Were dinosaurs mentioned in the bible?

Originally posted by sntx

I'm off to argue with a brick wall...

But first, do you think it is absolutely out of the question that those who wrote the bible may have made mistakes? Even if it is the word of this "God" you speak of?

It is possible yes, but it is more likely that the mistakes are in the mind of those reading and interpreting the words without understanding.

Maybe you have made a mistake then? Literature is only how the individual percieves it. Different people take different things from the bible and therefore it cannot be a universal, definitive truth. Much of it is metaphorical - the loaves and fishes story for example - and people's failure to understand this is one of its major flaws.

And if you can find me an example of logic in the bible it would be much appreciated.

"But the greatest example is in Matthew 21:23-22:46, where Jesus stood out as the world’s foremost logician. There were six battles of the mind that day at the temple, and Jesus stood unvanquished. (For a better treatment of this topic see my father’s article Jesus’ Use of the Logical Dilemma.)

First, the Jewish leaders asked Jesus where he received the authority to do what He did. In response, Jesus gave them a logical dilemma which answered their question and yet left them with nothing they could use against Him.

Second, Jesus told three parables with which the Jewish leaders must agree, but in doing so they condemned themselves.

Third, the Pharisees asked Jesus if Roman taxes were lawful, trying to trap Him into angering either the Romans or the common people. But Jesus threw the question back at them in another dilemma exposing their false either or dilemma

Fourth, the liberal, skeptical Sadducees tried to show how absurd the idea of life after death was by presenting the dilemma of a woman who had seven husbands, one after another, and then died herself. Their question: whose wife would she be in the resurrection? Jesus destroyed their faulty reasoning by citing the Old Testament, how marriage plainly did not exist after death. Then came the most masterful move of the millennia. Jesus showed from the passage of the burning bush in Exodus that the logical implication of the tense of the verb is proved that God still was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Therefore there is indeed life after death.

Fifth, the Pharisees came again and tried to stump Jesus with a question Jewish theologians had been debating for a long time: "Which is the greatest commandment of the law?" But again, Jesus showed that upon the first command, and the second after it, all the other commands hung. No Jew could disagree.

Sixth, and last of all, Jesus Himself put forth a dilemma — a dilemma which, if the Jewish leaders answered, they would have to acknowledge who Jesus was. Jesus asked how it could be that David spoke of his son, the Messiah, as his Lord. The only way this could be true was if Christ was both born a son of David but also existed before David — as God the Son." Nathaniel Bluedorn. from: www.christianlogic.com...

These are not examples of logic in the subject matter of the bible. These are stories of the way Jesus apparently used logic: notice there are no details. If I were to say, "Yesterday I made a logical argument", that statement in itself would not be an example of my use of logic.

And the details given only specify that Jesus quoted the Old Testament. I have yet to hear a logical argument for any theories asserted on either testament, Old or New. Belief in the writings of the bible is based entirely on blind faith.

If you had been brought out without any religious input - if nobody had ever told you what to believe and what not to believe - the only way way you could possibly believe the writings of the Bible would be to accept it as truth without a thought as to what it is actually telling you. You simply take its every word as truth without even taking in what it is actually asserting. Approach it logically and maybe you will realise what the Bible is...

Just another fairytale


[edit on 19-2-2005 by CiderGood_HeadacheBad]

My God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Has any one of you christian liars taken the time to look at all the evidence from the other side of the fence. The FACT is that there are animals alive today that fit the descriptions in the bible. That right there already rules out your..."IS, ARE" statements. You know that. Jake, SNTX.....you are pathetic liars.

Not to mention, most christians who are studied unlike either of you, agree that those were not references to dinosaurs. Stop being so foolish that you cannot even admit the chance you are wrong. You are acting like your gods or some crap like that. You can, and are wrong...again.

It is truly a shame that people with the mental capacity of chimps are still not weeded out due to evolution. Then I wouldn't have to deal with you two.

It is kinda funny though watching you tell the same lie over and over again when you are well aware that you are doing it, and also aware that everyone knows you are doing it.

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Ancient European cultures wrote about elves and pixies and hobgoblins. So obviously they must all have co-existed with humans?

Almost all ancient cultures had mythical "monsters". Many could all easily fit the description of a dinosaur, they are just fictional creatures derived from existing ones such as lizards such as komodo dragons, and exaggerated.

The strawman attack.
Set up a straw man, and then knock him down as if he had something to do with the topic.

In the area where the Navajo live, they also have dinosaur rock art, dinosaur foot prints and human foot prints in rock, plus all the other commonalities I showed you in my link , with sumeria and the bible......which includes those same dinosaurs

Originally posted by Seapeople
My God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calling on the father for help could be your first step onto the right path.

Has any one of you christian liars taken the time to look at all the evidence from the other side of the fence.

This is a good example of one of the mistakes most supporters of evolution make. There is no fence that separates evidence. We all have the same "pile" of evidence to work with. Presuppositions regarding origins determine how that evidence is interpreted.

The FACT is that there are animals alive today that fit the descriptions in the bible. That right there already rules out your..."IS, ARE" statements. You know that. Jake, SNTX.....you are pathetic liars.

I will have to remember that using the word fact in all caps lends your conjecture an instant sheen of credibility. This gem can be added to the keep repeating unfounded accusations technique. When used in conjunction they still are of no effect.

Not to mention, most christians who are studied unlike either of you, agree that those were not references to dinosaurs. Stop being so foolish that you cannot even admit the chance you are wrong.

Christians that agree with you are studied and Christians that disagree are foolish. It sounds like you thought very carefully about that opinion before you typed it out.
Christians that are willing to change the word of God to fit in with the teachings of man are willing to undermine biblical authority. In my opinion that is the foolish mistake.

You are acting like your gods or some crap like that.

This is another well put and powerful argument. I'm going to just have to speculate that you are cleverly providing examples of how not to argue in this latest post.

Did you mean the word your to be you're or are you trying to say that God owns me. If it is the latter you are absolutely correct.

You can, and are wrong...again.

I would suggest that if you want to pursue the endless repetition of baseless accusations technique that you at least try to form sentences that make sense.

It is truly a shame that people with the mental capacity of chimps are still not weeded out due to evolution.

Darn, I guess evolution doesn't work the way it is supposed to. Oh wait, I forgot it probably just needs a few billion more years to eliminate the simpletons.

Then I wouldn't have to deal with you two.

You don't have to do anything. God is so loving that he granted you free will. Based on the way you are "dealing" I'd be willing to bet your talents lie elsewhere.

It is kinda funny though watching you tell the same lie over and over again when you are well aware that you are doing it, and also aware that everyone knows you are doing it.

Be careful Seapeople, your inner monologue is subconsciously slipping out of your fingers and into your posts.


Steve




[edit on 2/20/0505 by sntx]

SNTX,

Answer this question, with a yes or no.

Is it a fact that the bible talks about the dinosaurs?


Oh and PS,

I never siad there were two piles of evidence. I said LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE FROM THE OTHER SIDE. Which of course you dont. Being an idiot seems to amuse you. Well, anyway, please answer the question...try to do it without lying by the way. Compulsive liars do seem to often be chrsitians.


[edit on 2/20/2005 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by sntx

Christians that are willing to change the word of God to fit in with the teachings of man are willing to undermine biblical authority. In my opinion that is the foolish mistake.

The bible is not the word of God. It was written by men. It is the word of men. Even if you believe it is the word of God, its original authors would have written it the way they interpreted it, therefore there is a considerably large possibility that they made mistakes, exaggerated, or even lied, to suit the message they - mere mortals - wanted to put forward.

To state that biblical authority is undermined by people who interpret it differently is a contradiction. It was originally an interpretation. The bible is not an authority on anything, it is a collection of opinions.

Originally posted by Seapeople
SNTX,

Answer this question, with a yes or no.

Is it a fact that the bible talks about the dinosaurs?

I can understand why you would want me to limit my answers to your questions. Fortunately you have no authority over me and I can do better than a one word answer. I'll quote my first post in this thread:

Originally posted by sntx
There are many references to dinosaurs in scripture.

The Hebrew word commonly translated ‘dragon’ in the KJV (Hebrew: tan, tannin, tannim, tannoth) appears in the Old Testament some 30 times. There are passages in the Bible about ‘dragons’ that lived on the land: ‘he [Nebuchadnezzar] has swallowed me like a dragon’ (Jer. 51:34), ‘the dragons of the wilderness’ (Mal. 1:3). Many Biblical creationists believe that in many contexts these could refer to what we now call dinosaurs. Indeed, Strong’s Concordance lists ‘dinosaur’ as one of the meanings of tannin/m.

In Genesis 1:21, the Bible says: ‘And God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind.’ The Hebrew word here for ‘sea monsters’ (‘whales’ in KJV) is the word translated elsewhere as ‘dragon’ (Hebrew: tannin). So, in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, God may be describing the great sea dragons (sea-dwelling dinosaur-type animals) He created.

There are other Bible passages about dragons that lived in the sea: ‘the dragons in the waters’ (Psalm 74:13), ‘and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea’ (Isa. 27:1). Though the word ‘dinosaur’ strictly refers to animals that lived on the land, the sea reptiles and fl ying reptiles are often grouped with the dinosaurs. The sea-dragons could have included dinosaur-type animals such as the Mosasaurus

Job 41 describes a great animal that lived in the sea, Leviathan. This ‘dragon’ may have been something like the mighty 55-foot (17 m) long Kronosaurus,22 or the 82-foot (25 m) long Liopleurodon.
There is also mention of a flying serpent in the Bible: the ‘fiery flying serpent’ (Isa. 30:6). This could be a reference to one of the pterodactyls, which are popularly thought of as flying dinosaurs, such as the Pteranodon, Rhamphorhynchus or Ornithocheirus.

Not long after the Flood, God was showing a man called Job how great He
was as Creator, by reminding Job of the largest land animal He had made:
‘Behold now behemoth, which I made with you; he eats grass like an ox. See now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moves his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are like tubes of bronze; his limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God: his maker brings near his sword’ (Job 40:15–19). The phrase ‘chief of the ways of God’ suggests this was the largest land animal God had made. So what kind of animal was ‘behemoth’?
Bible translators, not being sure what this beast was, often transliterated
the Hebrew, and thus the word behemoth (e.g. KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV).
However, in many Bible commentaries and Bible footnotes, ‘behemoth’ is said to be ‘possibly the hippopotamus or elephant.’24 Some Bible versions actually translate ‘behemoth’ this way.25 Besides the fact that the elephant and hippo were not the largest land animals God made (some of the dinosaurs far eclipsed these), this description does not make
sense, since the tail of behemoth is com pared to the large cedar tree
(verse 17). Now an elephant’s tiny tail (or a hippo’s tail that looks like a flap of skin!) is quite unlike a cedar tree! Clearly the elephant and the hippo could not possibly be ‘behemoth.’ No living creature comes close to this description. However, behemoth is very like Brachiosaurus, one of the large dinosaurs.

The whole article is at: www.answersingenesis.org.../radio/pdf/whathappenedtodinos.pdf

More Dinosaur info: www.answersingenesis.org...

Originally posted by Seapeople

Oh and PS,

I never siad there were two piles of evidence. I said LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

You're correct, that is what you said, my mistake.

Which of course you dont.

I have been a secular humanist for most of my life. I am very familiar with both sides, in fact more familiar with the "other" side.

Being an idiot seems to amuse you. Well, anyway, please answer the question...try to do it without lying by the way. Compulsive liars do seem to often be chrsitians.

It's a shame that ad hominem attacks are so harmful to credibility because your posts are full of them.


Steve


[edit on 2/20/0505 by sntx]

Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad
Ancient European cultures wrote about elves and pixies and hobgoblins. So obviously they must all have co-existed with humans?

Almost all ancient cultures had mythical "monsters". Many could all easily fit the description of a dinosaur, they are just fictional creatures derived from existing ones such as lizards such as komodo dragons, and exaggerated.

The strawman attack.
Set up a straw man, and then knock him down as if he had something to do with the topic.

In the area where the Navajo live, they also have dinosaur rock art, dinosaur foot prints and human foot prints in rock, plus all the other commonalities I showed you in my link , with sumeria and the bible......which includes those same dinosaurs

Those examples of "dinosaur art" and other similar examples are considered fakes by many distinguished archaeologists. Witnesses have testified to having worked on the production of fake dinosaur artefacts in Peru - they were intended to attract tourism and international interest to the region. The other cases are most probably of similar origins.

My original arguments were simply intended to give examples of other mythical creatures whose existance has not been proved, let alone co-existance with humans. Do you think it is beyond the imagination of ancient peoples to exaggerate the characteristics of existing animals to create a legendary monster, which may remind some people today of what we assume dinosaurs looked like?

Anyone notice that SNTX won't answer the question?

You infuriate Seapeople with your ambiguous and non-sensical arguments, bait him into insulting and then pick out all his little mistakes, without even addressing the issues he puts forward.

Meanwhile you simply ignore my statements which contradict yours. Shoulod I take this to mean that you agree with me?

Originally posted by Seapeople
It is truly a shame that people with the mental capacity of chimps are still not weeded out due to evolution. Then I wouldn't have to deal with you Y ou don't have patience for the christian perspective and apparently from the yourtwo.

It is kinda funny though watching you tell the same lie over and over again when you are well aware that you are doing it, and also aware that everyone knows you are doing it.

As I have conversed with you on other issues and read your answers I have a question. You loathe christians and if we were to disappear off the face of the earth that would be OK with you. And am I going to far to say that if we were rounded up and killed as part of a solution to building a more united world, would you also be in favor of this?

Originally posted by Seapeople
Anyone notice that SNTX won't answer the question?

Seapeople, logic and religion don't mix, don't expect an answer from him in any form other than irrelevant bible verses that prove nothing. This guy clearly doesn't know how to see things from anyone else's point of view. I wonder if for the sake of argument he could assume for just a moment that there is no "God"?

Don't let him drag you down, he's really hilarious if you detach yourself from reality for a while.

I do not loathe christians. I loathe being told by people that I am going to hell. You know that you are not to judge others. I also loathe intentional stupidity because of fear of consequences. I am truly glad that organized christianity is hitting a stone wall in the last two centuries. Eventually jerks like Pat Robertson wont be able to purchase diamond minds because you christians are stupid enough to believe him.

If it bothers you that I say what others are afraid to, then either grow a brain, or ignore it.

Dbrant. Question for you. If you answer this honestly, then you are not like the rest. For some strange reason, I don't think you are like the rest. It must have been an impression you gave me somewhere else.

Is it a fact that it was dinosaurs mentioned in the bible, or is it just speculation? Answer this regardless of your beliefs as to whether or not it was dinosaurs. Is it a fact?

Originally posted by Seapeople
Anyone notice that SNTX won't answer the question?

Did you notice that I did answer the question. I have answered the question more than once in this very thread. I pointed that out by quoting my very first post in this tread. I'll give you a hint in case you still can't find the answer. It is the first sentence of my first post in this thread.

Steve

Just for kicks SNTX, answer it again. Yes or No...it is that simple. A yes or no question.

Is it a fact that those bible verses were references to dinosaurs?

And while you're at it, any thoughts on what I've said above? If not I claim victory...

Originally posted by CiderGood_HeadacheBad

You infuriate Seapeople with your ambiguous and non-sensical arguments, bait him into insulting and then pick out all his little mistakes, without even addressing the issues he puts forward.

Thank you for letting me know that I am responsible for Seapeoples insulting attitude. I reject that responsibility and give it back to him/her.

Meanwhile you simply ignore my statements which contradict yours.

Since I have previously answered those statements there is no need for me to keep repeating myself. Please refer to previous posts if you have forgotten.

Shoulod I take this to mean that you agree with me?

You can take it however you wish, but doing so would be an assumption that is not in the best interest of understanding.


Steve

Still,

Steve does not answer the question. Dbrandt?

Originally posted by Seapeople
Just for kicks SNTX, answer it again. Yes or No...it is that simple. A yes or no question.

Is it a fact that those bible verses were references to dinosaurs?

Are you admitting that you do not understand the first sentence of my first post? I find it hard to believe that this is the case. If, so there is no point in answering any question you might pose.

Steve

Buddy, steve....avoiding something. You try to change the subject every time. Just for kicks SNTX. Answer it again, without qualifications.

It is a yes or no question. Is it a fact, that dinosaurs are metnioned in the bible?