Why the fall had to occur

a reply to: chr0naut
Perhaps we should start over with an explanation how Jesus is not talking about someone else in the chapter below if you think I'm wrong about all this and you wish to help me figure out the truth of the matter as per the advice regarding the subject of “reprove those who contradict” (Titus 1:9,10), "Give a reproof to a wise person and he will love you." (Pr.9:8b) and by following Jesus' fine example: “‘All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline." (Rev.3:19).

John 17

Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you, 2 just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him. 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. 4 I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. 5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.

6 “I have made your name manifest* [Or “known.”] to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word. 7 Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; 8 because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those whom you have given me, because they are yours; 10 and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.

11 “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one. 12 When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world, so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. 14 I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me. 26 I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

How on earth is Jesus not talking about someone else there? Praying to someone else? Clearly distinguishing between himself and his God and Father whose name he made known while explaining what he means when he uses a phrase like "just as we are one" regarding his relationship with his Father and God and comparing it with what he wants for his disciples? If you use Trinitarian logic consistently that they use in their argumentation in the other verse where Jesus mentions "I and the Father are one" but doesn't mention his disciples making it easier to twist out of the larger context of Scripture and keep people ignorant how Jesus means this as he clearly explains in the prayer above; this would end up making his disciples part of the Trinity. Then suddenly Trinitarians don't have a problem understanding what Jesus means with being "one". Now that's convenient (since you said something about me supposedly doing something convenient to avoid an issue when doing the psyshological projection thingy).

And to cut off some further twisting:


Might as well address the possible red herring misinterpretation of the phrase "I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me..." (to obscure what God's only personal unique identifying name is).

The Hebrew Scriptures sometimes claim that there is only one God, and sometimes that Yahweh is the greatest among many gods. Things get even more confusing in the New Testament, where Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also referred to as God. The concept of the "Holy Trinity" was created to address this contradiction, but the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are interpreted differently among different Christians today.


So yes "there is one god" is said but since the Bible is supposed to be complete holy scripture how does one ignore passages that say there are multiple gods?

In the book of Genesis, God used a plural pronoun to refer to himself (herself, itself, or themselves), implying that there is more than one god up there.

And God said, let us make man in our image. Genesis 1:26

And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. Genesis 3:22

Let us go down, and there confound their language. Genesis 11:7

The Old Testament God is a "god of gods" who is worshiped by the other gods..

For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords. Deuteronomy 10:17

Worship him, all ye gods. Psalm 97:7

O give thanks unto the God of gods. Psalm 136:2

No other god is like him.

Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord. Psalm 86:8

He is better than the other gods.

Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? Exodus 15:11

Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods. Exodus 18:11

Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. Exodus 20:3-5

What God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works? Deuteronomy 3:24

Our Lord is above all gods. Psalm 135:5

The other gods will die someday.

The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. Jeremiah 10:11

The Hebrew God judges the other gods.

And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. Exodus 12:12

Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. Numbers 33:4

God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods. Psalm 82:1

And will punish them.

I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods. Jeremiah 46:25

The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth. Zephaniah 2:11

He is a jealous God (whose name is Jealous). So he forbids us to "go after" or worship any of his competitors.

For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14

Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you.) Deuteronomy 6:14-15

Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them. Deuteronomy 28:14

If you give God glory, he'll go easy on you and all your other gods.

Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. 1 Samuel 6:5

And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. Jeremiah 25:6

But you must fear God more than all the other gods.

The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. 1 Chronicles 16:25

For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. Psalm 96:4

Don't sacrfifice to any of the other gods. (Or God will kill you.)

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20

Don't put any of the other gods before him.

Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Deuteronomy 5:7

Don't make a covenant with them.

Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Exodus 23:32

Don't burn incense to them.

I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods. Jeremiah 1:16

Or even mention their names.

Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Exodus 23:13

Put away your father's gods.

Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. Joshua 24:14

And stay away from the god named Chemosh.

Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? Judges 11:24

But don't revile the other gods.

Thou shalt not revile the gods. Exodus 22:28

Other people served other gods (as did Abraham's father Terah).

Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods. Joshua 24:2

And a witch once saw gods going up to heaven.

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

Always remember that people are gods too. (Jesus used this when he was accused of making himself a god.)

I have said, Ye are gods. Psalm 82:6

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:33-34

And the three gods in heaven are really only one god.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7






Then how do you figure out how many sons does god have? It may say in John Jesus id god's only son but:

Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38

Ephraim is my [God's] firstborn. Jeremiah 31:9

He [Solomon] shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. 2 Samuel 7:13-14

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalm 2:7-8

Thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn. Exodus 4:22

a reply to: joelr
My God! How many God's firstborn are there? I thought Jesus was the one and only God's begotten firstborn.

Thanks for the info. I need to research this.

Edit: I get it. It just common practise for Jews to title any loyal servants of god as, "son of god", Rabbi or Judge as "god" and "firstborn" as way to show favoritism over other nation, people etc..

Angels were also called as gods.Tho, I find it really weird that Satan was included as god too. And nephilim as sons of god. It just part of how old Jewish people understand things, which is different than us. I wonder if we show them aircraft today, they may also call it god too, since it can fly among the clouds.

The Bible should make clear distinction when it come to god and gods as to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. For example, by calling the Pharisees as gods, it could confuse readers as to what it mean. I blame the Bible accountability.

originally posted by: EasternShadow
a reply to: joelr

Angels were also called as gods.Tho, I find it really weird that Satan was included as god too.

What's so weird about it? Possible definitions for the words that have been translated "god(s)" is "mighty one(s)", "heavenly being(s)" and "spirit (being)". All of those definitions apply to Satan as an angel. Satan is as much a god/heavenly being as the other angels. And as "the god of this system of things" (2 Cor.4:4) he's certainly a "mighty one" as well, having great influence over mankind, Christendom in particular (or it's one of his most cunning tools of control and indoctrination, the biggest part of Babylon the Great).

Back to something you said before that:

It just common practise for Jews to title any loyal servants of god as,..."firstborn" as way to show favoritism over other nation, people etc..

Col.1:15

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

originally posted by: whereislogic

Back to something you said before that:

It just common practise for Jews to title any loyal servants of god as,..."firstborn" as way to show favoritism over other nation, people etc..

Col.1:15

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

I wouldn't argue with Col. 1:15 and Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. ( Although, to be honest, I reject the notion of preexisting Jesus ).

But in context of Israel or Ephraim being firstborn of god, all those video references cannot be applied. The proper definition should be, god simply favor Israel over other nations and god also favor Ephraim over other prophets of his timeline.

a reply to: joelr

Things get even more confusing in the New Testament, where Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also referred to as God.

I don't believe there is a passage in the NT that claims the Holy spirit to be God... perhaps vague allusions to it, but nothing that actually says the holy spirit is God... same with Jesus for that matter, though the writer of John definitely hints at the idea

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: joelr

Things get even more confusing in the New Testament, where Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also referred to as God.

I don't believe there is a passage in the NT that claims the Holy spirit to be God... perhaps vague allusions to it, but nothing that actually says the holy spirit is God... same with Jesus for that matter, though the writer of John definitely hints at the idea

I'm not sure. But if some other religion like Hinduism had just one god (it actually does) but also had a "holy ghost" it would be called monolatrism, a belief in multiple gods.

Hinduism has one ultimate god Brahman all other supernatural aspects are just a part of. Christianity does the same thing, one ultimate god but other supernatural entities roaming around, a holy ghost, Jesus the son of god, a devil, angels, all aspects of the one god.

It's actually no different in Hindu, there is just one god and all other supernatural conceptual entities - Krishna, Shiva, are just aspects of the one god. Both religions are either monotheistic or bothy are monolatrism.

originally posted by: EasternShadow

I wouldn't argue with Col. 1:15 and Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. ( Although, to be honest, I reject the notion of preexisting Jesus ).

Philo mentions this angel:

"For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he calls the firstborn; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns. "

"let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God's image, and he who sees Israel. "

This is from Philo commenting and quoting Zacariah and Jewish writings. Philo was the biblical expert of that time.

Carrier expands on the ides here: www.youtube.com...
at 6:48 he starts and goes over some reasons until 12:00