Complete Proof Of Freemasonry Being Satanic?

Originally posted by freudling
What about the text. Does anybody want to repsond to its claims?

What about these excerpts:

Eyewitness to a killing Participant in ritual says he had seen the accused use prank as part of initiation many times ......

Freudling. This particular story has already been extensively covered here on ATS.
There is one thing to take note above all regarding this incident - This was not Freemasonry. The club that these people belonged to was a private club that was not sanctioned or recognised by Freemasonry.
When I first heard this story last year, I was very angry. These fools (and yes the people involved were fools) did something that was bound to be twisted by the media to try and point out that their action was Masonic, which they duly did.
But boys will be boys and unfortunately, you always get some idiots in every group.
Lokk at it this way - if two teachers decide to teach children outside of school hours and use teaching methods not recognised by the school, is the whole education system guilty? Is every other teacher guilty? Of course not.

Originally posted by billmcelligott


Anyway it is a matter of opinion.

It's not a matter of opinion. It is like I said, historical fact.
biblia.com...
The bible isn't subject to opinion of man. If that were the case, we would have billions of different opinions of interpruting the "I am" phrase in the bible. Like I have stated, I believe the bible can be interpruted correctly by a qualified scholar. Masons, like a whole lot of other religions and non-christians can't get that through their thick skulls, or at least the masons I have encountered in this thread since no one has agreed with the bible.

I love how a bunch of geeks who read stuff on the internet think they know more about Freemasonry than actual members. People here think they know the secrets of the 32nd degrees because they read it on the internet. Meanwhile, people who are in the actual organization have no clue, huh? Cmon.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled

Originally posted by billmcelligott


Anyway it is a matter of opinion.

It's not a matter of opinion. It is like I said, historical fact.
biblia.com...

I disagree. The thing is that the Bible can't be corroborated with historical facts. In some places, yes, it can; but in many others is is a matter of dispute. You can't take the stories of the Bible at face value. There is always a deeper meaning, IMO.

The bible isn't subject to opinion of man. If that were the case, we would have billions of different opinions of interpruting the "I am" phrase in the bible.

Ummm, there are many interpretations, just look at how many different demominations of Christianity there are.

Like I have stated, I believe the bible can be interpruted correctly by a qualified scholar.

You are entitled to your beliefs, no one is arguing that. And define "qualified scholar" if you don't mind.

Masons, like a whole lot of other religions and non-christians can't get that through their thick skulls, or at least the masons I have encountered in this thread since no one has agreed with the bible.

Well aren't we an arrogant little guy? What makes you so sure that your interpretation is correct? Who are you to say that anyone who doesn't agree with it is wrong? Dude, you've got to lighten up. The Bible is a book of parables. Look it up.

Any time anything goes wrong, its always irregular Freemasonry, isn't it?

Are you guys trying to send the message that they are the 'real' enemy or something?

Its all these offshoots, who can keep track of them all, why does an honest organization need so many arms, and yet, it can dis-own them on the drop of hat,, when, and only when something bad happens.

The secrets of Freemasonry are not the rituals, or the 'charging' of an Initiate, it is all the things that it has been used for in the past, that current Masons have no clue about, yet will sacrifice their own good name to defend.

Originally posted by The Axeman
I disagree. The thing is that the Bible can't be corroborated with historical facts. In some places, yes, it can; but in many others is is a matter of dispute. You can't take the stories of the Bible at face value. There is always a deeper meaning, IMO.
Ummm, there are many interpretations, just look at how many different demominations of Christianity there are.
You are entitled to your beliefs, no one is arguing that. And define "qualified scholar" if you don't mind.
Well aren't we an arrogant little guy? What makes you so sure that your interpretation is correct? Who are you to say that anyone who doesn't agree with it is wrong? Dude, you've got to lighten up. The Bible is a book of parables. Look it up.

My chruch is a non-denominational and non-affiliated chruch. The prupose of this church is to present the bible doctrine by means of Exegetical(documentation from the original languages), Categorical(comparison of the subjects) and Isagogical(interpretation of the passages in the light of its historical setting) method of teaching the christian scriptures and the presentation of the gospel of the lord Jesus Christ.

Pastor is enter name here, D.Min.


Also, I can't find the verse i'm thinking of, but it says "if it is written, it will be done".
Acts 4:12
Therefore, you are urged to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, as "...the only name given among men where by you must be saved."

I hope that this has answered your question.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled

Originally posted by billmcelligott


Anyway it is a matter of opinion.

It's not a matter of opinion. It is like I said, historical fact.
biblia.com...
The bible isn't subject to opinion of man. If that were the case, we would have billions of different opinions of interpruting the "I am" phrase in the bible. Like I have stated, I believe the bible can be interpruted correctly by a qualified scholar. Masons, like a whole lot of other religions and non-christians can't get that through their thick skulls, or at least the masons I have encountered in this thread since no one has agreed with the bible.

Then from youe line of logic you agree with all
Roman Catholicism,
Eastern Orthodoxy,
Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Churches,
Protestantism, and

Who would give the same answer you have just so rudely tried to give as fact.

I am a Christian and will not have my Faith diminished by you or anyone else. Believe me sir I have no wish to challenge your faith but I read the Bible and if it is the infalable word of God then :

Exodus 3:
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Revelation 1:8
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13
13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”


You have to explain the phrase

'I AM has sent me to you.' "

There is very little room for movement there. Even taking the comments of the pastor that says the original language should be used: 90% of us use English, if these words are not correct , we then have to question how many other words are not correct.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled
I hope that this has answered your question.

No, not really, but I'm getting used to that.

[edit on 2/16/05 by The Axeman]

Trinityman

You have no link to verify your post. Also, you expect me to believe that because a so called Grand Master says X, Y, Z, that it is completely true? Eyewitnesses said they have seen the same ritual over and over for years; Susan James, the wife of the victim, declined a Masonic funeral and did not want the Masons to attend; the shooter was said to be an Old Mason. The excuse is laughable (pulled out the wrong gun) All this, after a preliminary investigation. Some Mason shot another Mason to death, period, unless you have evidence otherwise. Funny how, as the Grand Master is saying it was not in a sanctioned Masonic Lodge and the rest of his hogwash, the article refers to it as Lodge number 493: the actual shooter gives an excuse that he pulled the wrong gun, admitting to the ritual! Lodge number 493...

Originally posted by freudling
Funny how, as the Grand Master is saying it was not in a sanctioned Masonic Lodge and the rest of his hogwash, the article refers to it as Lodge number 493: the actual shooter gives an excuse that he pulled the wrong gun, admitting to the ritual! Lodge number 493...

You must have missed the fact that the ritual in question was that of a "Fellowcraft Club", NOT a degree, NOT affiliated with the lodge other than the fact that they were all Masons and they were using the downstairs of the lodge to have their meetings. It was their own thing, not sanctioned. It was something that the individual members were doing on their own, in other words. If I recall, every last member of that lodge was suspended anyway, and their Charter was revoked. Tragic incident, I feel for the families involved, but it was isolated.

I love how you guys will take one incident and try to mar the whole worldwide organization based on some knucklehead's mistake.

You must have missed the fact that the ritual in question was that of a "Fellowcraft Club", NOT a degree,

Mayo [Senior Decan at the Lodge] said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the SECOND DEGREE within the multilevel Masonic system."

NOT affiliated with the lodge other than the fact that they were all Masons and they were using the downstairs of the lodge to have their meetings.

No, not affliated at all. Cough, cough.


[edit on 16-2-2005 by freudling]

Freudling why dont you stop twisting words and get your facts straight.

Where did I make the error Zombie?

Originally posted by freudling
What about the text. Does anybody want to repsond to its claims?

Masonic Info , a leading web site that minitors these kinds of arguments:
www.nathanhalelodge.com...

The relevant section with regard to this shooting is, in my opinion:

In hindsight, the errors here are enormous and writ large:

That anyone - PARTICULARLY in this day and age - would 'play with guns' is so offensive to the sensibilities that it cries out for explanation. Sadly, there is none. The seemingly unique initiation for this particular club apparently started at a time when firearms were considered quite differently than they are now. (You'll recall that the so-called 'evil bikers' of the 50s & 60s used things like knives and tire chains to wreak vengeance. Today in the US, guns - sometimes a handgun and sometimes a much more powerful semi-automatic weapon - are confiscated within the school environment each and every day.)

That anyone with even a modicum of firearms knowledge would point ANY weapon at another person is abhorrent to legal gun owners everywhere.
(Ed King, this essay's author, is a National Rifle Association Certified rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor. He also holds the NRA's Home Firearms Safety Instructor and Range Safety Officer certifications. He knows a bit about such things....)

That anyone would bring a weapon - offensive or defensive - to a Masonic meeting is against Freemasonry's basic teachings. As explained, this club function was NOT a Masonic meeting in the truest sense, and the need to protect one's self coming to and going from a lodge building (often situated what has become over the years a less desirable part of town) is something that is - sadly - a necessity in some parts of the US.
(Again, on a personal note, the author has known three Masons to have suffered from severe beatings when leaving Masonic meetings at night. One incident occurred in a city parking garage where an elderly Mason - a Grand Lodge officer - was beaten and robbed. The second involved a 'carjacking' as a young Mason attempted to enter his vehicle in the parking lot right behind the Masonic building. It happened at about 8PM on a Fall evening. The third involved a young Brother who was very severely beaten and robbed - nearly killed, in fact - as he left a downtown restaurant where the lodge members had gathered for their annual get-together. The restaurant's owner was a Mason and the place was deemed quite safe. He was, sadly, the victim of a random crime. He was hospitalized for several MONTHS and today has many disabilities as a result.)


Action taken immediately after the incident:
masonicblog.com...

The Masonic Lodge to which the Fellowcraft Club was identified is Southside Lodge 483 here. An outraged Carl T. Fitje, Grand Master of Masons in New York, on learning of the tragedy, took the following actions among others (see):

• Personally spoke earlier to the widow to offer his condolences and help;
• Initiated a fund to assist the widow and her family ;
• Suspended the Charter and all members of South Side Lodge No. 493;
• Impanelled an Investigation Committee of high-ranking Masons and legal experts to determine future action on the matter;
• Reminded all Masons that firearms do not, and never have, played any role in any Masonic Ritual in the State of New York .


www.thedailystar.com...
Part of article: What the family said immediately after the incident. =
Eid has since been charged with second-degree manslaughter.
"I was kind of angry at first, but I realized he was doing what he wanted," James Jr. said. "He wanted to be a Mason."
Alex James said he wasn't entirely sure what happened in the meeting or what was supposed to happen with the initiation rites.
"I guess everybody's angry," Alex James said. "There's got to be a little anger."
Alex James said he questioned Eid's actions. Eid had held a gun license for 53 years, authorities said.
"You'd think he would be smart enough not to point a gun at someone," Alex James said.
www.freemasonrywatch.org... Mrs James’s comment:
"This is so very sudden, and I'm just very upset," she said outside the couple's home in Medford. "To me, it was just a social thing."

Originally posted by freudling
Mayo [Senior Decan at the Lodge] said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the SECOND DEGREE within the multilevel Masonic system."

NOT affiliated with the lodge other than the fact that they were all Masons and they were using the downstairs of the lodge to have their meetings.

No, not affliated at all. Cough, cough.

Yeah, and that reporter is a completely infallible source of information on all things Masonic.

You can see just by hanging out around here for a while how somoeone can take another persons words and twist it to serve their purpose. Some reporters make their whole careers on this very practice. And it WAS NOT a Fellowcraft Degree ritual that was being performed. It was a club made up of members of the lodge on their own time, independant of the Mother Lodge itself.

from: www.masonicinfo.com...
It was there on the news web page I choose for me early morning reading: "Shooting in Masonic Lodge". As the story spread during the day, messages came in - almost all from Masons - asking "What in the heck is this all about? Are guns used ANYWHERE in Masonry?" Several messages also included the exact same comment: "The Antis are going to have a field day with this one!"

News stories were, in the main, written by those totally unfamiliar with Freemasonry. They all began, it seemed, with the tired cliché that it's a secret fraternity. Sorting through them, along with information from New York brethren, the following information emerged: Southside Masonic Lodge in New York State, USA, had a 'Fellowcraft Club'. While at some news stories said that this involved the Second Degree of Freemasonry (called the Fellowcraft Degree), that reporting is totally incorrect.

Throughout the United States, in fact, there are many 'clubs' composed of lodge members whose primary purpose is to provide a 'club' environment within the lodge building. They go under a variety of names: "Square & Compass Club", "Lunchtime Club", "Fellowcraft Club", and sometimes a name specifically related to something local: the "Abanaki Club" in Augusta, Maine comes to mind, and some have clubs named after the lodge which occupies the building such as the Blazing Star Club.

[note: emphasis mine]

So you see, as I said, the only way it was related is that the members of the club were all members of that particular lodge, and they were using the lodge building as their meeting place (naturally).

Let me say that I in no way am trying to defend what happened there. It was tragic, and there is no excuse for it, period. What I am trying to impress on you is that it is an isolated incident, and Freemasonry as a whole is not to blame here the way I see it.

You might see a doctor about that cough, there's some nasty stuff floating around. It might be SARS.

Originally posted by freudling

You must have missed the fact that the ritual in question was that of a "Fellowcraft Club", NOT a degree,

Mayo [Senior Decan at the Lodge] said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the SECOND DEGREE within the multilevel Masonic system."

NOT affiliated with the lodge other than the fact that they were all Masons and they were using the downstairs of the lodge to have their meetings.

No, not affliated at all. Cough, cough.


[edit on 16-2-2005 by freudling]

Freudling, stop being a dork. Other than this incident, I've never even HEARD of anyone bringing a gun to a lodge, real or fake, for ANY purpose. The thought that anyone would play with a gun in ANY kind of masonic ritual, sanctioned by a grand lodge or simply as part of their "fellowship club" is repulsive to myself and just about any other mason I know... so drop the argument. You're grasping at straws..

No, but it does bring up an interesting point.

That a group of entirely Masons could meet together in a Masonic lodge, discuss non-Lodge business, such as finances and politics, play with guns, maybe some escorts (once a year only, promise), and then not be KICKED out of Masonry is what is shown.

It shows that any meeting that isn't publicly advertised can be called an Irregular Lodge meeting (what, none are advertised publicly you say, I am shocked).

Frankly, I personally am much more concerned at what happens at these 'irregular' meetings any way, because as you guys have stated time and time again, the Grand Lodge holds NO jurisdiction in those circumstances.

Actually, I am not concerned at all, but you Masons should be, about what this means for the amount of things Freemasons could be doing outside of Masonry, and you have no clue. Me, being naturally suspicious of people, I'll be OK .

Originally posted by akilles
That a group of entirely Masons could meet together in a Masonic lodge, discuss non-Lodge business, such as finances and politics, play with guns, maybe some escorts (once a year only, promise), and then not be KICKED out of Masonry is what is shown.

Absolutely correct, stupid, ignorant and totally out of order. But the police authority has to decide on the punishment it is a capital matter. The law of the land prevails.

It shows that any meeting that isn't publicly advertised can be called an Irregular Lodge meeting (what, none are advertised publicly you say, I am shocked).

Frankly, I personally am much more concerned at what happens at these 'irregular' meetings any way, because as you guys have stated time and time again, the Grand Lodge holds NO jurisdiction in those circumstances.

Any small group can hold meetings at their own determination, this applies to all art classes, poetry clubs etc. etc. policing them all would be an impossible task. but you knew that when you wrote your snipe.

Actually, I am not concerned at all, but you Masons should be, about what this means for the amount of things Freemasons could be doing outside of Masonry, and you have no clue. Me, being naturally suspicious of people, I'll be OK

.

You are reporting and attacking Freemasonry here , and like a good reporter you will hound and chase your quarry. Thats fine.

Have you at any time stopped to think that your trashing a small group of men, that stood and watched as this man was executed in front of their very eyes. They have to live with that , you do not. For you it is just another tool to use in your campaign.

Take a few minutes and say a prayer for William James, his family.

Say one for the men who stupidly allowed this tragic incident to happen.

Most of all say a prayer to help the idiot who pulled the trigger, live out the rest of the few years he has left, without going stark staring mad.

For if you can not. Then we have to assume that you think this man meant to do this deed, and is deserving of no compassion.

Sorry accident.

[edit on 17-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Mayo [Senior Decan at the Lodge] said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the SECOND DEGREE within the multilevel Masonic system."

NOT affiliated with the lodge other than the fact that they were all Masons and they were using the downstairs of the lodge to have their meetings.

No, not affliated at all. Cough, cough.


[edit on 16-2-2005 by freudling]

Freudling, stop being a dork.

Now I'm a dork for posting documented, negative press against the Masons where a Mason is dead, another is facing criminal charges for murder and the Senior Deacon admits to it being an initiation into the Second Degree within Masonary. The witnesses are dorks too for witnessing this blank firing ritual for years.

Other than this incident, I've never even HEARD of anyone bringing a gun to a lodge, real or fake, for ANY purpose. The thought that anyone would play with a gun in ANY kind of masonic ritual, sanctioned by a grand lodge or simply as part of their "fellowship club" is repulsive to myself and just about any other mason I know... so drop the argument. You're grasping at straws..

Logic: This fact of ritualilstic murder by Masons is repulsive to me and my brothers. Therefore, you are grasping at straws

The information is there, but of course, you Masons have resulted in making personal attacks, once again.

Oh and, the Proof about Freemasonary Being Satanic: not one Mason on here has provided any kind of decent rebuttal.