The Myth of Hell

originally posted by: EasternShadow


If you can't tell who was actually present on the day of Jesus Crucifixion, because none of you were there, just admit it.. There is no point telling lies especially with the word of Jesus.

Do you even aware the punishment of lying with God's word?

We dont know who was there, so what.
We know it happened, there is enough evidence in history.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle


I'm not lying...
And scripture does not give his name but Christ is suspected to be speaking to John...

Lol! John didn't wrote that. But go ahead. Continue to base your faith on anonymous authors. Not that I care.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
You should stop lying about God's word if you are worried about the punishment...

Worry about god's punishment? Who? Me? Lol. That's the most
Ridiculous comment I've heard today.

I'm not the one who claim to know Jesus last words. It was the imposters who claimed to be Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

Blame them for lying to the Christians.

I'm not the one wrote god's evil side. It was your beloved imposters authors who use their mortal judgement to belittle god.

I am not the one who painted God negatively.it was your beloved imposters authors.

originally posted by: 5StarOracle And I wouldn't go around trying to scare people as you pass God's judgement for him...
Who do you think you are?

Yet you call people a fool for not accepting lies?

You should be thankful, that I did point out the inconsistencies in your belief or your guide.

Your ignorant to acknowledge Biblical inconsistencies, accountability and credibitly is your problem, but to call others who did study all this things a fool... Is a problem to me.

I ask you a genuine question about god's judgement and I scare people for that?

If you scare that much then stop deceiving people with god's words.

Why would you be scared anyway? You believe you hold the truth, are you not?

Anyway I rest my case. God is forgiving. Always. Just try not to make god look bad will you?

originally posted by: Raggedyman

We dont know who was there, so what.

That's not true. We know Mary was there. All the 4 gospels agree Mary and other women did in fact was there.

It"s the evident that Mark, Luke, Matthew and John did not witness Jesus crucification and heard Jesus last words. They are not credible.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
We know it happened, there is enough evidence in history.

I am not denying Jesus crucifixion. I do believe it happen.

I am questioning Mark, Luke, Matthew and John credibility and their truthness with regard to Jesus actual words.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
Go pretend to know what you are talking about somewhere else imposter...

On contrary, I do know what I am talking about. Do you?

originally posted by: 5StarOracle

Disciples were at the scene of the crucifixion...

To clarify for you as already stated previously woman behold your son is not Jesus speaking about himself but a disciple one of his followers...
These words prove you to be a blow hard fool with no actual knowledge nor understanding of the word you supposedly studied for years...

When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

Is that your best answer?

You can't even name who this disciple was. You have to resort to this anonymous beloved disciple of Jesus. Why couldn't you come up with a name?

You are just like Luke, Mark, Matthew and John. Or rather someone else who used the apostles' names.

If you can't tell who was actually present on the day of Jesus Crucifixion, because none of you were there, just admit it.. There is no point telling lies especially with the word of Jesus.

Do you even aware the punishment of lying with God's word?

Mary was there.

a reply to: EasternShadow

So they possibly weren't there, doesn't mean that they didn't hear first hand accounts
But whatever floats your boat

I don't believe the bible is the perfect word of God, I do believe it's pretty close

originally posted by: TruthJava

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: silo13

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Logically it just doesn't make sense.

1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.


What do you think?

First of all 'Modern' Christianity is DOWNPLAYING hell fire. They call it 'eternal separation from God' - instead of the hellfire it is.

Second - Sin - is sin. Without Christ? You're going to be toast. It's not a pleasant thought, but it's a truth. There can be no justice without consequences.

Yes, Christ is the message of love and forgiveness. Without it? You will take the consequences of sin.

Isn't it great that all we have to do is believe on Christ - and we bypass all the hellfire crap?

Pretty simple message that.

For God SO LOVED the world, He gave His only begotten son, so whosoever believes in Him will NOT perish, but, have EVERLASTING LIFE!

WOOOHOOO!

Best. Thing. Ever!

I challenge you. Say a person does nothing but good things in their life, helps out the needy, sacrifices their own well being for the comfort of others in a time of need, etc. They are also not a believer in Jesus Christ. Do they "burn forever" in hell?

EDIT: In fact, I present this challenge to anyone who says they are an intelligent religious person. Either you cannot explain it, accept the ideals may be wrong, or you find a way to send a good person to hell, in which is being anti christian. It's an arrogant win-win for me in this scenario. This is something I love presenting to people who believe they know the answers because of the bible saying so.

1) Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV):

- 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
- 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


2) Romans 3:23 teaches "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Ecclesiastes 7:20 adds, "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."


3)The good news of the Bible is that, "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). He knew we would each fail, sin, and lack the ability to enter heaven apart from Him. He died in our place, offering Himself as the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6) that would allow us access to heaven by faith in Him.

4) I didn't make those rules, God did. As such, the Bible clearly explains how "good people" can end up in Hell for eternity, and as Christians - the Bible clearly states that we are to share this gospel message with others in the hope that they too might believe and be saved.

5) hell is NOT a contradiction to the Bible in any way. Yes, Jesus taught that we should love others as ourselves and to forgive each other quickly for wrongs done. But why did He teach those things? Because in the Bible it says:
- "Because God, in Christ, has forgiven us (Ephesians 4:32)
- Jesus told us: “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matthew 6:14-15)

You posting scripture in a reply to me is no different than people doing it with the Quran. Words are just words. And hope as you might that they may be true, I do not fall into things I cannot prove, nor anyone else. Thanks for the reply, however.

a reply to: EasternShadow

All Abrahamic religions are assholes with pride issue. It's not the deed that's matter. It's about conquest and control.

Your opinion of course? How do you come to that conclusion?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Its a god damned racket and no amount of sugar coating changes that. Hell is god's version of holding your family for ransom.

So you admit there is a god and there is a hell? That is a good start. You do realize that all life forms on this planet must at some time die? Common sense right? Instead of simply becoming nothing you now have an opportunity to live forever in a disease free body and in a crime free celestial city. No more death of any sort. No more sickness of any sort. You can build whatever you want and own your property forever on a brand new earth. No more taxes, no more punching a time clock, no more wars, no more police or fire dept. or politicians, no more doctors or shyster lawyers. All of that is long gone and all you have is peace and quiet and all the friends you can want.

Now that does not sound to me like holding your family ransom. Sounds to me like a pretty good deal that God is offering anyone that wants a free pass. Don't know if you have any children but could you offer them (if you did have children) the same deal that God offers? Come on now, you know better than that. You mean to tell me that you would deprive your loved ones a free pass simply because you don't like the guy who offers you the free pass? You hate God and you have not even met Him yet. What kind of a jerk would hate someone without even knowing the guy? Of course it's a gamble. But what do you have to lose? You are a cow chip in the ole barnyard as it is and you know it. Why not give it a try. The ole rabbi said "it can't hurt."

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TzarChasm

Its a god damned racket and no amount of sugar coating changes that. Hell is god's version of holding your family for ransom.

So you admit there is a god and there is a hell? That is a good start. You do realize that all life forms on this planet must at some time die? Common sense right? Instead of simply becoming nothing you now have an opportunity to live forever in a disease free body and in a crime free celestial city. No more death of any sort. No more sickness of any sort. You can build whatever you want and own your property forever on a brand new earth. No more taxes, no more punching a time clock, no more wars, no more police or fire dept. or politicians, no more doctors or shyster lawyers. All of that is long gone and all you have is peace and quiet and all the friends you can want.

Now that does not sound to me like holding your family ransom. Sounds to me like a pretty good deal that God is offering anyone that wants a free pass. Don't know if you have any children but could you offer them (if you did have children) the same deal that God offers? Come on now, you know better than that. You mean to tell me that you would deprive your loved ones a free pass simply because you don't like the guy who offers you the free pass? You hate God and you have not even met Him yet. What kind of a jerk would hate someone without even knowing the guy? Of course it's a gamble. But what do you have to lose? You are a cow chip in the ole barnyard as it is and you know it. Why not give it a try. The ole rabbi said "it can't hurt."

Or it could be the human arrogance in believing there has to be an after life. Coping with the idea that there is no after life is hard for a lot of people because the whole "then life is pointless", which is an idiotic claim that they make.
Were we in heaven or hell before birth? If not, why would we be after death?

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: Lazarus Short

I have to, I didn't see it posted. Carlin just makes too much sense.



Cheers - Dave

George Carlin will answer to God, just like the rest of us. I note that in his later years the fun had gone out of what he did, as he became more and more bitter and sarcastic. Happily, God's Plan includes a way to save even the likes of him.

a reply to: Soulece

TextWere we in heaven or hell before birth? If not, why would we be after death?

There are some people that do believe that we were in the bundle of life as conscious spirits before assigned a physical body but I can't tie that in with Christianity. Jesus' doctrine [through James His brother] was that as each human is conceived, through procreation, that soul is then given a spirit of life. I do realize that this belief varies in many denominations of the Roman organizations but is without variance in the first Jesus movement of the Nazarene's.

In the doctrine of Jesus, no one can be in hell before birth. Each created spirit must be tested, shed its soul in death, and then be judged before it can be sent to hell according to the doctrine of James. Jesus did not teach preexistence of the human spirit but taught that as Adam was formed from the created terrestrial substance, he first was a dead soul and then was given a celestial living spirit. In this it is taught that the soul is procreated from the terrestrial substance but the spirit of everlasting life is created by the wind of the Creator.

You say that - "Or it could be the human arrogance in believing there has to be an after life. Coping with the idea that there is no after life is hard for a lot of people because the whole "then life is pointless", which is an idiotic claim that they make."

I don't see how believing in an afterlife is arrogance by any measure. A good example would be that as I believe that communism exists, does not necessarily mean that I subscribe to that form of life. Modern physics does teach that our understanding of energy has many forms and serves many different purposes. One of those purposes could be the human spirit which is believed by some scientists as a unattached energy source to each human body. Much progress is being made in that model and it could explain the theory that this unattached energy source does survive as bodiless consciousness.

I do not know the truth in this matter but I do see the connection between what we call a spirit of life which is a field of consciousness of some sort and the field of unattached energy that science seems to think is possible. So I guess it remains a religion to some people and a science matter to others, but I don't see as how it is arrogant to believe in a consciousness after physical death.

a reply to: Seede

Jesus did not teach preexistence of the human spirit but taught that as Adam was formed from the created terrestrial substance, he first was a dead soul and then was given a celestial living spirit. In this it is taught that the soul is procreated from the terrestrial substance but the spirit of everlasting life is created by the wind of the Creator.

Where did you come up with any of this from the gospels?

First off.. he didn't even mention Adam, that would be Paul who mentions said mythological character

as for preexistence... "No man goes to heaven except those who came from heaven"

pretty much says it all wouldn't you say?

Reply to: Akragon

Where did you come up with any of this from the gospels? First off.. he didn't even mention Adam, that would be Paul who mentions said mythological character as for preexistence... "No man goes to heaven except those who came from heaven" pretty much says it all wouldn't you say?

You must consider all scriptures that pertain to a topic and not look for only that of which you want the scriptures to say. Jesus did mention through His teachings through John --

John_5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

If then Mose wrote of Adam and Jesus and taught Adam through Luke 31:38, Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 , 1 Timothy 2:13,14, and Jude 1:!4 as well as beloved John, then is it not according to the scriptures? Was not Adam written and confirmed by the apostles through Moses and if you believe Moses then you also believe that Jesus taught of Adam.

But if you don't believe all of the confirmation nor Jesus, then it is not real to you. So be it. That is your choice and I respect the fact that you have your own opinion.

Now as for any person going to heaven. At the time that Jesus walked this earth, no human had ever gone to heaven. That is according to scriptures of the NT.

John_3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

After the death of Christ Jesus the kingdom of heaven was then offered to the human race and established in the third heaven. That would be out of this universe.

a reply to: Seede

If then Mose wrote of Adam and Jesus and taught Adam through Luke 31:38

Well... First, there isn't a 31 chapter in Luke... Though im sure you're referring to the genealogy, which luke didn't get from Jesus... Notice its quite different from the other genealogy in the gospels, which likely also didn't come from Jesus either...

Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22,45 , 1 Timothy 2:13,14,

Paul...

and like luke...Jude only mentions adam in a genealogical sense as well.

Was not Adam written and confirmed by the apostles through Moses and if you believe Moses then you also believe that Jesus taught of Adam.

not so much.... again, Jesus never once mentions adam... who was "apparently" the first man... which would be a pretty strong character to leave out if he was important... clearly he wasn't or he actually didn't exist, which is more likely

Now as for any person going to heaven. At the time that Jesus walked this earth, no human had ever gone to heaven. That is according to scriptures of the NT.

So... In your opinion, Heaven was closed to man before Jesus...No man in history went there...

except Jesus actually states the opposite... No man goes to heaven EXCEPT those that came from heaven... which means everyone... and yes that is My opinion, which is confirmed by other passages as well...

in all honesty that is a pretty bleak outlook on the afterlife for a christian...

Paulian for the most part wouldn't you say? You know, the pharisee... one of those who shut up the doors of heaven as he stated?

After the death of Christ Jesus the kingdom of heaven was then offered to the human race and established in the third heaven. That would be out of this universe.

What would be the point of any sacrifice in the past before Jesus came?

the point of them was to make men clean to this god... Just so people could go to....??

Sheol?

Tartarus?

Hades?

No heaven for anyone.... hmmm

Where did elijah go then, since christians claim he didn't die...

originally posted by: Ursushorribilis
Modern day Christianity preaches of Eternal Hellfire. In my opinion this concept of Hell was created to scare and convert people of different beliefs.

Logically it just doesn't make sense.

1. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.
30 years of adultery, or whatever your vice is, doesn't equate to eternal Hellfire.

2. It's anti-christian. Christianity preaches love and forgiveness. Hellfire is in direct conflict with the entire message of Christianity.


What do you think?

First of all your opinion like mine.
wouldn't amount to a pimple on a nats
ass to the scriptures.
Also if there is a hell it doesn't mean
Christianity fails to demonstrate Gods love .
It in fact defines it.

a reply to: Ursushorribilis

What do I think? I think most of humanity is extremely stupid

What good is a person of sin? They will only ever destroy the desirability of others. Once you interact with a person of sin you are less of a person forever. Why not send worthless filth to eternal hell?

And the idea of forgiving sinners and loving them is ridiculous. That’s how you become more disgusting than them (inferior). If someone wrongs you and causes you any form of suffering you should avoid them forever because you could become a pathetic loser by providing sinners with happiness.

originally posted by: Tyred
a reply to: Ursushorribilis
And the idea of forgiving sinners and loving them is ridiculous. That’s how you become more disgusting than them (inferior).

That's quite a twisted view of the bible's teachings. Sometimes people ask: What does God want from me (or us; there was even a thread here some months ago with that title)? And sometimes the answer is very simple...

The Pharisees showed an unmerciful attitude toward others and were rebuked by Jesus with the words: “Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’” (Mt 9:10-13; 12:1-7; compare Ho 6:6.) He placed mercy among the weightier matters of the Law. (Mt 23:23) As noted, while such mercy could embrace judicial clemency, such as the Pharisees might have opportunity to show, perhaps as members of the Sanhedrin, it was not limited to this. More basically it referred to active manifestation of pity or compassion, deeds of mercy.​—Compare De 15:7-11.

This mercy might be expressed in material giving. But to count with God, it must be properly motivated, not be mere ‘enlightened selfishness.’ (Mt 6:1-4)

Source: Mercy: Insight, Volume 2

Mt 9:11-13

But on seeing this, the Pharisees said to his disciples: “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 Hearing them, he said: “Healthy people do not need a physician, but those who are ill do. 13 Go, then, and learn what this means: ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

Hosea 6:6

6 For in loyal love* [Or “in mercy.”] I delight, not in sacrifice,

And in the knowledge of God, rather than in whole burnt offerings.

Do you really want to display or teach (promote) the same attitude as the Pharisees regarding this subject?


Myth 2: The Wicked Suffer in Hell

a reply to: Thirty6BelowZero


oops

a reply to: Seede

At the time that Jesus walked this earth, no human had ever gone to heaven. That is according to scriptures of the NT.

Time out!!

You realize of course that the OP is about the Myth of Hell..

So..............

IF you don't believe in heaven for those before Jesus... and i don't believe in Hell at all...

where does that leave us?



zzz

a reply to: Akragon

Well... First, there isn't a 31 chapter in Luke... Though im sure you're referring to the genealogy, which luke didn't get from Jesus... Notice its quite different from the other genealogy in the gospels, which likely also didn't come from Jesus either...

Yes you are right. There is no 31st chapter in Luke. The 31 that I typed should have been 3 instead of 31.

Where did elijah go then, since christians claim he didn't die...

All terrestrial life dies at some time and no flesh is allowed in the celestial abode. Scriptures do not say that Elias never died. The terrestrial substance of Elias did return to this earth but it is the spirit of that substance which did not die. Moses and Elias were called up from Sheol according to the bible. At this time, while Jesus was alive on this earth, there was only one place of collective consciousness where the spirits of the human soul were contained. This is shown in the story of Luke 16:19-31. It was after the death of Jesus that His kingdom was offered to the righteous and the righteous in Sheol were resurrected to the kingdom of heaven. Thereafter Sheol was only the abode for the unrighteous.

What would be the point of any sacrifice in the past before Jesus came?

The point of blood sacrifice is not of our covenant of Jesus since the death of the Christ. Prior to that it was only a covenant given between the Creator and the Hebrews. It's primary purpose was to stop the barbaric Hebrews from blood drinking and to deprive them of a portion of their wealth. By this it gradually became an example to the other cultures of humans that it was necessary as a teaching tool to all of the human race. It was James who forbid the blood sacrifice after his brother Jesus' death.