Complete Proof Of Freemasonry Being Satanic?

Originally posted by freudling
I never said all Freemasons, give me some credit. A poster did say Freemasons may do morally unsound things, so what is your response?

Where? Stalkingwolf said maybe, but he and I are both non-Masons so...

In answer to your question though, yes, it is possible for a Freemason to do immoral things, but if his brothers find out, he could be brought up on Masonic charges and expelled. This does not apply to the fraternity at large. It is, again, and individual issue.

Also, the conditions I posted are just that: conditions. If your society or whatever meets one of those, then it could be called Religion with the conditions I have supplied. It may appear some are contrary to others, but those are what I listed after consulting Websters, Oxford and an international Encyclopedia. From what you guys have told me about Freemasonary, it meets perfectly the 1st condition. In fact, the reason I pointed out the personal belief system is because that is unclear to me. Does freemasonary meet that condition as well? After all, you guys are the ones who said it accepts many different belief systems and even Religions, except atheism and that you must believe in a Supreme Being, whatever it is to YOU. So that is personal. You guys also keep saying personal interpretations and freedom of thought, so personal belief systems are accepted in Freemasonary.

OK let's look at this, shall we? Hey akilles, look! I'm analyzing!

Religion:
1. people’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life

Freemasonry dictates no such thing. Next.

2. a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

Again, Freemasonry does not say what this should be or how a man should observe it. It is, as stated, a personal, not one supplied by or dictated by Masonry. Next.

3. a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

That is so broad, it could encompass MANY things that aren't considered religion, dude. I suppose, in this case, Freemasonry would sort of fit into this definition, but loosely, IMO. Next.

4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by

I don't think this fits either. An obsession is something that takes precedence over all other things, and as we know, a Mason's first duties are to God, his family and his country BEFORE Masonry. Not obsessive. I will concede that it is possible for an INDIVIDUAL to be obsessive about Masonry,but I don't see that as across the board, by any stretch of the imagination. Next.

5. life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church

DEFINITELY not Masonry.

OK, so partial credit on #3, but shot down on the others. Have I spoken irrationally or illogically?

But who cares if it is a Religion, geez.

Apparently, you do.


[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

Axeman or Axsman?

If you are not a mason then why are you speaking about this?

Also, what is laughable is that you make it look as if I made up those conditions, which, of course, I did not. The conditions themselves could be open to dispute. Religion is hard to define simply as I have done, but I tried to have some starting point. What do you have? IMO's, dude.

Ok let's look at this:

2. a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

Again, Freemasonry does not say what this should be or how a man should observe it. It is, as stated, a personal, not one supplied by or dictated by Masonry. Next.

The condition you refer to here doesn't say what it should be or how to observe it either. Freemasonary advocates personal systems of beliefs and divine practice (Divine Illumination and a worship of a Supreme Being)

4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by

The above condition uses a disjunction, meaning obsession is not necessary in order to still meet the condition.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by freudling]

Originally posted by freudling
Axeman or Axsman?

I don't follow. I'm not flaming you, what's your problem?

If you are not a mason then why are you speaking about this?

Because I know something about it. If I didn't feel as though I knew enough to speak on the subject, I wouldn't. I did my homework. You don't think I would want to join a group I hadn't researched, do you? You aren't a Mason either, why are you speaking about it?

Also, what is laughable is that you make it look as if I made up those conditions, which, of course, I did not. The conditions themselves could be open to dispute. Religion is hard to define simply as I have done, but I tried to have some starting point. What do you have? IMO's, dude.

How did I try to make it look like you made it up?

What's wrong with IMO's? That's what your entire argument is based on. In your opinion, Freemasonry is a religion. Congratulations. IMO, it's not. Do we have to sit here and bicker about it? You don't like it, don't join. Simple.

Ok let's look at this:

OK, let's.

2. a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

Again, Freemasonry does not say what this should be or how a man should observe it. It is, as stated, a personal, not one supplied by or dictated by Masonry. Next.

The condition you refer to here doesn't say that. It says, "...Personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine." Freemasonary advocates personal systems of beliefs and divine practice (Divine Illumination and a worship of a Supreme Being)

[edit on 14-2-2005 by freudling]

OK. Try to follow me. Freemasonry does NOT advocate a personal belief. A Freemason's beliefs are his own. Get it? His OWN. NOT Freemasonry's. Freemasonry offers nor advocates any system of belief or practice of worship, therefore it is NOT a religion. It is a F-R-A-T-E-R-N-I-T-Y. Period.


[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

First, I am not "speaking" about Freemanons, I am inquiring, since I don't know much about it. Does Freemasonary allow people to join who do not believe in a Supreme Being and who are not interested in Divine Illumination?

Originally posted by freudling
First, I am not "speaking" about Freemanons, I am inquiring, since I don't know much about it.

No, you are asserting that it is a religion, which it is not.

Does Freemasonary allow people to join who do not believe in a Supreme Being and who are not interested in Divine Illumination?

They ask if you believe in a supreme Being. They do not care if you go to church, which church you go to, how you recognise your Diety, any of that. They do not require that you have an interest in "Divine Illumination". They want good men who want to always work to be better.

So the answer, best I can figure, is no, and yes.

Why are you avoiding my questions? What's with the distortion of my name, and how did I make it look like you made that up? I'm being polite here and doing my best to answer your questions to the best of my ability, please show me the same courtesy.


[edit on 2/14/05 by The Axeman]

So all Masonry asks is that you believe in a Supreme being, and that you put that Supreme being (the one you believe in thanks to Freemasonry, for instance) first in your life, then your family, work, and THEN the Craft, I mean Brotherhood.

And so if you were to be a truly open-minded inquirer who did not have his mind made up about a Supreme Being, but was willing to believe in one, depending on the teachings, what does Freemasonry offer such a person?

Order out of Chaos, meaning creating Chaos is OK, as it will result in Our Order.

Originally posted by dh
It's extraordinary how many busy little bees will come out to defend when their hive is threatened

so are you saying uou would not defend something that was near and dear to your heart when it came under attack?

Originally posted by freudling
First, I am not "speaking" about Freemanons, I am inquiring, since I don't know much about it. Does Freemasonary allow people to join who do not believe in a Supreme Being and who are not interested in Divine Illumination?

Interest in "divine illumintation" is not a requirement to join Freemasonry, only the belief in a supreme being. A man can be as religious or non-religious as he wishes, just as long as he believes in a god.

Originally posted by notmindcontrolled

Originally posted by Masonic Light

No. Neither does Boy Scouts of America, Lions Club, or PTA. We are not a Christian organization, we are a fraternal organization. The Lodge is not a church.

The boys scouts, lions club, pta do not require it's members to believe in a god.

As I write this post I am still in my boy scout uniform from a meeting i just back from and the BSA requires members to belive in a god. In fact, not beliveing in god is grounds to be kicked out. thats why the ACLU sues us any chance they get. because of them a number of troops thats were charted to military bases have been shut down because the troops were charted by a goverment org, thats violates the sepreation of chruch and state. the last part to the scout law is a scout is revernet.

peace

Gentleman,

I'm losing focus on this discussion. Is this thread about defining what Freemasonry is? Or is it exposing some as-yet-unstated evil of Freemasonry?

Because the hypocrisy is astounding. A Roman-Catholic viewpoint targeting a Fraternity with misguided secrecy, violence and sub-morality is by far ridiculous! Do we need to get into the origins of world wide Catholicism here? Don't get me wrong, my intention is not to slander any one religion, I know at its roots Catholicism is pure (please, no offence to any Catholics), but you can't deny that there is a violent past there.

In fact, show me a religion, (and I mean religion, not spiritual discipline) that doesn't have a violent past! By comparison, Freemasons are innocent. One could easily state that this fact is because they are secretive and no one knows of their dealings, but lets dissolve THAT argument before it begins, for there is not fact to confirm nor deny. We might as well discuss whether the back of our HEADS actually exist....

...and if this is about attacking Freemasons for keeping secrets, well I'm a magician - Magicians as a fraternity secretly rule the world, didn't you know?

Any way, my point is, let's keep it real...

[edit on 14-2-2005 by thegreatimposter]

^Thats like a Magician telling me not to believe in Magick, thats what it sounded like to me.

Originally posted by akilles
^Thats like a Magician telling me not to believe in Magick, thats what it sounded like to me.

Actually, as a magician, I WOULD tell you not to believe in Magick!

Originally posted by freudling
First, I am not "speaking" about Freemanons, I am inquiring, since I don't know much about it. Does Freemasonary allow people to join who do not believe in a Supreme Being and who are not interested in Divine Illumination?

... who doesn't believe in a Supreme being? No.

as for the second part, define Divine Illumination? and then I'll know how to answer...

Freemasonry encourages people to be steadfast in the beliefs of their choice, and the only stipulated beliefs are that you believe in a Creator, and a life after this one.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by davidg]

Wow, a Magician telling me not to believe in Magick.

Because you would know, right?

Next you're going to tell me no one believes in it, right? Especially not Elite, who do all sorts of arcane rituals, and surround themselves with what they believe to be powerful symbols?

Yeah, you're right. I spoke out of turn. I know nothing of Magick, only Magic - and I know Magic is a special effect, so it is really very difficult for me to accept Magick at face value.

--And by Magick I am referring to any ritualistic acts aimed at provoking a deity to perform tasks. This I find very difficult to believe. I am open to discuss this further with you if you would like to start a new thread.

What is called paganism I believe to be a side effect of the spread of Roman Catholic Idealism. The single male deity ideal was forced on people, and smaller french villages, whose villagers (or villains) believed in the sacred feminine, Gaia or Mother Nature were forced to either accept the Male God or die.

These believers in the sacred feminine were forced into exile.

There are cathedrals scattered across Europe that secretly housed Hermetic Orders. Built into the very archetecture of these buildings are eight pointed stars and alchemic symbols (thank you art history!).

Any way, I'm a tough sell. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.

[edit on 14-2-2005 by thegreatimposter]

I am not "speaking" about Freemanons,

are freemanons anything like knoghts?

Actually, as a magician, I WOULD tell you not to believe in Magick!

magic is illusion, Magick is consentrated thought patterns some might even say prayer. and no I wouldnt tell you how the illusions work , even the ones I know.

Axeman:

You know well that the tone of my writing I only suggested that Freemasonary is a Religion. Can an actual Mason respond to the conditions I listed. Masons: does it fit one or more of those conditions?

Originally posted by freudling
Religion:
1. people’s beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life

In support of your challenge to Axeman , The Masonic concept is tolerance, every Freemason has the right to own / hold his own truth to his own faith. He is however expected to have a belief in a Supreme being, the nature of the sepreme being is his to contemplate, thus it follows that his Faith holds all human life to be sacred.

2. a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

The system if that is what you wish to call it , is to support each man in the pursuit of his elected Faith.

3. a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

Well that just describes a well organised society, which Freemasonry is.

4. an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by

If a man follows the masonic code of conduct , he will find his ability to rely on his own confidence greatly improved. If you wish to call the pursuit of excellence in ones own conduct obsessive , then why not.

5. life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church

not sure what you mean with this, I presume you are saying that this would be superior conduct to being a Freemason, I would have to agree.

billmcelligott:

Thank you for the rather enlightening post.

Originally posted by thegreatimposter


What is called paganism I believe to be a side effect of the spread of Roman Catholic Idealism. The single male deity ideal was forced on people, and smaller french villages, whose villagers (or villains) believed in the sacred feminine, Gaia or Mother Nature were forced to either accept the Male God or die.

Would be a good theory except for one thing - paganism and the worship of the female predates Christianity by millenia.