Bigelow, UFOs, MUFON and ‘DeLonge’ Road to AATIP

a reply to: Kevin2024

McKinnon found some very interesting-looking stuff, but I suggest only looking at what he originally claimed and not anything more recent, particularly nothing after the criminal case. I think he got a bit too wrapped up in the whole Greer disclosure mythos mess, and I wouldn't be shocked if there was some backroom dealing going on with his acquittal either (ie. "all this goes away if you'll play along with our narrative").

a reply to: Kevin2024

I don't know McKinnon--beyond what I've read about him--to render an opinion on the veracity of his claims.

But I do know Elizondo.

originally posted by: TheTruthRocks
a reply to: Kevin2024

I don't know McKinnon--beyond what I've read about him--to render an opinion on the veracity of his claims.

But I do know Elizondo.

It's always fascinating when someone has a personal contact / past / current relationship.

originally posted by: ShadeWolf
a reply to: Kevin2024

McKinnon found some very interesting-looking stuff, but I suggest only looking at what he originally claimed and not anything more recent, particularly nothing after the criminal case. I think he got a bit too wrapped up in the whole Greer disclosure mythos mess, and I wouldn't be shocked if there was some backroom dealing going on with his acquittal either (ie. "all this goes away if you'll play along with our narrative").

I think it far more likely they set a trap for him, or he wildly misunderstood what he was looking at,
or it was "code" for other things.

Kev

originally posted by: Kevin2024
a reply to: mirageman

Do you have a theory?

I'm out of my depth on this question.

You and others are master spook hunters / documenters, I just sit on the sidelines
and greatly appreciate your work.

I'm more of a metaphysics / pseudoscience spitballer guy, as you know.

BTW, question, do you see much of a change since the Kenneth Arnold days
to this day? Any patterns?

Let's discount the TDL nonsense for a moment.

Thanks for your opinion.

Kev

There are actual spy hunters, counter intelligence people, who look for spies and agent provocateurs all day every day. It's their job and they are very good at it. Yet most of the professional spies are caught only after years of being active, if at all. So if someone tells you they've outed US IC people via the internet, it's wise to take it with very big grain of salt.

a reply to: Sublant

I don't disagree.

But when former, known, intelligence employees, generally after they "retire"
(do these folks ever really retire?) go on like a strutting, insane monkey about
nonsense, then it's certainly valid to wonder if they were (and still are) involved
with psychological manipulation.

Also, some few cases are really well documented, with credible witnesses..
you aren't saying that the Bennewitz case never happened, for example,
are you?

Kev

Oh what a wicked web we weave when first we practice to deceive. And the 2nd and 3rd time too. 4th time's the charm maybe with TTSA?

Does the past inform the present? We all know, generally speaking, the answer to that question is Yes.

If you are invested with some hope or interest that TTSA might be some spear-tip of Disclosure, then you owe it to yourself to dig into some history. While I don't totally agree with all the conclusions of the RU team (who were/are also ATS members) they did some fantastic detective work upon which to form your own conclusions.

I would start with the following link to get your bearings and then dig into the emails linked at bottom of this post.

Project Serpo Uncovered

Can't get that link to work, here ya' go: www.realityuncovered.net...

From the first page (Bolding emphasis mine) :

Introduction - Just The Facts, Please

All of the information presented to Victor Martinez and Bill Ryan by "Request Anonymous" came in fact from Richard C. Doty. Martinez may have suspected Doty's involvement, but Bill Ryan knew from the very start that he was getting the Serpo material directly from the former AFOSI security guard. Doty has continuously denied having any involvement in the story, despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. In addition to Doty, Martinez and Ryan, the behind the scenes "Team of Five" who collaborated extensively on the project is completed by Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green - a former analyst with the CIA, and physicist Dr. Harold (Hal) E. Puthoff.

The material to follow will show that Serpo was not a lone-gunman operation, but a collaboration between three friends, who between them already had many years experience of scamming the UFO community.

Reality Uncovered Project Serpo Investigation - Emails

originally posted by: Sublant Yet most of the professional spies are caught only after years of being active, if at all. So if someone tells you they've outed US IC people via the internet, it's wise to take it with very big grain of salt.

What about when they basically out themselves through...incompetence? See my post above.

originally posted by: TheTruthRocks
a reply to: Kevin2024

I don't know McKinnon--beyond what I've read about him--to render an opinion on the veracity of his claims.

But I do know Elizondo.

Fascinating. Can you elaborate?

originally posted by: TheTruthRocks
The "evidence" Lou Elizondo claims to have seen is a single report he found in a classified records system before he retired. That report was created as a joke, and Lou thought it was genuine reporting.

Also keep in mind that his position in the U.S. DoD's Advanced Aviation Threat Identification Program (AATIP) had nothing to do with the study of so-called alien technology. It was focused on what our adversaries were cooking up and how we could detect, identify, and counter the threats. Nothing more.

Lou and his pals are seeing dollar signs. They're charging $$ for speaking engagements and selling hats and tee shirts. They will make a lot of money before this blows over.

That is the truth.

Also can you elaborate on the "joke report" that you say Elizondo tee'd off on? Thanks!!

a reply to: The GUT

buoyant plasma sounds like plasma blooms.

i think plasma blooms don't create black flying triangles due to refraction.

i think if the rendelshem account is real they ran into something DoD related using plasma for a specific purpose. ever notice "ufos" have plasma, radio frequencies, magnetic fields in common?

i think plasma blooms have been an interest of DoD for some time now and has even Bloomed into its own field. i think the applications of plasma blooms (and plasma in general) are very, very versitile due to some of their qualities.

i think people should look at Shoulders patents and see if they can figure out why they were of interest to DoD. aviation forum enthusiasts may already have some ideas. look at the patents. what do they do? stop looking at it for clues to ufo propulsion (for now). just notice what they do. then think of obvious applications pertaining.

i think in the case of the Condon report it's likely nearly all of the observed phenomenon have no alien sources.

a reply to: Kevin2024

RE: Why do the people of the US Intel services seem to want to infect ufology and are even publicly involved in doing so (unlike other allied nations).

BTW, question, do you see much of a change since the Kenneth Arnold days to this day? Any patterns?

I think the changes are a result of the technological advances. Spooks used to infiltrate UFO groups back in the 50s - 70s to find out if there any communist spies/sympathisers amongst them. Now they can use the web and other electronic sources. I think it was the 1980s when things went darker though. That's when Roswell became the poster UFO story. The telepathic grey alien and abduction stories became much more common. The elaborate Mj-12 hoax was injected into the mythology. Paul Bennewitz was mentally destroyed for reporting UFOs to the Air Force!!

In a nutshell I'd say that on the one hand there has been deliberate and arguably justified deception to protect the sovereignty of the US and allied nations. Secret space, weapons and spy technology has all been concealed under the UFO umbrella for sure. On the other hand there is some kind of social monitoring going on to see how information flows. Who believes it? Who trashes it? Does it reach foreign adversaries? Can we manipulate the people involved? If so how much so?

Of course the other reason is financial. You can join the UFO circus and boost your pension by talking on radio/TV/at Conferences in the USA. There is no such industry here in the UK. Other than a few dedicated researchers and podcasts we take our lead from the the USA. Our two Nicks (Redfern and Pope) have both scampered across the Atlantic to cash in on the larger market there. I dare say that there is also a company pay off for some people as well to test out how the social manipulation is going.

Next time you get Howe'itzered, given the 'All Greer' or Dotyfied you'll know what I am talking about.

a reply to: The GUT

That’s fascinating reading GUT, I read it the last time you posted it but will read it again

GUT they can do this forever and get people to believe them because everybody isn’t deceived all of the time only some of the time and when some finally get hip more people come along to take their place.


And there’s so many people in the America now creeping on half a billion there are small slices of the pie always available to slice out another group of believers

Also, the young folks don’t know all this stuff about Bennewitz and Serpo.

The Mirageman book wasn’t even a best seller.

BTW, was Saffarti legit or someone pulling our leg ?

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: The GUT

That’s fascinating reading GUT, I read it the last time you posted it but will read it again

GUT they can do this forever and get people to believe them because everybody isn’t deceived all of the time only some of the time and when some finally get hip more people come along to take their place.


And there’s so many people in the America now creeping on half a billion there are small slices of the pie always available to slice out another group of believers

Also, the young folks don’t know all this stuff about Bennewitz and Serpo.

The Mirageman book wasn’t even a best seller.

BTW, was Saffarti legit or someone pulling our leg ?

Yeah, I was thinking a minute ago that the above information (Serpo Hoax) does little to dent the saucer stories being spun for the reasons you mention and more.

As far as Jack: Pretty sure that was him. He has plenty of good discussion elsewhere (along with his own writings) and isn't likely to hang around here. That's why he dropped the links and ran.

a reply to: The GUT

Howdy The GUT

My background is intel. A huge part of how the business operates is the players are entrusted with information they promise not to divulge outside of the compartment where it's maintained. I didn't work with Lou, but he and I ran in the same circles that overlapped beyond our individual office doors. He's an intelligent guy. I think he got a little too far down the road before he realized his 'discovery' was actually a tempest in a teapot. But the ride has turned out to be fun, so why not stay aboard and make some money in the process?

When a person leaves the business, they are bound by law to not divulge classified information (includes confirming or denying) even after their security accesses are withdrawn. This means if the information Elizondo is alluding to were true, the DoD would clamp down on him. And no--he's not part of a big gubmint plan to spoon-feed a measured amount of information to the public.

It will come out later that the report he saw was not based on facts.

a reply to: mirageman

I don't disagree with your response.

But just verifying:

You think that Uncle Sam has been using "UFO's" as cover for a lot of stuff... and I don't disagree..
but some people think (like I do) that there is more to it than that.. that "Uncle Sam" actively
encourages the UFO religion.. to a level that seems to exceed the parameters of simple
black project cover.

I could have sworn there was an article named "Why Does Uncle Sam want us to believe in UFO's"
out there, but I can't find the link.

a reply to: TheTruthRocks

You are saying that if someone leaves the business, and then goes public with something interesting,
that the default conclusion is that they are lying or grossly mistaken about what they think they know?

That would certainly be a useful meme to entrench in public discourse.

Then no mater what, we can only disbelieve anything inconvenient that actually leaked.

That said, I do tend to agree with your position. The penalties for leaking classified information
have to be pretty draconian. I once held a Secret clearance myself when i was a Navy Nuclear
Engineroom Supervisor. I'd NEVER disclose anything, for love or money.

Kev

originally posted by: TheTruthRocks

When a person leaves the business, they are bound by law to not divulge classified information (includes confirming or denying) even after their security accesses are withdrawn. This means if the information Elizondo is alluding to were true, the DoD would clamp down on him. And no--he's not part of a big gubmint plan to spoon-feed a measured amount of information to the public.

It will come out later that the report he saw was not based on facts.

Thanks, TTR. I look forward to more of your posts here at ATS.

It also seems to me that since some of these folk (as of fairly recently anyway) still hold clearances and do various contract work---that at the very least we can assume they're not throwing away their allegiance and at most are still doing Uncle's work.

Since you and I are both of the same opinion that whatever this is, it isn't disclosure, then if they do have some kind of official approval it's my opinion that it has more to do with national security objectives and not UFOs.

I think that while there is some money to be made--and will be--that we're looking at something more than a money scam/dollar grab though.

originally posted by: Kevin2024

I could have sworn there was an article named "Why Does Uncle Sam want us to believe in UFO's"
out there, but I can't find the link.

The Real X-Files - Is Uncle Sam a Closet UFOlogist?
By Gus Russo

Here's an excerpt from that article including direct quotes from "Jim" aka Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green

Then there is Jim, whose professional history in the subject goes back to his personal involvement in the Stargate project in the 1970’s and as a participant in the legendary “Working Group” meetings in the eighties. As one of the intel community’s most senior medical analysts, Jim frequently communicates with UFOlogists. Chris Iverson believes that Tom and Jim clearly have differing agendas, noting, “Jim is the person I have had the most contact with over the last several months and he seems to be interested in the spreading of viral memes over the internet, particularly in relation to this subject.” Iverson is not far off the mark. However, in a recent meeting with this writer, Jim explained that his internet presence emanates from a number of overlapping pursuits.

“The whole subject,” Jim says in wonderfully measured speech, “is composed of three components: delusion, sociological groupthink, and a kernel of truth.” Jim then reminds that he is first and foremost a medical scientist. “My interest in this subject is much, much more professional than it is personal. That is, 90 to 95% of all persons who are engaged fully with this [UFO] subject are psychiatrically ill, and by that I mean that they are on medication or should be.” Jim elaborates that “viral memes,”[see below] in which disturbed people seek validation in numbers on the web, is, or should be, a growing public health concern. That said, Jim nonetheless has a real interest in UFO’s, and seemingly with good reason.

a reply to: Kevin2024

The UFO religion yes possibly. Old Father Hubbard still has an influence stateside. It seems like the "UFOs are Demons" crowd do so why not the men of "science"?