I am no longer walking on the path of Islam .

originally posted by: Kapusta

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
Religion has caused some of the most disastrous events in human history. Yet, as I was raised a Catholic, I still try find the good in religion and justify (to an extent) what it stands for. Much like you did with Islam. Because religion actually isn't ALL bad. But the bad does probably outweigh the good.

In regards to Islam, it's something that concerns me. I have many Muslim friends and think the absolute world of them. But from my point of view, to follow Islam (in it's truest form) is extremely backward. The biggest joke I ever heard was that Islam is a religion of peace.

Islam is the fastest (and probably only?) growing religion around today. And that's a scary thought.

Islam was suited for its time. Islam is suited for people who are in states or spiritual depression . Islam is suited for thoes who want to learn or understand thw tools to grow in spirituality. Islam doesn't work well in our time.

In an age of science and technology finding and understanding spirituality is slowly fading away . It's sad really.

When I say that I don't mean spirituality as in a particular "religion" because spirituality had no such religion at its core .

That's the issue. Religion doesn't work in the same capacity as it used to. To me, religion should fall back to faith and spirituality. That's really all I care about. I will always have faith in something after this life, and a higher power/energy of sorts. Call it God, call it what you will.

so if religion doesn't work in the same capacity, why is Islam trying? There seems to be an up rise in Muslims living their life in accordance with scripture and archaic practices. I don't say this because of the media - I'm not talking of extremist Islam (even though it is STILL Islam) - I'm talking about day to day life. The western society does not mix with Islam, when practiced properly.

I feel a lot more people from other religious groups are taking a much more casual approach to their practices. Which I think is wise in today's society. Religious practices and teachings are often old fashioned. Keep the faith, rid of the dogma.

a reply to: MrConspiracy

Religion is supposed to bring peace - but the problem is that they all have different names. A different label, a different umbrella. When there is more than one - there is conflict.

What is there really?
If it could just be understood that what is happening IS happening - this is the ONE.
This one gets divided by words - before and after. There is no before and after - there is only this that IS.
Take away the labels for just a minute - and the peace that is sought is right here.

If there is no story running about 'you and before and after' what is wrong (or right)?
Can the story about 'you and yours' be noticed?
What is it that notices the stories? Where and when do the stories arise? Are the stories true?

a reply to: MrConspiracy

Religion has caused some of the most disastrous events in human history.

Its usually about territory and riches - Religion is used as a pretext, a "moral right" to attack the unbeliever; who just so happens to have the resources you want..

a reply to: Kapusta

May Peace be with you my Brother.

I want to start by saying that I’m sorry to hear how religion has ruined your marriage. Religion should be about the uplifting of people, rather than separating and dividing us from one another.

In my experience their is an energy, god , buddah, Shiva, Allah . Whatever you wish to identify it as . That energy is love at the purest form. Also in my experience their is an energy that is void of love. Satan , demons, and so forth . What ever you want to attach to that .


It's very real . And can be controlled by man .

I have walked a similar path and have come to similar conclusions. During different parts of my life, I have devoutly followed Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam. I have gained much from each system, but I chose to walk away for literary corruptions, rigid dogmatism, doctrinal disagreements, and for my own personal growth.

I have found the Subtle Realms, Spirituality, and the Absolute/One/God to be a very real phenomenal experience for me, and have come to view religion as the relative and subjective interpretation of such metaphysical phenomena. Conflicts arise as the fluidity and vastness of Truth becomes confined to the limiting constraints of an organized system,... which is based upon the relative and subjective experiences and/or understandings of a founder,... which is then taken out of its original social, cultural, and periodic context, by imposing its archaic edicts upon an ever-evolving world.

Over all I can say that Islam in its purity is a religion of peace . At least that's what it was supposed to be. And when practiced according to the Quran and sunna it is 100% . Most Muslims do practice according to this.

I disagree. When Islam is followed 100% according to Qur’an and/or ahadith,.... it’s practitioners become absolutely polarized with Peace and Conflict. Muhammad’s message in the early Meccan Period was one of pacifism, non-violence, peace, and freedom of belief,.... while Muhammad’s message in the later Medinan Period was one of provocation, violence, totalitarianism, and religious persecution.

If a Muslim is to walk a truly peaceful Islamic path, they must ignore and reject the violent and oppressive edicts of the Medinan Period, for truly, the Medinan Period was one of division and separation based upon a religious superiority complex.

Islam was suited for its time. Islam is suited for people who are in states or spiritual depression . Islam is suited for thoes who want to learn or understand thw tools to grow in spirituality. Islam doesn't work well in our time.

I completely agree. Islam is in desperate need of a modern Reformation.

The Medinan revelations that instigate violence and division should be openly interpreted as a strictly historic happenstance, whose application in our current time period should be denounced and rejected, in favor of brotherhood and peace that transcends cultural and social differences.

Slavery should be completely and utterly forbidden and annihilated, rather than the provisional tip-toeing in Islam that allows the subjugation and captivity of human beings.

Women deserve much more consideration, rights, and equity than Islam allows. Women should have an equal voice in court and politics, rather than being counted as half-that of a man. Women should also be allowed to marry anyone they so choose, regardless of the religious orientation of the man that they love. In no way should religion ordain spousal abuse through the corporal punishment of wives.




I wish you success and fulfillment on your path. May Peace be with you.

originally posted by: Sahabi
I wish you success and fulfillment on your path. May Peace be with you.

If you are on a path seeking fulfilment you are not at peace - you are looking for it - it is a sure sign that you don't have peace if you are on a path looking for it - or looking for a path to lead you to peace.

Peace cannot be with you. Peace is an assumed 'thing' and you are an assumed 'thing'.

This right here and right now is peace. But as soon as thoughts that speak about 'me' and 'time' arise the peace is shattered. Peace is not the result of some 'thing' - peace is the absence of 'things'.
You can be unhappy/conflicted about some 'thing' or many 'things' but you need no 'thing' to be happy/non conflicted.

If you were not to make an idol of yourself (that appears in time) and found out what you really are - the peace that is ever present would be revealed.

Thought/words may say that you are a concept - but find out that all concepts arise within the non conceptual.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I am a practitioner of mysticism and a student of esoterism. According to my personal experiences of samadhi, I would tend to agree with your statements. The fundamental core, essence, and principle of our eternal being-ness is always at the perfection within the silence,.... however, we are gifted with the relativity and subjectivity of this physical vehicle that expresses and manifests itself according to thought and time.

It is a dangerously slippery slope to impose the Absolute and Objective onto the limitations and existential experiences of relative-subjective human individuality. The fact that the physical body exists within time, thought, and in relationship to other things, is proof enough that this limited and fleeting life is a rare gift being manifest from that source of stillness.

If we were meant to live without thought or time indefinitely, we would not exist in a body that is structured for the experience of time and thought.

Even the action of choosing a username and posting on social forums is proof enough that we are expressions of thought and time while we are living as physical humans.

a reply to: Sahabi

I disagree. When Islam is followed 100% according to Qur’an and/or ahadith,.... it’s practitioners become absolutely polarized with Peace and Conflict. Muhammad’s message in the early Meccan Period was one of pacifism, non-violence, peace, and freedom of belief,.... while Muhammad’s message in the later Medinan Period was one of provocation, violence, totalitarianism, and religious persecution. 

If a Muslim is to walk a truly peaceful Islamic path, they must ignore and reject the violent and oppressive edicts of the Medinan Period, for truly, the Medinan Period was one of division and separation based upon a religious superiority complex. 

As I have stated before . I don't wish to debate scripture. But as an X ordodox Muslim I will say Muhammad's message was as you stated as such in the "early meccan period " non violence,peace and so forth .

This can all be verified as authentic and traced back to the sahaba . After that it comes down to a matter of authenticating hadith . And many hadith about Muhammad were often fabricated. And can be classed as such.
What in mean by that is some sects accept weak hadith about the things Muhammad did or said etc and apply them to their own interpretation of Islam . Thus forming a sect .

So in essence the core foundation ,message and belief system of Muhammad's Islam was indeed of peace.

a reply to: Sahabi

I have walked a similar path and have come to similar conclusions. During different parts of my life, I have devoutly followed Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam. I have gained much from each system, but I chose to walk away for literary corruptions, rigid dogmatism, doctrinal disagreements, and for my own personal growth.

Good to see you in this thread Sahabi . Have you found literary perfection where you are now ? Do you find doctrinal practices to follow dogmatically ? Have you found that you change your doctrine as you grow ? I guess what I am getting at is the fact that we are all on a different page in our search . A newbi is going to differ from a elder and elders will differ . We seem to have this idea that there is a one and there is but because we are individuals we will never collectively know the one until we see Him face to face . imo peace

the newest group I heard of who support & Demand Jihad is: Dar-ul-Uloom

for every attempt by moderate Muslims to have a 'voice than can be heard' there is a counter group who insist on wielding a 'Stick' to enforce their views on both wayward Muslims & the wide world of Infidels

a reply to: Kapusta

I understand what you are saying. I, too, was a follower of the as-Salaf as-Salih, as indicated by my ATS username: “Sahabi”. I am also well aware of the science of ahadith,... as I have studied the isnad (chain of narration) of many of the more relevant and popular ahadith, and always strove to seek dalil (proof) as to the rating of sahih (fully authentic).

According to Medinan Qur’an revelations, Medinan-era ahadith, and the historicity of actual historic events,... it is quite clear that the later portion of Muhammad’s prophethood was one steeped in campaigns of totalitarianism, violence, and forced conversion. This is not a matter of scriptural interpretation, it is a matter of actual and factual events.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Hello my Brother!

I have not found literary perfection, for I have stopped searching for such. Regarding the religions and belief systems that I have encountered, within them, I can always find something that I agree with which inspires me, and also things that I disagree with. I do not follow any system of structured authoritative dogma nor doctrine.

I am of the opinion that the Absolute/One/God is far too grand to be encapsulated by any person, scripture, or system. The world can not agree on a unified opinion regarding any one song, food, clothing, or even the Sun which we all experience everyday,... and we can not even directly experience sights and sounds outside of our physical limitations. In this way, I feel that something much more grand than music, food, or ultra/infra sound/light, i.e.; Absolute/One/God, can not be confined to our limited knowledge, perceptions, and/or experiences. We can attempt to understand and experience the Subtle, but we can not confine God to our limitations.

My world-view has and does change with time, as my own knowledge, experiences, and understandings grow, change, and evolve. I have been erroneous in my beliefs many times, and I no longer fear being wrong in the future, as I am open to change, versus being rigidly staunch in my beliefs.

As for the time being, I am a proponent of the complete and utter unity, wholeness, and oneness of existence, as it is observational and empirical. From this, I seek balance and goodness in the cause-and-effect that I am personally responsible for, as my thoughts, emotions, and actions go on to affect all. Existentially, everything in physical reality appears to follow order, natural laws, and mathematics. Similar to Plato’s ”Allegory of the Cave”, I have come to view the shadows and forms of our world as Archetypes and Forms expressed from a subtler and Higher vibrational reality,... of which is being perpetuated by an even subtler and higher all-encompassing Intelligence that I like to refer to as the Absolute, the One, and/or God.

I guess you could say that I most align with Panentheistic Monism, with a Perennial view of the teachings of Hermeticism, Buddhism, Daoism, and the canonical and non-canonical Gospels of Jesus. I am intent on Truth, but I would be willing to admit when/where I am wrong.

a reply to: Sahabi

Have you considered that what is seeing is the one?
Everything seen is different but what is seeing?

St. Francis of Assisi said 'What we are looking for is what is looking'.

What is it that is looking for God or peace or the one?

originally posted by: Kapusta
a reply to: Xenogears

In my experience their is an energy, god , buddah, Shiva, Allah . Whatever you wish to identify it as . That energy is love at the purest form. Also in my experience their is an energy that is void of love. Satan , demons, and so forth . What ever you want to attach to that .


It's very real . And can be controlled by man .

Humans are very much enamored by the bliss they get from loving family and friends. But this sensation is neither objectively good nor bad, it is simply a product of evolution. Connect the brain to a computer, and the sensation of pain torture and rape is merely addition to transition between a sequence of numbers, the same sequence of numbers can cause pleasure and caress if merely reinterpreted.

A higher state of existence need not be bound by human morality or what humans find good. It is conceivable that it transcends the notion of good and evil. The world itself nature, it offers both wonders and horrors, it just is, this the way things are. If you assume an artist creates a work of art, the art can often reflect the artist's mind, if you find rape and torture in his works, perhaps that is something he doesn't mind conveying even if it involves subjecting conscious beings to such.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

I agree. At the uninfluenced center of us all is a conscious spark of the Divine. Some call it the Observer, the Watcher, the Witness of Consciousness, Pure Awareness, Higher Self, or even the I AM. I prefer to conceptualize it as the seventh principle; the Atma.

I am no longer looking or searching, but instead, I am experiencing and learning/growing through experience.

originally posted by: Sahabi
Some call it the Observer, the Watcher, the Witness of Consciousness, Pure Awareness, Higher Self, or even the I AM.

Have you identified yourself as a particular 'thing' that appears or as the witness of what is appearing?

'I am' is present tense - it is true. 'I will be' or 'I was' is untrue - it speaks of a dead image. What 'I am' is; is not in time.

If you strip Islam of its cultural accretions it is a very simple creed.

Belief in (btw NOT God but the unseen)

Belief in revealed truth and guidance to prophets

Belief in an Apocalypse (or day of universal resurrection)

Prayer, fasting and a Hajj if you can make it.

Of course all these laws one can follow or not or believe as one sees it, and not to be dogmatized by some religious jerk-off telling you what to believe.

Of course doing good to others is the main part

The Quran says over over THAT YOU MUST DO GOOD!

You cant just run around believing something( professing some faith) and expect to go to heaven

YOU HAVE TO DO GOOD!

One does NOT have to follow all these ignorant brainwashed imams with all their laws and fiqh and shariah nonsense.

YOU HAVE TO DO GOOD DEEDS!

Follow your own conscience and interpret the lore as your own brain sees fit

One can listen to the imams, but they are NOT the arbiter of what is the truth

The problem with most ordinary believers in Islam, is that Islam, unlike the prophet ordered has developed a priesthood.


They are full of crap and ARE NOT men of knowledge and know very little but some laws they have memorized like a lawyer.

You may find a Sufi sheik with some real knowledge but thats about it.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Both.

My finite physical body (time) and intellectual mind (thought) arose from the infinite chains of cause-and-effect (universal harmony), while my eternal essence (Timeless) is the witness of all (One). I am a child of the Material (matter), which was preceded by the Immaterial (Spirit). In this physical world of manifest duality, Wisdom is found by reconciling the two into the One.

That is the question. What is religion trying to perfect.

How I like to say it is, what is the operand of religion?

Even these mystical statements or more esoteric ideas above are asking what in the world are we doing. Or trying to do, philosophically or ontologically speaking.

We have to understand there is something I call Special metaphysics and General metaphysics.

Ordinary religion most of us know of, that is not of the more esoteric kind, deals with special metaphysics

Of course, I am using Einstein’s General relativity and special relativity as an analog

Special metaphysics is dealing with the Fall of Man, the apocalypse or last day, Day of Judgment, Armageddon….etc.

General metaphysics is dealing with the spiritual laws of the universe outside of the time-centered Special metaphysics.

One has to balance the two. Unfortunately, many get too involved in general metaphysics and pay no attention to the Special metaphysics

And the reverse is true also, many get too involved in the special metaphysics( religion) and eschew the reality of general metaphysics to their detriment.

a reply to: Willtell

Maybe you should write a khutbah about that?


For the record, plenty of Imams have given khutbahs about the importance of doing good deeds. In fact, they give different khutbahs about vastly different topics, just like how church leaders do.

You seem to be implying that they're all powerful dictators when that's not the case at all. They typically spend their time learning, helping with duties related to the mosque, helping mediate good & bad issues that come up in the community (like weddings, contract disputes, funerals, etc), fundraising, etc. They can even travel to different seminars, travel to give guest sermons at other mosques, work separate unrelated jobs as their main jobs, and more.

Disclaimer: I'm not sure about Imams in Shia Islam, though. I've read that they're more strict with this & have a more established hierarchy, but I didn't care enough to look deeply into it.