinic philosophy with the Prophets teachings because you will go nuts trying to understand. The New Heaven, Earth, and New Jerusalem of Isaiah is a heavenly piece of real estate whereas these same scriptures of Judaism are simply of what we have today.
Why the difference? Because the end days of the Jews are simply the rebuilding of Jerusalem which becomes the world center of world power. Yes it will be a one world power and the Jews will be seated as the benefactors of this world order under the reemergence of the throne of David. It will be a rebuilding of this terrestrial world and not a kingdom in heaven such as John visioned. You must realize what you are reading to understand your own belief and not mix the two doctrines. Rabbinic theology is not the same as the doctrine of Jesus.
I believe you are referring the event before the judgment days. Question: "Did one third of the angels fall with Lucifer?"
Yes I am referencing Revelation 12:3-9 -----
Rev 12:3-9
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8)And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Verse 4 is commonly understood as the stars being the elite celestial creation of heaven.
I believe I also referred to Revelation 22:14-15 --------------
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
In this study, which is quite extensive, there are several points that must be considered before the start of this study. Firstly, one cannot interpret sin in heaven in Judaism because it is not allowed in Judaic theology. Angels cannot sin in their perspective and with that doctrine the interpretations of any celestial sin cannot be allowed. Therefore there was no war in heaven and no angels cast from heaven. That is Judaic philosophy and if you subscribe to that philosophy then we can't go any further with the Christian philosophy.
Secondly is that Judaic philosophy dictates that the world and the universe is renewed and not destroyed. Don't confuse NT rabbinic philosophy with the Prophets teachings because you will go nuts trying to understand. The New Heaven, Earth, and New Jerusalem of Isaiah is a heavenly piece of real estate whereas these same scriptures of Judaism are simply of what we have today.
Why the difference? Because the end days of the Jews are simply the rebuilding of Jerusalem which becomes the world center of world power. Yes it will be a one world power and the Jews will be seated as the benefactors of this world order under the reemergence of the throne of David. It will be a rebuilding of this terrestrial world and not a kingdom in heaven such as John visioned. You must realize what you are reading to understand your own belief and not mix the two doctrines. Rabbinic theology is not the same as the doctrine of Jesus.
originally posted by: Seede
Yes I am referencing Revelation 12:3-9 -----
Rev 12:3-9
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
(7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
(8)And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Verse 4 is commonly understood as the stars being the elite celestial creation of heaven.
I believe I also referred to Revelation 22:14-15 --------------
Revelation 22:14-15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So you have brought up Christian philosophy since you disagree with my earlier post, that there is no evil in heaven ( based on Judaic theology ).
I'm fine with it.
originally posted by: Seede
In this study, which is quite extensive, there are several points that must be considered before the start of this study. Firstly, one cannot interpret sin in heaven in Judaism because it is not allowed in Judaic theology. Angels cannot sin in their perspective and with that doctrine the interpretations of any celestial sin cannot be allowed. Therefore there was no war in heaven and no angels cast from heaven. That is Judaic philosophy and if you subscribe to that philosophy then we can't go any further with the Christian philosophy.
So, are we going to discuss Christian philosophy or Judaic theology?
Since you brought up John's Revelation to your disagreement with no evil in heaven, I assume you wish to discuss this from Christian's philosophy? Even so, I stand correct, that Satan and his evil angels has no more place in heaven after the battle with Michael.
originally posted by: Seede
Secondly is that Judaic philosophy dictates that the world and the universe is renewed and not destroyed.
Not according to Prophet Isaiah.
Isaiah 24 New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
The Lord Will Destroy the Earth
24 The Lord is going to completely destroy everything on earth.
He will twist its surface.
He’ll scatter those who live on it.
2 Priests and people alike will suffer.
So will masters and their servants.
And so will women and their female servants.
Sellers and buyers alike will suffer.
So will those who borrow and those who lend.
And so will those who owe money and those who lend it.
3 The earth will be completely destroyed.
Everything of value will be taken out of it.
That’s what the Lord has said.
17 Listen, you people of the earth.
Terror, a pit and a trap are waiting for you.
18 Anyone who runs away from the terror
will fall into the pit.
Anyone who climbs out of the pit
will be caught in the trap.
The Lord will open the windows of the skies.
He will flood the land.
The foundations of the earth will shake.
19 The earth will be broken up.
It will split open.
It will be shaken to pieces.
originally posted by: Seede
Don't confuse NT rabbinic philosophy with the Prophets teachings because you will go nuts trying to understand.
Prophet Isaiah taught what is needed to understand. There is no misunderstanding to his words.
originally posted by: Seede
The New Heaven, Earth, and New Jerusalem of Isaiah is a heavenly piece of real estate whereas these same scriptures of Judaism are simply of what we have today.
Why the difference? Because the end days of the Jews are simply the rebuilding of Jerusalem which becomes the world center of world power. Yes it will be a one world power and the Jews will be seated as the benefactors of this world order under the reemergence of the throne of David. It will be a rebuilding of this terrestrial world and not a kingdom in heaven such as John visioned.
As stated by Isaiah Chapter 24, Earth will be destroyed.
Isaiah Chapter 65, mention "create" 3 times. Not "rebuild"
And Isaiah Chapter 66 clearly distinguish between Heaven and Earth.
66 This is what the Lord says:
“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
Where is the house you will build for me?
Where will my resting place be?
2 Has not my hand made all these things,
and so they came into being?”
declare Lord.
originally posted by: Seede
You must realize what you are reading to understand your own belief and not mix the two doctrines. Rabbinic theology is not the same as the doctrine of Jesus.
My understanding does not contradict with the teaching of prophet Isaiah and "the doctrine of Jesus" I stand correct, there is no evil in heaven ( Revelation 12:7-9 ) ( Isaiah 45:7 ) ( Genesis references EVERYTHING was good ) after earth is destroyed ( Isaiah 24 ) ( 2 Peter 3:10 ).New heaven and Earth will be created and no one will remember their past. ( Isaiah 65:17-25 ).
edit on 2-4-2018 by EasternShadow because: (no reason
given)
a reply to: EasternShadow
Perhaps I did not make it clear. Without verses to clutter my explanation let me explain the Nazarene doctrine. There was sin in heaven and that sin was cast out of heaven. There was and shall always be choice of any and all creatures both on this earth and in heaven. How can this be?
Most people confuse the kingdom of heaven as the entire celestial abode. It is not the entire celestial abode of mankind. There is a New Jerusalem which is the kingdom of heaven of which Jesus taught and is guarded with 12 gates. Then there is the new earth and new heaven which is separate from the New Jerusalem city. The city has 12 gates of 3 gates on each of the four sides of the city. These gates guard those who are not allowed into the city but those who have the proper credentials are allowed to leave and enter the city.
The sin that flourishes is not in the kingdom of heaven of New Jerusalem but is outside the city and on the new earth. This sin is the sin that is allowed by the children as they grow into maturity and fulfill their allocated 100 years of life. After the 100 years they are then judged and sentenced the same as all of the human race shall be judged and sentenced. That is with the exception that hell no longer exists except in the lake of celestial fire.
Who are these children? The Nazarene's teach that they are the children who were unfortunate such as those who were aborted or mentally challenged and those who had not the chance to attain the age of accountability. You may not want to delve into this in that manner but I am simply relating that of which Isaiah and Revelation both teach as well as infer. Regardless, both Isaiah and Revelation do teach sin in the heavenly abode.
You are mistaken in that the scriptures do not say that you will not remember your past but only that your mind will not dwell on the past. You will remember as your are judged and you will remember as you leave and enter the Jerusalem gates and Isaiah says that you will remember as you look upon the sin which is in the pit of fire.
Isaiah 66:22-24
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
My understanding does not contradict with the teaching of prophet Isaiah and "the doctrine of Jesus" I stand correct, there is no evil in heaven ( Revelation 12:7-9 ) ( Isaiah 45:7 ) ( Genesis references EVERYTHING was good ) after earth is destroyed ( Isaiah 24 ) ( 2 Peter 3:10 ).New heaven and Earth will be created and no one will remember their past. ( Isaiah 65:17-25 ).
Perhaps I did not make it clear. Without verses to clutter my explanation let me explain the Nazarene doctrine. There was sin in heaven and that sin was cast out of heaven. There was and shall always be choice of any and all creatures both on this earth and in heaven. How can this be?
Most people confuse the kingdom of heaven as the entire celestial abode. It is not the entire celestial abode of mankind. There is a New Jerusalem which is the kingdom of heaven of which Jesus taught and is guarded with 12 gates. Then there is the new earth and new heaven which is separate from the New Jerusalem city. The city has 12 gates of 3 gates on each of the four sides of the city. These gates guard those who are not allowed into the city but those who have the proper credentials are allowed to leave and enter the city.
The sin that flourishes is not in the kingdom of heaven of New Jerusalem but is outside the city and on the new earth. This sin is the sin that is allowed by the children as they grow into maturity and fulfill their allocated 100 years of life. After the 100 years they are then judged and sentenced the same as all of the human race shall be judged and sentenced. That is with the exception that hell no longer exists except in the lake of celestial fire.
Who are these children? The Nazarene's teach that they are the children who were unfortunate such as those who were aborted or mentally challenged and those who had not the chance to attain the age of accountability. You may not want to delve into this in that manner but I am simply relating that of which Isaiah and Revelation both teach as well as infer. Regardless, both Isaiah and Revelation do teach sin in the heavenly abode.
You are mistaken in that the scriptures do not say that you will not remember your past but only that your mind will not dwell on the past. You will remember as your are judged and you will remember as you leave and enter the Jerusalem gates and Isaiah says that you will remember as you look upon the sin which is in the pit of fire.
Isaiah 66:22-24
(22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
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