It's official , Jerusalem is Israel's capital - Trump

a reply to: enkilo

So mass murders are the ultimate expression of civilization? Personally, I like to think that the more developed an individual is, the less they need to use violence, either to get what they need or to defend themselves.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: enkilo

So mass murders are the ultimate expression of civilization? Personally, I like to think that the more developed an individual is, the less they need to use violence, either to get what they need or to defend themselves.

The more proficient at violence you are, the less you actually need to use it.

originally posted by: enkilo
You misunderstand the concept of civilization. To be willing to kill over something is to be civilized.

Those who have no principles and no ideals worth killing other are utterly incapable of building a civilization.

If you back down every time somebody threatens your life, you will always bow to tyrants. Because they will inevitably threaten your life to get what they want.

If you stand up to tyrants but are unwilling to kill them, then they will inevitably kill you.

It is only when you are willing to kill them that you can know liberty.


Civilization is not about refraining from killing people. It's about demonstrating some degree of strategy about who you kill and why.

Well, if that what civilization is then I rather be uncivilized.

Suit yourself.

But while you may have the option to choose whether you yourself are violent in nature, you don't have the option to choose whether anyone else is.

Being "uncivilized" inevitably puts you at someone else's mercy. Either at the mercy of someone who is civilized, or quite often at the mercy of someone who isn't, but who chooses violence all the same. (Civilized people may use violence, but they certainly don't have the monopoly on violence.)

By your definition, no one can claim that the Arab is uncivilized for trying to rid themselves of the Jewish state. They demonstrated some degree of strategy

That would be true, if they did indeed use any strategy. But they really didn't. They just assumed that if they mustered the largest force they could get, and threw it at Israel they would change something.

They were reacting instead of acting. Venting their rage like a wild animal.

, to get back Palestine and to eliminate their more powerful neighbor. Not that any of the Arab states have actually attempted any attack against Israel in a long while, knowing very well they'll get their asses handed to them and risk losing the support of USA, who provide nation like Egypt with much taxpayers money.

As typically does a wild animal, if it gets beat soundly.

They're not using logic, just raw emotion. A direct conquest of Israel was a clearly unrealistic goal. Such a victory would have been symbolic at best, because it would only last until the USA and other Nato partners sent their troops in.

Symbolically, and emotionally, they'd been pushed pretty far and it was necessary to respond in some manner.


Meanwhile, the Israelis, having emotionally and symbolically every reason to want to lash out against Germany, and hold a grudge until the end of time, they chose instead to take the path that made the most strategic sense, and value Germany as an ally.

In general, the West is pretty quick to forgive one another of past transgressions. In world War II the USA came to the aid of Great Britain, having completely let go of resentment over the war of 1812 when British forces stormed Washington DC and set fire to the White House.

Because of this, the West is always united.

A sitution which the Us taxpayer should seriously asked themselves why?

I think it has to do with wanting to maintain a friendship with the Saudis.

Again, thinking strategically, instead of emotionally.

a reply to: DJW001

i think your comment should be directed at djw001.

a reply to: enkilo

If you stand up to tyrants but are unwilling to kill them, then they will inevitably kill you.

Ghandi doesn't disagree with you here, but survival wasn't his prime objective either. Which is why this form of peaceful protest was so fricken effective btw.
Any form of violence will obviously play straight into the Apartheid regimes playbook.



Here's an informative presentation from Jeff Halper on why the 2-state-solution is history by now.

originally posted by: enkilo
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Have you ever lived under colonial rule? Well, I have, even if for a short while my parents and grandparents have. None of them want to live under colonial no matter how bad the situation is in their nation. The idea that the western world is more civilized when they are responsible for some of the greatest genocide of the native people on this planet is so ridiculous and ignorant I do not even know where to start. I know many Zimbabwean and no not one of them would go back to the Rhodesia era. It's not like they were well treated under that particular regime. The civilized world? In what sense is the western world more civilized than anyone else when you consider their bloody history. Just because you hate the black and brown people does not make us uncivilized.

Wt? You need to check out you mind if you believe what you wrote. Your only defence is to accuse people of racism, that's a poor defence. It is just a fact that all the people in Israel have it good. Israel is a wonderful place, the econmy is booming and it's a true democracy planted in the desert. Hopefully democracy can spread throughout the ME from there and we may see other states begin to flourish too. One can only dream

originally posted by: enkilo
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Have you ever lived under colonial rule? Well, I have, even if for a short while my parents and grandparents have. None of them want to live under colonial no matter how bad the situation is in their nation. The idea that the western world is more civilized when they are responsible for some of the greatest genocide of the native people on this planet is so ridiculous and ignorant I do not even know where to start. I know many Zimbabwean and no not one of them would go back to the Rhodesia era. It's not like they were well treated under that particular regime. The civilized world? In what sense is the western world more civilized than anyone else when you consider their bloody history. Just because you hate the black and brown people does not make us uncivilized.

Sharia law ruled countries are such nice places... come on now. You defend killers and now you prefer sharia law to basic human rights in a democracy? You really don't think much do you?
Nobody wants to go backwards. Nobody wants colonial rule or apartheid.
That's the whole point but you can't talk to people only yelling "die" to your face. We can agree that can be considered unreasonable "uncivilised" behaviour, no?
The extremist racist are a minority on one side and the majority on the side you keep defending.

a reply to: Peeple

Nobody wants colonial rule or apartheid.

Except that they do. Who's "they"? Zionist hardliners, evangelical christians and wahabites for example.
There's no need to gloss over the actual realpolitik of the last decades either.

That's the whole point but you can't talk to people only yelling "die" to your face.

Famous last words of Abbas during his phone call with Trump? No, of course not.

The extremist racist are a minority

So what? With moving an embassy the minority of Armageddon Trumpets got their wish granted as well.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It is just a fact that all the people in Israel have it good. Israel is a wonderful place, the econmy is booming and it's a true democracy planted in the desert

...watered down with gasoline and occasionally burned with the box of all-party-usage-matches.

The economy is booming in Turkey as well btw, there's your other perfect democracy to team up with.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Well the on topic part of fact checking came back negative.

quora
(I'd say it's up to you to show me the connection with evangelical christians and wahabites wanting colonialism, what it has to do with anything and that it is in fact true and relevant)
And I mean there are flat eathers too, does that change that the majority ie the norm ie the relevant part to talk about know it's a sphere?

Yet he refused to talk to Pence who was willing to go there and discuss it.

Because a minority is in favour of something and you disagree with them nobody is allowed to make a move? Overall:
Whaaaaat?

a reply to: Peeple

And the political reality is an apartheid regime under Netanyahu. That's the kind of zionist hardliner I was getting at. With regards to all the illegal settlements (Golan Heights etc) colonialism isn't too far off the charts, just think about it.

But Pence... really? Abbas had a nice chat with Trump, didn't he? What's left to discuss with fricken Pence now?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Can you back that up? The "nice talk"? I mean post this decision not the one in DC, where Abbas now says Trump tricked him, as that is obviously irrelevant by now.


Oh and Netanyahu who is a hard liner, no question, that's why he's under pressure since he was elected. But he also keeps saying I'll make concessions

That's not exactly close to the nice people of Palestine reacting to a symbolic move with death threats, rockets, and Abbas denying to talk to the US since.

a reply to: Peeple

What? Why, you think Abbas is some kind of street fighter hurling death threats or something? Gimme a break, would you?

Blame the Palestinians all day long if you like, but I think the agitated folks on the street are just more useful idiots in this game of dorks. Listen to radical zionists from the Golan Heights if you wanna hear a similar language in combination with hate. Whatabaoutisms are just whatabaoutisms and humans tend to be somewhat predictable in their reactions. What the heck did you folks expect, fricken confetti for another presidential Dick Cheney stunt?

Did you just try to break a lance for Netanyahu? Why should anyone judge him by his empty words and not by his actions?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Ok so you can't back up your claims you have to start twisting my words, I think we are done talking about this.

Because honestly I believe you and all the others defending the killers and terrorists in this story just would hate this conflict to actually be solved as it's the only opportunity you got to hide your subliminal antisemitism behind virtue signaling.

a reply to: Peeple

And now Abbas is a terrorist? I posted a DW article regarding their brief talk in my first post on this thread, but it didn't mention details. I'm just assuming that no death threats have been issued, that's all. Common sense, innit?

Maybe it's time to... as Trump stated so eloquently... realize, that there is violence on both sides? I'm not defending anything else than Ghandis resolve. And I wont blame one side in this conflict whilst shutting down opposing opinions with the antisemitism club during the same debate, why should I? What was that about? The new normal of objectivity or are you just running out of decent talking points?

the only opportunity you got to hide your subliminal antisemitism behind virtue signaling.

We're just talking and I respectfully disagree, the mud-pit is filled with opportunities and your slander is nothing but a weak strawman. Go ahead and quote my posts?

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Then show me the link. You don't really expect me to go through your post history to back up your claim that Trump and Abbas had a nice chat since this decision, do you?
Because I won't.

All I said about Abbas is he is refused to talk to the US, in the person of Pence. And that Palestine is filled with (Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas which are) terrorists and killers. There was a coma and an and in my sentence in case you missed that. So how am I supposed to argue with you, if you go all hysterical and start inventing things I never said?

Israel is really doing all they can to keep this as non-lethal as possible as proven by them not using live bullets almost all the time, but rubber bullets and water guns.

Sorry I am not patient enough to take all your false accusations without an answer. So yes it makes me think it's antisemitism that keeps you defending terrorists and killers why else would you? Prove me otherwise. But all you do is saying Israel is neferious because a tiny percentage of their population has a weird idea about zionism. That's just as unfair as saying all americans are stupid because a handful of them believes in the flat earth theory.

There is nothing respectful about willfully misreading what I wrote. And that I have go through your post history to back up your claims.
I don't even know what you want from me. The answer you jumped in on this discussion with is just wrong. And all you do ever since is blaming me for things I never said. So seriously, go back and read that yourself, show me the link where Abbas is open for talks and maybe I will reconsider what I wrote about you.

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: enkilo

If you stand up to tyrants but are unwilling to kill them, then they will inevitably kill you.

Ghandi doesn't disagree with you here, but survival wasn't his prime objective either. Which is why this form of peaceful protest was so fricken effective btw.
Any form of violence will obviously play straight into the Apartheid regimes playbook.

 

Here's an informative presentation from Jeff Halper on why the 2-state-solution is history by now.

It was effective because it was backed up by violence. Indirectly, because the Brits needed the support of allies such as the USA in order to survive, and the USA was taking the side of the people of India (in particular first lady Eleanor Roosevelt). Each time one of these protests happened, and got put down by violence, on camera, the USA tilted further in the direction of not helping the Brits in the next war.

To argue Ghandi's methods worked with no threat of violence would be like arguing a Mafia Don operates without murdering anyone (he has other people do the assassinations.)

If there were no cameras, or if the USA and other nations had not been interested, or if the British had been in a position to stand on their own (without needing the USA's vast production capability to help them arm their soldiers), the whole plan would have failed. The British colonizers would have just laughed, and jailed everyone, including Ghandi himself.

a reply to: Peeple

I'd say our little chat is filled with misunderstandings.

Israel is really doing all they can to keep this as non-lethal as possible as proven by them not using live bullets almost all the time, but rubber bullets and water guns.

Meanwhile...

Some 4,500 Palestinians protested in six locations along the Strip's border with Israel. The Red Crescent said 15 people were hurt by live IDF gunfire, and a further 20 wounded by rubber bullets in the area of Khan Younis, in the south of Gaza. Three people are reported to be critical condition. Clashes also took place in Jabalia and the Nahal Oz area, along the Strip's border.

2 Palestinians Killed, 98 Wounded in Clashes With Israeli Troops in West Bank, Gaza

You can see why I'd disagree with you again, can you?

So yes it makes me think it's antisemitism that keeps you defending terrorists and killers why else would you? Prove me otherwise. But all you do is saying Israel is neferious because a tiny percentage of their population has a weird idea about zionism.

The radical zionists aint a fringe group, they pretty much dictate the policies. And they apply pressure on the more liberal jews, this isn't a free and democratic society. That's what I want to see, like many others, but I don't.

But it’s not just Gaza, and the latest episode of “shock and awe” militarism. The romantic Zionist ideal, to which Jewish liberals — and I was one, once — subscribed for so many decades, has been tarnished by the reality of modern Israel. The attacks on freedom of speech and human rights organizations in Israel, the land-grabbing settler movement, a growing strain of anti-Arab and anti-immigrant racism, extremist politics, and a powerful, intolerant religious right — this mixture has pushed liberal Zionism to the brink.

The End of Liberal Zionism

Here's another example:

After what turned out to be a brief stint working as a national security aide to President Donald Trump, Sebastian Gorka unloaded on the group that he considered his chief tormentors: liberal Jews. In a radio interview, Gorka said his support for Israel was the reason many on the left singled him out for opprobrium. In particular, he said, “The liberal elements of the American Jewish population, has basically become anti-Israeli. It’s the greatest, saddest paradox.”

Is he right about that?

No. Like all such generalizations, any attempt to describe all liberal Jews as anti-Israel is a slander. Some liberals have turned on Israel and they have swelled the ranks of critical groups like J Street, with many others backing anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic organizations like Jewish Voice for Peace that support the BDS movement. But most liberal Jews are still pro-Israel and many play a role in maintaining support for Israel via AIPAC and other groups.

The truth about Gorka, liberal Jews and Israel

The anti-israel and anti-semite lable has been used for centuries in order to shun critical voices. Ask yourself, do you really wanna be part of that?

Israel is a model state for the region, even Saudi is coming on side into accepting Israel as a neighbour. Can you imagine the peace when it comes? Israel combined with a peaceful eastern Mediterranean can only be good for the world. It's a great place as is much of the Arab world. Imagine free travel along the coastal highway from Tel Aviv to Lebanon, a scenic route of beauty along with a cultural landscape of mystical architecture that has sent out much of what we in the west treat as our religions and laws of today.

Let it happen, we can all get along. Muslims ARE PART of the west just like Jews and Christians. Islam must be recognised as part of the west because it always has been, it is basically the same religion / culture as the other Abrahamic religions far removed from the eastern religions.

A true peace will come it is on the cards the whole region will come to accept Israel as brother beacause there is no other way

originally posted by: PublicOpinion
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

It is just a fact that all the people in Israel have it good. Israel is a wonderful place, the econmy is booming and it's a true democracy planted in the desert

...watered down with gasoline and occasionally burned with the box of all-party-usage-matches.

The economy is booming in Turkey as well btw, there's your other perfect democracy to team up with.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

i didn't post this comment. was just quoting an earlier poster

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

wtf. where have I used the racism card? are you reading anything I'm posting because you beginning to sound like a bot?Your comment is addressed to me but you do not take into account anything I've said. you are the one who has been calling others uncivilized and animals. I've made very detailed and reasoned arguments and I would like you to dissect it and make your counterpoint but not put words in my mouths. You keep talking about how wonderful Israel is but we are not discussing Israel proper we discussing the occupied territories. Not a wonderful place to live at all. Plus Israel is rampant with racism and discriminations against the black Jewish populations. The measure of a civilization is how it treats it's weaker member and Israel has a terrible record in this department.