1997 Phoenix Lights UFO - Solved - Day & Night Videos Superimposed - Ergo: FLARES!

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: Scrubdog
You're entitled to a different opinion than Robert Schaeffer of course, but I noticed you didn't even address the "Big hit" Schaeffer mentioned, the Roswell slides. And yes someone who thinks contrails are chemtrails does have credibility issues whether you recognize it or not. If someone can't rationally analyze phenomena which CAN be well analyzed like contrails, how does this not reflect on their ability to analyze on other phenomena which are more difficult to analyze, like UFOs?

Rich is a personal friend. He helped quite a bit in the ideas that went into the work linked below. You might actually enjoy it, shameless plug.

I don't espouse any credence to contrails, and have no idea why he does. I'll ask.

But, I do respect his research on UFOs and am not willing to throw everything out based upon divergent weird stuff. I'm just not. I understand why you would, I'm not willing to write him off over it.

I'm more weirded out (and I've told him this) that he'll share the stage with damn near anyone. The person speaking before him can be bat sht insane and yet he gets up and does his talk, hard for me to see how he does it. Still, his work on what disclosure would look like, and the problems it would cause, existential ones, even - that's some of his best work to date.

Don't even get me started on his politics. That's off limits to us.

I still like the guy. He's alright, and he's contributed quite a bit.

I'm not mad or anything, just a different opinion.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Hi, i was naming dolan just as a researcher off the top of my head. I was replying to an earlier comment that i shouldnt just believe the research of some ufologist who says somethimg happened.
Thats a discredit to some of these guys, there are as you say guys who perpetuate the myth and downright make crap up. But theres also a sellect group who i take as genuine guys.
Hey if we all had the same oppinion the world would be a very boring place.

I also believe liverpool fc will wil the league some time soon, plenty scoff at that too.

a reply to: Rhombus101

Lets focus on what we think of the events that unfolded that night guys, listen to each others views, without deconstructing each others beliefs. Else this is gona be another closed thread if it doesnt stay on track.

originally posted by: Kromlech
Military flares gradually fall to the ground. The phoenix lights were stationary the entire time..

The flares were not stationary the entire time. It was dark and you don't have a point of reference as the night and day videos superimposed show that the flares did indeed drop one at time behind the various peaks. Time to dig yourself and the following from Wikipedia may be of help. And I've always said that the alleged triangular "craft" was just a formation of jets. People just love to delude themselves.

First event[edit]
The first event — the "V", which appeared over northern Arizona and gradually traveled south over nearly the entire length of the state, eventually passing south of Tucson — was the apparently "wedge-shaped" object reported by then-Governor Symington and many others. This event started at about 20:15 MST over the Prescott area, and was seen south of Tucson by about 20:45 MST.

Proponents of two separate events propose that the first event still has no provable explanation, but that some evidence exists that the lights were in fact airplanes. According to an article by reporter Janet Gonzales that appeared in the Phoenix New Times, videotape of the v shape shows the lights moving as separate entities, not as a single object; a phenomenon known as illusory contours can cause the human eye to see unconnected lines or dots as forming a single shape.

Mitch Stanley, an amateur astronomer, observed high altitude lights flying in formation using a Dobsonian telescope giving 43× magnification. After observing the lights, he told his mother, who was present at the time, that the lights were aircraft.[24] According to Stanley, the lights were quite clearly individual airplanes; a companion who was with him recalled asking Stanley at the time what the lights were, and he said, "Planes". When Stanley first gave an account of his observation at the Discovery Channel Town Hall Meeting with all the witnesses there he was shouted down in his assertion that what he saw was what other witnesses saw. Some have claimed that Stanley was seeing Maryland Air National Guard jets flying in formation during a routine training mission at the Barry M. Goldwater Air Force Range south of Phoenix.

Second event[edit]
The second event was the set of nine lights appearing to "hover" over the city of Phoenix at around 10 pm (22:00 MST). The second event has been more thoroughly covered by the media, due in part to the numerous video images taken of the lights. This was also observed by numerous people who might have thought they were seeing the same lights as those reported earlier.[citation needed]

The U.S. Air Force explained the second event as slow-falling, long-burning LUU-2B/B illumination flares dropped by a flight of four A-10 Warthog aircraft on a training exercise at the Barry Goldwater Range at Luke Air Force Base. According to this explanation, the flares would have been visible in Phoenix, and they would have appeared to hover due to rising heat from the burning flares creating a "balloon" effect on their parachutes, slowing the descent. The lights then appeared to wink out as they fell behind the Sierra Estrella, a mountain range to the southwest of Phoenix.[25]

A Maryland Air National Guard pilot, Lt. Col. Ed Jones, responding to a March 2007 media query, confirmed that he had flown one of the aircraft in the formation that dropped flares on the night in question.[25] The squadron to which he belonged was in fact at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona on a training exercise at the time and flew training sorties to the Barry Goldwater Range on the night in question, according to the Maryland Air National Guard. A history of the Maryland Air National Guard published in 2000 asserted that the squadron, the 104th Fighter Squadron, was responsible for the incident.[26] The first reports that members of the Maryland Air National Guard were responsible for the incident were published in The Arizona Republic newspaper in July 1997.[27]

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: InhaleExhale

Maybe debunked for you, most certainly not debunked for me. Not even close.

But we both have our view points dont we, great to have our own oppinions, some of us will never see eye to eye on this subject.

InhaleExhale's brain is working just fine. Can't say the same for yours. People such as you are what keep Stanton Friedman laughing all the way to the bank.

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: Rhombus101

Maybe debunked for you, most certainly not debunked for me. Not even close.

Why not research it then, try and find relevant things that may influence a large population into a certain mindset like a year before.

im not even gona waste my time going into more detail the case is common knowledge, some people have blinkers on, no amount of evidence will take their thought process from what they have been told is possible in thier lifetime.

Like I said research it, its not common knowledge, the incident might be known about but everything surrounding it is certainly not.

The evidence is there and explains both events that night, sifting through it is what many don't do and just follow what another UFO researchers tell them using the tactics like only showing witness testimony that say they saw a large V shaped craft and leave out other witness testimony that say its something mundane like planes and make sure to keep clear of those testimonies because they are concluded to be such because those witnesses were using equipment to view the sky.

2 links in this thread that allow you to follow the trails of evidence and make your own conclusions based of the evidence not what a YouTube video or some other UFOlogist has concluded.

You shouldn't bother. Some people are not open to intelligence. This forum is full of them.

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: InhaleExhale

The incident is common knowledge to the kind of people that are pro ufo and frequent the ufo forum here on ats, it is one of the biggest high profile casses in ufology.
I have very good knowledge of the ufo phenomena including this case and am convinced it wasnt flares.
Ufo does not neccesarily mean alien as we know, the usa government may have very large black project aircraft.
There is a company in the usa that has patents and is working on huge V shaped lifting body craft that go into the upper atmosphere, to be used as transporters, that could be one explanation.

You have no knowledge of the UFO phenomenon, good or otherwise.

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: InhaleExhale

I also dont need your links to to investigate the case, and to not simply take the work of some ufologist as incorrect.
Some of these guys are very well respected and serious researchers, such as Richard Dolan.
I will take his oppinion and research and the witness testimony of police officers on duty that night over an attempt to debunk it as flares.

Richard Dolan? You gotta be kidding. All he does is collate data, maybe edit it a little here and there but all he does is work with someone else's data that doesn't mean a hill of beans in the long run.

Years ago, when he first started out I communicated with him and pointed out that the photo that he was using on his nascent website was not what he thought it was. He had the famous photo of the capitol with alleged UFOs in the sky behind the dome (below) and I told him that the allege "UFOs" were really street lamp reflections. He denied they were and I was through with him. He's a believer. Believers don't have open, inquisitive minds.

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: InhaleExhale

There is a company in the usa that has patents and is working on huge V shaped lifting body craft that go into the upper atmosphere, to be used as transporters, that could be one explanation.

Patents how many patents are registered for perpetual motion machines etc

originally posted by: Rhombus101
a reply to: Rhombus101

Lets focus on what we think of the events that unfolded that night guys, listen to each others views, without deconstructing each others beliefs. Else this is gona be another closed thread if it doesnt stay on track.

closed if it doesn't stay on track?


The thread is more about how showing it was flares for the 2 nd event that dropped behind mountain range than what we think of the events that unfolded that night.

Then move on, discuss the lights, instead of focussing on my research skills lol.

So your interpretation of asking 1 simple question about what you posted is forcing you to believe what I do and focusing on your research skills.

You sir/madam are derailing the thread by deflecting an on topic question based on what you posted.

Your kinda not getting the point are you, im not interested in arguing semantics with you, and dont need to win this discussion with you to feel secure in my outcome.

I get the point, you either cant read or are trolling.

I am not arguing anything and like I said before no spitting match that you seem to interpret, there is no winning this discussion because a discussion is not a competition the discussion consists of a question based on your postings.

After how posts back and forth .....


Can you answer the question I asked?

Which event wasn't flares in your opinion, the first or second?

I quoted the reason why I ask this question,

I will quote it again, your words

I have very good knowledge of the ufo phenomena including this case and am convinced it wasnt flares.

So like you say lets focus on the topic at hand and stop derailing or deflecting with nonsense that you think there is some sort competition or someone is forcing to believe something.

a reply to: Lathroper

Wow, your resorting to personal insults, why do take this discussion so personaly?

Realy surprising to see you spit your dummy out like this.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Still focused on me lol, the thread is about the phoenix lights bud, try to keep up eh.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Why do you have this agressive tone to your messages, feel the need to challenge and pick appart what i post? did
i do something to offend you?

a reply to: Rhombus101

Actualy lathroper and inhalexhale, im gona stop posting dellete account and just read the posts rather than offer my oppinion, this isnt what i came on here for.
Didnt expect this behaviour in my first week of posting on this site.

You shouldn't bother. Some people are not open to intelligence. This forum is full of them.

Hmm.. aren't you the same guy that keeps coming back bleating about your Stanton hate.. and declaring how everything is a hoax.. and then disappear once your identity is revealed.. and show up again many months later? Yea.. I think that's you.

Not to feed your arrogant posts, but starting new threads (and in fact, twice in 3 days), to state the OBVIOUS is pointless. You don't think almost all here don't already KNOW that the flares over Phoenix were flares?

The flares strengthen the case that the military knew a major sighting was taking place, and they were doing what they did in case it actually flew over Phoenix proper. It also accomplished what they hoped, creating additional confusion to the event.

As far as the actual object - believe what you want, but I don't think a simple flight of planes (which is not at all uncommon), would cause thousands of people, over several hours, to think they saw a giant V shaped UFO. Nor do I think the military would fly a black project aircraft over so many public areas. That is strengthened by fact they felt the need to drop a V shaped flare pattern for the first and ONLY time in the sight of Phoenix. On that one day.. when a V shaped craft was generating hundreds of calls from people wondering what the hell they were looking at.

Try not to treat people here as idiots.. "gawrsh, those were flares, guhuh!!!" Ya think?

originally posted by: fleabit
As far as the actual object - believe what you want, but I don't think a simple flight of planes (which is not at all uncommon), would cause thousands of people, over several hours, to think they saw a giant V shaped UFO.

I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't, and don't forget, some people reported that it was planes, so not everyone thought it was a V-shaped UFO. What was probably unusual that night was so many people looking at the sky to view the comet, so a lot of people not used to seeing regular events were out looking that night because of that.

NVM

The point I can't shake is that the sighting 'tracked' hundreds of miles across the state iirc. As I mentioned before...I DO think there were flares...but flares also have a purpose, to illuminate the sky and make things visible.

originally posted by: KenTodd
The point I can't shake is that the sighting 'tracked' hundreds of miles across the state iirc. As I mentioned before...I DO think there were flares...but flares also have a purpose, to illuminate the sky and make things visible.

You're probably the millionth person to muddle up the 8:30 PM event with the 10 PM event, though the media muddled it up so badly that's somewhat understandable.

Yes the triangle flew across the state as seen between 8:30-8:45 and the flares just dropped slowly toward the ground as seen around 10 PM. The opening post video provides some information about both events, you should watch it.

one point to a poster who said earth is not well hidden he is incorrect .
Earth ( our solar system is way out in the sticks in a outer arm of the galaxy near the very end of the arm .
The effect is the next nearest star is almost 5 light years and a 100 light year circle the stars in it can still be counted in 3 digets 100 - 999 .

Some areas the stars are so close less then a light year and MILLIONS in the same size area .

The thing is if there are aliens and they are searching for planets with life sticking to the clusters would be the best bet . between 250 billion and 350 billion stars in our med sized Galaxy yes we are very well hidden .

Think of that number now build a super ship and visit just ONE star each day ( yea not much studying doing it lots of fly bys .

ok so one star a day these aliens would have been doing this for 116,666,666 YEARS that is over 11 MILLION years . To have found earth apply odds 6 millions years doing it 50% chance they found earth ( teh odds of that find being in the last 20,000 years Beyond my math skills .

Aliens may be out there they may be looking ( and LOOKING and LOOKING )
what you worried they will track our TV and radio ?? lol well 120 year circle out side that nada and out of the 120 circle only maybe 30 light years in which they may be strong enough to find .

Give TV and Radio a 1000 years the odds start going up a bit ( still not much as teh Galaxy is 120,000 light years across .
You know I do think we have not been found by aliens ( You dont know how much I dreaded saying that )
does not matter if there are 1000s of aliens we are alone in a galaxy full of people earth is the kid sitting in the corner wishing someone would talk to him .