Why the fall had to occur

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I haven't read through all of your linked OP yet, but I will. A quick scan though, if you look at the offenses you listed that God had done, and apply the "seed war" business from my post above yours, explains some of why God did some of those things. Or it can possibly explain.

Not saying I sunscribe to it, but I think it's worth exploring. Have you read anything about it before? Curious your thoughts.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Have you seen walking dead people? You think this is possible?

Well if you believe in a God that quickens the Sprite of man to give him a new nature and a hope of eternal life then knowing that not all will chose eternal life then yea I must have seen them . But that also is a act of faith . You see I believe there is a God and I hope there is while you do not believe there is and hope there is not . Neither of us can prove our faith either way so its a matter of trusting in what we believe and hoping it turns out well .

I have no reason to believe this. Just like you don’t. But still, you persist without good reason. Or any reason.

It doesn’t take faith to not believe your claims.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I haven't read through all of your linked OP yet, but I will. A quick scan though, if you look at the offenses you listed that God had done, and apply the "seed war" business from my post above yours, explains some of why God did some of those things. Or it can possibly explain.

Not saying I sunscribe to it, but I think it's worth exploring. Have you read anything about it before? Curious your thoughts.

I'm familiar with those ideas and spent a lot of time exploring them myself. There was a time where I entertained them as plausible, or even likely. It's an interesting rabbit hole, but filled with too many holes in my opinion. Maybe if you confine yourself to the scriptures, other ancient texts (such as the Book of Enoch), and Christian theology, there are less holes.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It doesn’t take faith to not believe your claims.

It would take faith to believe that God does not exist .I always figured that being agnostic was a least tenable while atheism was not ,especially when it is centered on Empirical evidence or lack there of . My big surprise once I took faith as a guide was the amount of smaller tid bits that keep adding up to a stronger belief .The bigger hurdles for me was my own assumptions and misunderstandings I had going into the faith . Finding a closer context to the truth helps and so studying and questioning and re-reading the Bible always clears up some of the muddy blurred picture for me .

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to give us self-determination?

Two things:

- How would you give a conscious creation with a human intellectual capacity self determination?

- Is it a complicated and convoluted process? Quite young children seem to understand it. Imagine how much less complicated and convoluted it to a superior mind. Or do you expect God to be no cleverer than yourself?

Religiously minded folks invent increasingly more complicated explanations and assumptions, to explain why their gods contradict the very predictable world around us.

They try to shoehorn in a god that needs an increasingly complicated explanation for why he remains undetectable.

No, the whole universe attests to the existence of God. Other explanations have major holes, too, and contain elements of their own mythology (i.e: they are scientifically and rationally untenable).

All interpretations are about about equally valid, I happen to take one on faith because it seems particularly strong to me.

This is the opposite of Occam’s razor. But this is what you get when you try to pluck explanations from ancient works of fiction. It’s like trying to explain the world based on star wars books. There is parts of the story that don’t make sense, and there are parts completly missing. Because it was always a work of fiction.

I have many science text books. None of them even mention a Mercedes SL or its maintenance. It's obvious that they have parts of the story that are completely missing. By your reckoning, they must be works of fiction.

Smart people figured out a long time ago that if you want to figure out the world and the people in it, you should study the world and the people in it. Not some book or church that imprisons people for pointing out that the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

Galileo was not imprisoned for saying that the Sun doesn't revolve around the Earth.

When we observe our actual world and others, we see a universe that unfolds beautifully under natural circumstances. A seemingly infinite amount of predictable functions that follow very specific processes when two or more specific particles interact. It is complex but we are able to make very accurite predictions based on our, oh so limited understanding of it.

Why not leave it at that? Why invent a being with such odd motivations? It’s certainly not an obvious thing that is easily provable. It’s an idea that relies on it’s unprovability. We can see it’s not needed to explain anything. Even this atonement idea, or sacrifice as we pointed out earlier that firemen, police, and even parents and friends can make sacrifices to make everyone’s life a little better. No god’s need apply.

How does any of that disprove God, or mean we have no requirement for absolution?

Our morality and ethicality is built in to our psyche. We have a need for absolution because we are, at the core, moral people but who don't always do the right thing. We have a need to be forgiven and to forgive.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

It doesn’t take faith to not believe your claims.

It would take faith to believe that God does not exist .I always figured that being agnostic was a least tenable while atheism was not ,especially when it is centered on Empirical evidence or lack there of . My big surprise once I took faith as a guide was the amount of smaller tid bits that keep adding up to a stronger belief .The bigger hurdles for me was my own assumptions and misunderstandings I had going into the faith . Finding a closer context to the truth helps and so studying and questioning and re-reading the Bible always clears up some of the muddy blurred picture for me .

It takes no faith to not believe in things. I don’t understand why you keep bringing this up. You use it like an insult but i don’t understand that either. If i say there is a dragon in my garage, and you don’t believe me, is that faith?you have faith that there is no dragon in my garage? I’m pretty sure that is an incorrect use of the word faith. Let me look that up.

Definition of faith

plural faiths play ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāt͟hz
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty lost faith in the company's president
b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions acted in good faith
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs the Protestant faith

It’s always used as faith in something that is believed in. None of these definitions include disbelief. If you can bring a plausible definition which includes disbelief, then i’ll concede, but without that, i’ll just keep pointing out how you’re using words incorrectly.

a reply to: Dcopymope

Many people have many different views on religion. My views tend to be a little more divergent from the mainstream. Please do not be offended or think I am being irreverent. It is not the case. I believe the only way any of us truly learn something is by writing about it. My religious views have change over the years the more I write about the concepts of religion. I think there are some very good ideas in the Bible but have been lost or distorted by original scribes and translators. I don't pretend to speak for God with my views. But I think what is in the Bible are the words of men and not the direct words of God. And therefore, the Bible should be read as metaphor where interpretation of the what the Bible is saying cannot be constrained by a single person's point of view.

That said, I found the video intriguing because of how bold it was in the beginning claiming it will provide answers to very difficult questions. But in the end I did not think the video explained what it said it would explain. To me it just made claims of truth. Is said A therefore B. But just saying A therefore B is true is just claiming an axiom of truth. The video just made declarations of axiomatic truth. Which I don't have a problem is those are the axioms you choose to support your own dogma. However, the video made bold claims in the beginning but came no where close to providing answers other than Jesus Christ is the answer. Which again is fine for people who are fans of Jesus Christ.

Let's break it down a bit. In the video the narrator talked about sin being actions against the nature of God. Nobody knows the true nature of God. God is omnipotent. God needs nothing from us. There is nothing we can do to change God's emotions. I think it is hubris to think anything man does including his own sins has any power over God. Or it is hubris to think God cares if you or I sin one way or the other.

From an omnipotence standpoint, and the video somewhat agrees with this idea, an omnipotent God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about!

However, I think the fall of man has to do with man realizing a separation from God. Seeing the world as opposites. Seeing the world as good and evil. Experiencing the world as having and not having. The fall of man is includes the experience of feeling a separation from God.

And I think the fall of man is a metaphorical idea. I think the fall has to do with our psychology around children leaving their parents. When you are suckling on your mother you are in the garden of Eden. Everything is perfect. After you go through puberty you see yourself separate from your parents. The thing is you are not like your parents, you are your parents. We have all our parent's character strengths and weaknesses. And because of this, we love our parent for their strengths. And we hate our parents for their weaknesses. We only criticize and hate in other people what we do not like about our own character. The fall of man is judging oneself and other people based on their weaknesses. When we judge other people are really judging ourselves as not worthy of God's love.

Redemption and salvation comes from accepting other people's weaknesses and our own weaknesses as God does. When we accept who we are, and we accept other people just as they are, we do so in spite of all our human flaws and weaknesses we then create a new heavenly Jerusalem on Earth. The tree of knowledge will then dissolve and we return back to the oneness that is Eden. We become divine by not judging other people. We have the capacity to help others and our own selfishness is no longer our primary focus of our mindset.

The video talk a lot about Jesus Christ. "Jesus Christ" is almost like a word in our language with all kinds of ambiguous and nebulous meanings. I think people get lost in the idea of Jesus Christ. I think people idol worship Jesus too much. The death and resurrection of Jesus did not give us anything we did not already have. God existed before Jesus. God existed and exists after the crucifixion. I have heard it said there is only one true Christian and he died on the cross. I think God's divine nature is accessible to anyone who spends the time looking for it regardless of how one feels or worships Jesus Christ. God is God.

Also, I don't like the way people believe atonement from sin only comes from Jesus Christ. I think this is a very bad view of sin. Sin is doing something bad against the nature of God as stated in the video. There are many sins listed in the Bible that are not sins by today's standards. There are many acts int he Bible that would be considered sins by today's standards. Take slavery for example and Peter 2:18 which is probably the most immoral passage in the Bible. I think the Bible must be read as metaphor and the words cannot be taken out of the historical context they were written. The important thing is not to lose site of the Bibles essential message and that is morality is important. If you believe the Bible is absolute truth I would love to hear your argument why Peter 2:18 is not completely immoral.

So here is my view on sin and atonement. First buying absolution from the church is just wrong. Second, what is sin and what is not sin is defined by the culture we live in. What is sin today was not sin 200 years ago. For example, when dating a young girl "no" always means "no". Clearly this is not in the Bible but is probably one of man's greatest possible sins in today's society if a man forces himself on a women sexually without her permission. My point is not about sex but about what is sin and what is not sin changes over time.

So how does one achieve atonement. For many people, you just have to say magic words or perform certain ritual acts and just like magic you have been atoned. I don't think it works this way. The only way to achieve atonement is by knowing the sin has occurred. Then you have get forgiveness from the person you have sinned against. Which may be very difficult for you depending on the sin. If the person you are seeking atonement for requires certain acts of contrition the so be it. Absolution comes from the person you have sinned against. This is very much more difficult than simply saying magic Jesus words for atonement. Most people I tell this to hate the idea because it's too hard.

The video posted the question "why are we here?" I think we are the Universe's way of experience itself. In terms of God, we are God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joy, happiness, frustration, and suffering.

The video asks the question "why would God allow suffering?" You can't have free will if God participates in the affairs of man. As far as I can tell based on human experiments there is no amount of evil and suffering God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. If anything God is pro-choice. If God were really pro-choice He would give each of us the power of omnipotence so we can be the author of what we are allowed to choose.

a reply to: dfnj2015

The video asked the question "what is the point of it all?" Since no one knows the mind of God we will just have to assume God loves His creation enough to allow us to keeping thinking about it. I'm not sure there is a grand purpose. As far as I can tell there is no grand purpose to all of existence. I think when it comes "what's the point of it all" each us somewhat responsible for creating a meaningful life worth living whatever that may mean.

a reply to: Woodcarver

It’s always used as faith in something that is believed in. None of these definitions include disbelief. If you can bring a plausible definition which includes disbelief, then i’ll concede, but without that, i’ll just keep pointing out how you’re using words incorrectly.

Do you have the belief that there is no God ? Do you trust in your belief that there is no God ?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Is killing nearly every human on the planet not considered evil any more? I know they’re just stories, but god did some bad # to people. Job? Killing kids? Setting standards for how to beat your slaves? I mean, i’m pretty sure humans wrote all that stuff and just nudge, nudge, “god said!!!” But they wrote it that way so people would be scared of god.

Killing gays? Sending hurricanes because some of us don’t want to kill the gays? (I actually hear that one a lot. Lol)

haveing part of his story include firey consequences for not believing in him and then, him never showing up to prove he exists while also giving some people rational minds that need to see proof before we accept stupid claims? That in itself is some evil #.

Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Throw that in with only 30% of the world actually even claiming belief.

Those rules were handed to the Hebrews, dont want to be a Hebrew, leave
Simple, plenty of other cultures around that accepted gays, whatever

Stop being a la la about what others choose

As for killing people, where do you stand with the legal system and the death sentence?
Justice or not?

Then this

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Go look in a mirror Woody, your as bad if not worse than those you accuse around here
If you had an inkling of the subject rather than your preconcieved imaginations, it would be helpful

Are you a hebrew?

The death sentence? I’m for it, when crimes are particularly cruel.

The bible calls for the death of gays, unruly children, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with the law. Which is barbaric. Not the same as our current standards for who deserves execution.

This is what i mean by bereft of any debate skills.

Do you think gays deserve execution? Unruly children? Are you ok with beating slaves? These are both acceptable by your gods standards.

No Woodie I am not a HEBREW

The OT Bible calls for HEBREWS, get that part of the old testament bible?, its for THE HEBREWS, those who claim to be Hebrews, to follow the laws of Moses, I am not a HEBREW
I am not Hebrew, its not relevant to me.

Bereft of debate skills is better than comprehension skills

Hebrews are called by God to be separated from other cultures, hence their different laws


If a person chooses to be a Hebrew then they choose to live Mosaic law, if they dont want to be a Hebrew, to follow Mosaic law, go find another society.
I expect you would say that about those in Sharia law in your society?
I bet you have said something like "dont like our laws, then leave" or something like that, hay Woody?

There seems to be a logical disconnect in your understanding.

Use your brain, think

a reply to: Raggedyman

For the Hebrews, yes. From the same God.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver



Atonement for our sins of course, of which Adam and Eve brought about, which I make very clear was going to happen whether they ate of the tree that introduced sin into the world or not. I explain why God put the tree in the garden in the video, enjoy.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to bring about a situation that requires us to be in some kind of debt to him? It seems the less your story makes actual sense, the more mysterious god has to be to explain the need for it to be there.

I’m guessing god didn’t tell you any of this? You just figured it all out on your own?

Its not a debt, its a gift

You are like a baby asking to be fed then moaning when someone tells you, what you dont actually want to hear
Just why?

God wants relationship, with equals, He created humanity to be equals, this life is a lesson, a lesson why love is the only thing that works
Life is the experience, the lesson to turn from evil.

You just made all of that up, and now you think you are equal to this god?


Does anyone else think this guy is equals with the god thing?

Thats the baby crying because its thirsty but wont take the milk
We will be co equals to God, because the Spirit Dwells in Christians who are in Christ, who id God, basic scripture teaching

But hay, I bet you know everything, you are the theologian



John 1:12
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Ephesians 1:5
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Romans 15:7
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
1 Corinthians 6:17
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

So Woody, there is what the bible teaches
You have no idea, just a contrary, crying and moaning complaint

God in us


1 Corinthians 3:16


Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19
Verse Concepts

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16
Verse Concepts

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

But of course Woody, you have studied this havnt you, you know more than anyone else?

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: chr0naut

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

Let’s see.

Killed everyone apart from a couple of folk on an impossible boat.

Surely blind, ignorant, uncaring nature did that.

Also, God did try and save them, but they didn't listen to the warnings and ridiculed those that warned them.

Set bears on kids because they called someone bald.

Nature, again. But it seems that there were 42 of these 'kids' which sounds somewhat organized, doesn't it. My guess is that they were a mob of young men sent to kill Elisha. Also, if I was in a group of 42 men and two bears began attacking me, I wouldn't wait around to be mauled. These guys did. Why?

Is fine with slavery and punishes those who don’t do what their master says.

The Bible says nothing of the kind (it actually says that if you are a Christian and a slave, that you should obey your master, which was the norm during Roman times and is different than condoning slavery) and, it was the Christian influence that abolished slavery. Not the secular.

Hates anyone who is handicapped and disfigured and they can’t get into heaven.

The instruction in Leviticus meant the handicapped did not have to supply a sacrifice. It would only be fair not to make demands of those who could not otherwise take care of themselves.

Smashing babies against rocks.

That was a misquotation from a song by Jews requesting that God forgive the sin of those who would defeat the Babylonians by doing the things to the Babylonians that the Babylonians had done to the Jews. No one was asked to do such despicable acts and God didn't, either.

That’s just a few.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Only because people say it was. But let’s say the devil really was evil. Well, that’s your gods fault as it supposedly created everything.

Such a nice god.

Satan when created, was good and had an important role. Satan then chose to do evil. God neither created, nor did, evil.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.

Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?

That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?

Lol, oh my goodness. This is stuff they teach fifth graders man. The sun is supplying the earth with energy. Even though it is in a state of entropy, this energy bathes our entire world as it disipates. Large masses of matter have a proportional gravitational pull on objects which enter it’s field.

You seem to have forgotten that the stuff that is dissipating now must have come from somewhere and assembled rather than dissipating.

How?

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: chr0naut

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

Let’s see.

Killed everyone apart from a couple of folk on an impossible boat.

Set bears on kids because they called someone bald.

Is fine with slavery and punishes those who don’t do what their master says.

Hates anyone who is handicapped and disfigured and they can’t get into heaven.

Smashing babies against rocks.

That’s just a few.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Only because people say it was. But let’s say the devil really was evil. Well, that’s your gods fault as it supposedly created everything.

Such a nice god.

You know TD, you dont know

You have read another persons opinion and accepted it because you want to accept it
Confirmation bias

The sad thing is there are explanations, you just dont want to hear them, another moaning know it all who doesnt know anything

But please feel free to believe what you want, its your God given righty

a reply to: Raggedyman

a reply to: chr0naut

And here it is. Excuses or flat out ignoring what’s written in your religious book because it doesn’t fit with your “god is good” mantra.

Here’s the thing. Your god, according to your book, is not a nice, kind, loving god. But I expect more denial, deflection and excuses because “god is good”.

I won’t bother posting in this thread again. It’s pointless talking to the religious.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.

Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?

That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?

Lol, oh my goodness. This is stuff they teach fifth graders man. The sun is supplying the earth with energy. Even though it is in a state of entropy, this energy bathes our entire world as it disipates. Large masses of matter have a proportional gravitational pull on objects which enter it’s field.

You seem to have forgotten that the stuff that is dissipating now must have come from somewhere and assembled rather than dissipating.

How?

Gravity. You do know how stars and planets form? This isn’t new science.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver



Atonement for our sins of course, of which Adam and Eve brought about, which I make very clear was going to happen whether they ate of the tree that introduced sin into the world or not. I explain why God put the tree in the garden in the video, enjoy.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to bring about a situation that requires us to be in some kind of debt to him? It seems the less your story makes actual sense, the more mysterious god has to be to explain the need for it to be there.

I’m guessing god didn’t tell you any of this? You just figured it all out on your own?

Its not a debt, its a gift

You are like a baby asking to be fed then moaning when someone tells you, what you dont actually want to hear
Just why?

God wants relationship, with equals, He created humanity to be equals, this life is a lesson, a lesson why love is the only thing that works
Life is the experience, the lesson to turn from evil.

You just made all of that up, and now you think you are equal to this god?


Does anyone else think this guy is equals with the god thing?

Thats the baby crying because its thirsty but wont take the milk
We will be co equals to God, because the Spirit Dwells in Christians who are in Christ, who id God, basic scripture teaching

But hay, I bet you know everything, you are the theologian

John 1:12
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Ephesians 1:5
5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Romans 15:7
7 Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.
1 Corinthians 6:17
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

So Woody, there is what the bible teaches
You have no idea, just a contrary, crying and moaning complaint

God in us


1 Corinthians 3:16


Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19
Verse Concepts

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16
Verse Concepts

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

But of course Woody, you have studied this havnt you, you know more than anyone else?

Baby? You’re not even good at insulting.

And, you are using the bible to prove the bible is right. Circular argument.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Is killing nearly every human on the planet not considered evil any more? I know they’re just stories, but god did some bad # to people. Job? Killing kids? Setting standards for how to beat your slaves? I mean, i’m pretty sure humans wrote all that stuff and just nudge, nudge, “god said!!!” But they wrote it that way so people would be scared of god.

Killing gays? Sending hurricanes because some of us don’t want to kill the gays? (I actually hear that one a lot. Lol)

haveing part of his story include firey consequences for not believing in him and then, him never showing up to prove he exists while also giving some people rational minds that need to see proof before we accept stupid claims? That in itself is some evil #.

Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Throw that in with only 30% of the world actually even claiming belief.

Those rules were handed to the Hebrews, dont want to be a Hebrew, leave
Simple, plenty of other cultures around that accepted gays, whatever

Stop being a la la about what others choose

As for killing people, where do you stand with the legal system and the death sentence?
Justice or not?

Then this

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Go look in a mirror Woody, your as bad if not worse than those you accuse around here
If you had an inkling of the subject rather than your preconcieved imaginations, it would be helpful

Are you a hebrew?

The death sentence? I’m for it, when crimes are particularly cruel.

The bible calls for the death of gays, unruly children, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with the law. Which is barbaric. Not the same as our current standards for who deserves execution.

This is what i mean by bereft of any debate skills.

Do you think gays deserve execution? Unruly children? Are you ok with beating slaves? These are both acceptable by your gods standards.

No Woodie I am not a HEBREW

The OT Bible calls for HEBREWS, get that part of the old testament bible?, its for THE HEBREWS, those who claim to be Hebrews, to follow the laws of Moses, I am not a HEBREW
I am not Hebrew, its not relevant to me.

Bereft of debate skills is better than comprehension skills

Hebrews are called by God to be separated from other cultures, hence their different laws


If a person chooses to be a Hebrew then they choose to live Mosaic law, if they dont want to be a Hebrew, to follow Mosaic law, go find another society.
I expect you would say that about those in Sharia law in your society?
I bet you have said something like "dont like our laws, then leave" or something like that, hay Woody?

There seems to be a logical disconnect in your understanding.

Use your brain, think

As usual, your best argument is to assume i am this way or that. I could care less if someone wants to live by sharia law, but if they break united states law while here, they are going to jail.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: jokei
a reply to: Woodcarver

Your genitals make you a bad and sinful person.

Actually, the brain is the largest sexual organ.

What about the dirty pillows?