Why the fall had to occur

Do you even know what the fall meant? Means?

a reply to: chr0naut

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

Let’s see.

Killed everyone apart from a couple of folk on an impossible boat.

Set bears on kids because they called someone bald.

Is fine with slavery and punishes those who don’t do what their master says.

Hates anyone who is handicapped and disfigured and they can’t get into heaven.

Smashing babies against rocks.

That’s just a few.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Only because people say it was. But let’s say the devil really was evil. Well, that’s your gods fault as it supposedly created everything.

Such a nice god.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Is killing nearly every human on the planet not considered evil any more? I know they’re just stories, but god did some bad # to people. Job? Killing kids? Setting standards for how to beat your slaves? I mean, i’m pretty sure humans wrote all that stuff and just nudge, nudge, “god said!!!” But they wrote it that way so people would be scared of god.

Killing gays? Sending hurricanes because some of us don’t want to kill the gays? (I actually hear that one a lot. Lol)

haveing part of his story include firey consequences for not believing in him and then, him never showing up to prove he exists while also giving some people rational minds that need to see proof before we accept stupid claims? That in itself is some evil #.

Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Throw that in with only 30% of the world actually even claiming belief.

The whole Adam and eve thing... someone made mankind. Someone else had a way to make us better. Read. A. Lot

a reply to: Woodcarver

No doubt wee have advanced in our knowledge and abilities in the recent past . Heck it wasn't that far back we could only travel as fast as a horse could take us and required wind or paddles to move us on water and forget about flying . We may think that these are great achievements but if we look around at the natural world and whats going on they are only kind of copy's of other things in nature. So we live exist and then we die .Will it matter if we got to go almost into outer space or will dedicating your life to family friends and community give us a sense of true self worth . Some choose to drop bombs while others choose to plant bombs and yet someone decides to create bombs . There is a lot to be said about milking cows and pitching hay . Not very scientific and probably quite boring to some .

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

This isn't about Donald Trump, this is about God and Satan. God wins in the end, so his "approval rating" will be much higher than any chump in a monkey suit in the end, of which there will be billions upon billions. If you want to talk about politics, or about something else other than God, then go to those forums and stop wasting my time with these silly arguments.

Just making a point. 30% of the world. That’s not bigly numbers.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

No doubt wee have advanced in our knowledge and abilities in the recent past . Heck it wasn't that far back we could only travel as fast as a horse could take us and required wind or paddles to move us on water and forget about flying . We may think that these are great achievements but if we look around at the natural world and whats going on they are only kind of copy's of other things in nature. So we live exist and then we die .Will it matter if we got to go almost into outer space or will dedicating your life to family friends and community give us a sense of true self worth . Some choose to drop bombs while others choose to plant bombs and yet someone decides to create bombs . There is a lot to be said about milking cows and pitching hay . Not very scientific and probably quite boring to some .

I could do without the bombs. And yes, we use what we know about nature to build the marvels that allow us an even deeper understanding of nature. We have a deep understanding of nature. And still no sign of a creator or a guy who answers prayers. And def no zombies. Did you know there are thousands of zombies in your book?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Atonement for our sins of course, of which Adam and Eve brought about, which I make very clear was going to happen whether they ate of the tree that introduced sin into the world or not. I explain why God put the tree in the garden in the video, enjoy.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to bring about a situation that requires us to be in some kind of debt to him? It seems the less your story makes actual sense, the more mysterious god has to be to explain the need for it to be there.

I’m guessing god didn’t tell you any of this? You just figured it all out on your own?

Its not a debt, its a gift

You are like a baby asking to be fed then moaning when someone tells you, what you dont actually want to hear
Just why?

God wants relationship, with equals, He created humanity to be equals, this life is a lesson, a lesson why love is the only thing that works
Life is the experience, the lesson to turn from evil.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.

Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?

That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Is killing nearly every human on the planet not considered evil any more? I know they’re just stories, but god did some bad # to people. Job? Killing kids? Setting standards for how to beat your slaves? I mean, i’m pretty sure humans wrote all that stuff and just nudge, nudge, “god said!!!” But they wrote it that way so people would be scared of god.

Killing gays? Sending hurricanes because some of us don’t want to kill the gays? (I actually hear that one a lot. Lol)

haveing part of his story include firey consequences for not believing in him and then, him never showing up to prove he exists while also giving some people rational minds that need to see proof before we accept stupid claims? That in itself is some evil #.

Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Throw that in with only 30% of the world actually even claiming belief.

Those rules were handed to the Hebrews, dont want to be a Hebrew, leave
Simple, plenty of other cultures around that accepted gays, whatever

Stop being a la la about what others choose

As for killing people, where do you stand with the legal system and the death sentence?
Justice or not?

Then this

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Go look in a mirror Woody, your as bad if not worse than those you accuse around here
If you had an inkling of the subject rather than your preconcieved imaginations, it would be helpful

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Atonement for our sins of course, of which Adam and Eve brought about, which I make very clear was going to happen whether they ate of the tree that introduced sin into the world or not. I explain why God put the tree in the garden in the video, enjoy.

Why would a god need such a complicated and convoluted process to bring about a situation that requires us to be in some kind of debt to him? It seems the less your story makes actual sense, the more mysterious god has to be to explain the need for it to be there.

I’m guessing god didn’t tell you any of this? You just figured it all out on your own?

Its not a debt, its a gift

You are like a baby asking to be fed then moaning when someone tells you, what you dont actually want to hear
Just why?

God wants relationship, with equals, He created humanity to be equals, this life is a lesson, a lesson why love is the only thing that works
Life is the experience, the lesson to turn from evil.

You just made all of that up, and now you think you are equal to this god?


Does anyone else think this guy is equals with the god thing?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dcopymope
a reply to: Woodcarver

Again, watch the video. You will either except the answer or you won't.

The video is stupid. Your starting from a place where you have already accepted that a bunch of # actually happened. You literally have to believe in some crazy # to get this far into this explanation. All the while you are forgetting to bring any proof that this god you believe in, even exists.

Shouldn’t we start with proving that this god of yours is real? before you start attributing all of these motivations to him? It looks a lot like you are projecting your own motivations onto this thing. It is a way for you to feel above others. You can point around at people and arbitrarily judge them by your fav book. The book tells you what to like and what not to like, and then you expand on it to include anyone who disagrees with you. It’s just a book. A fictional book full of the things that people believed thousands of years ago. Meanwhile, some of us already know not to be dicks to people while your still spouting about adam and eve and atonement for things that never happened to a god that doesn’t exist. Those stories are old man. God isn’t real. That stuff didn’t happen.

I see no dif between islam and christianity. Both are worthless at anything except creating people who think they need to force others to comply with them.

Prove any god exists before you start telling people what he’s like.

Existence of everything, the whole universe, in its incredibly complex and varied form, despite 13.4 billion years of entropy, is a pretty good evidence of something way beyond science.

I mean, science tells us that nearly everything evolved from less complex forms. How did that entropy reversal happen and why is it now (measurably) going the other way?

Science is just another mythology, full of nonsense like 'anti-entropic' actions performed randomly by nothing, like the superluminal expansion of the universe, like that a universe-massive super-singularity could actually ever expand (surely it would attract, capture and collapse any existing mass to the singularity, for eternity), like quantum superposition and Pauli exclusion somehow don't negate the idea of creation of that super-singularity from quantum fluctuation. Like a multi-worlds hypothesis which jibes against the measurable fact that energy can neither be created nor destroyed (it would have to be infinitely creatable to bifurcate the existing universe into new ones all the time).

And, of course, you'd see Christianity and Islam as essentially the same.

Anti entropic? You see that huge ball of gas burning in the sky sometimes? You know, the one that powers pretty much every reaction that takes place on this planet? The one constantly adding energy to this world? You ever see that?

That big ball is spraying out all its energy into space. Distributing and dissipating itself. It is the very engine of entropy.

The energy that it emanates from it, once went into it. The Sun does not 'make' energy, it converts some of the mass to energy through nuclear fusion.

When it has consumed itself and flung enough into space, it will go cold. Then it will still loose energy until even its smallest particles dissipate into space in the heat death of the universe.

It has been 'entropying' like this for tens of billions of years. But how did it get its start?

Why did enough 'Big Bang' energy convert itself into matter and then clump enough to attract gravitationally?

The same entropy, at the same rate that is killing the Sun today, despite its condensed mass, were acting upon it before its birth?

Lol, oh my goodness. This is stuff they teach fifth graders man. The sun is supplying the earth with energy. Even though it is in a state of entropy, this energy bathes our entire world as it disipates. Large masses of matter have a proportional gravitational pull on objects which enter it’s field.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Did you know there are thousands of zombies in your book?

I believe in the walking dead that have a very short existence and walk amongst us . I have the hope of eternal life while they do not .

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: Dcopymope

So you justify all the evilness done by your god, in your book because “god”?

Yet the devil still hasn’t done anywhere near as much bad as your god, according to your book. Seems like your god is actually the evil one.

Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Is killing nearly every human on the planet not considered evil any more? I know they’re just stories, but god did some bad # to people. Job? Killing kids? Setting standards for how to beat your slaves? I mean, i’m pretty sure humans wrote all that stuff and just nudge, nudge, “god said!!!” But they wrote it that way so people would be scared of god.

Killing gays? Sending hurricanes because some of us don’t want to kill the gays? (I actually hear that one a lot. Lol)

haveing part of his story include firey consequences for not believing in him and then, him never showing up to prove he exists while also giving some people rational minds that need to see proof before we accept stupid claims? That in itself is some evil #.

Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Throw that in with only 30% of the world actually even claiming belief.

Those rules were handed to the Hebrews, dont want to be a Hebrew, leave
Simple, plenty of other cultures around that accepted gays, whatever

Stop being a la la about what others choose

As for killing people, where do you stand with the legal system and the death sentence?
Justice or not?

Then this

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Not to mention, the only people who keep this # alive and spread the good news are the most annoying people bereft of any actual debate skills.

Go look in a mirror Woody, your as bad if not worse than those you accuse around here
If you had an inkling of the subject rather than your preconcieved imaginations, it would be helpful

Are you a hebrew?

The death sentence? I’m for it, when crimes are particularly cruel.

The bible calls for the death of gays, unruly children, and pretty much anyone who disagrees with the law. Which is barbaric. Not the same as our current standards for who deserves execution.

This is what i mean by bereft of any debate skills.

Do you think gays deserve execution? Unruly children? Are you ok with beating slaves? These are both acceptable by your gods standards.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Did you know there are thousands of zombies in your book?

I believe in the walking dead that have a very short existence and walk amongst us . I have the hope of eternal life while they do not .

Have you seen walking dead people? You think this is possible?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Have you seen walking dead people? You think this is possible?

Well if you believe in a God that quickens the Sprite of man to give him a new nature and a hope of eternal life then knowing that not all will chose eternal life then yea I must have seen them . But that also is a act of faith . You see I believe there is a God and I hope there is while you do not believe there is and hope there is not . Neither of us can prove our faith either way so its a matter of trusting in what we believe and hoping it turns out well .

a reply to: Dcopymope

When that was written there was no Bible. And much of the scripture referenced in the Bible was not included or later removed. I think perhaps you might like to look at how the books of the Bible were decided upon.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

I think perhaps you might like to look at how the books of the Bible were decided upon.

A very good subject and one that is very interesting to both believers and non believers . Even looking into unicorns in the Bible can result in unexpected answers One mans myth can be another mans fact

Have you looked into the "seed war" theory? It involves "the Watchers," or the "sons of God" who "fell" with Satan.

It says that God had a Divine Council with him when he created man, and that eventually, a number of these sons of God (heavenly beings) interfered with man, and are the reason for our "fall." Man still bears responsibility, but these sons of God are on the chopping block now but don't have a chance at redemption like we do.

It's argued that they (some members of the Divine Council) took human women as wives, and since the resulting offspring were half human and half not-human, the result was a terrible creation that went around and corrupted the earth. This was the reason for the Flood....Noah's family was the only tribe left whose genes weren't corrupted with these "Watchers'" genes. Noah's tribe was still fully human, and so God wiped out everyone but them, in order to start over with his original intent. But these sons of God came back and did the same thing, more than once after the flood.

This is the reason God divided up the nations after the Tower of Babel incident; he assigned different tribes and regions to each of these sons of God, said "fine, worship these guys, I'm going to let them rule you how they wish" but chose and saved Israel for himself, as His people.

In a nutshell. Michael Heiser (biblical languages scholar) has two books about this, plus videos you can watch, where he takes you through the biblical text that tells this story.

Makes a lot more sense to me than man being punished forever for eating a forbidden apple or something.

originally posted by: chr0naut
Please, identify the specific evil/s that God has done, as recorded in the Bible.

These are just my opinions, obviously: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The devil, on the other hand, is clearly recorded as being a liar, tempter, murderer and the author of evil.

Please identify the specific evils that Satan has done, as recorded in the Bible.



ETA:

I understand a lot of what is in the linked thread was for the Hebrews and not Christians. Those things still remain as valid points on the character of God, however. The same God the Christians believe in commanded those things.

Jesus is just better for public relations.