I am no longer walking on the path of Islam .

a reply to: Willtell

I think you're misunderstanding what an Imam is. Imams in the Sunni branches are simply the congregation's most knowledgeable members of the Qur'an (and oftentimes Sunnah & Hadith). At its simplest form, it's no different than having a small group of factory workers choose their most productive coworker to be their "line lead". It's literally a system of the masses leading themselves. These kinds of Imams simply lead group prayers & give religious guidance when asked.

For example, suppose I want to know if it's religiously ok to climb a mountain by myself while naked. I might ask an Imam if this is forbidden or not. They'll answer me to the best of their knowledge, while typically pointing me to other sources of info to back their conclusions or to help me form my own conclusion. I'm not bound by anything they say, though it might change their opinion of me if they find out that I hypothetically wanted to go naked mountain climbing lol.

Then there are the full-time, paid Imams at large mosques and religious institutions. Where did you get the idea that they are not men of knowledge? Claiming they "know very little but some laws they have memorized like a lawyer" is simply preposterous. Do you know what Hafiz/Hafiza are? Many Imams literally dedicate their lives to not only memorizing massive amounts of rulings and interpretations, but also to memorizing the entire Qur'an. You may disagree with their conclusions, but chances are good that they've memorized far more of the Qur'an than "normal" Muslims have.

And that's only for religious knowledge. Simply assuming they may only know religious-related sects is wrong too. For example, my dad and several of his associates are Imams and they run their own mosque. Several of them also have doctorate degrees in things other than religious studies & are members of organizations like Toastmasters. My dad and at least one more were also professors at their local university in completely unrelated fields. And they are just the heads of a small mosque (meaning that they aren't even big shot Imams).

I see Imams as being no different than any other teacher or religious official. They are humans and they have human flaws. But they also have human strengths. Some are charismatic while some are boring. Some mix humor with their work while others are overly strict disciplinarians. Some are acclaimed experts in their fields while others are unorthodox and/or ignored by their communities. But unlike "normal" Muslims, they actually try to seek leadership positions in their communities (I prefer people who try to take the lead in solving issues instead of people who complain about things but refuse to help solve the issues).

I may not bind myself to their rulings or suggestions, but it's not like I completely dismiss them as frauds either. My major points of contention w/many of them are that there should be no divisions in the first place and that absolutely nothing overrides the Qur'an. In other words, I'm mainly against the existence of denominations and separate schools of thought in the first place. Those divisions were literally caused by the differing interpretations of men over time, which I believe is Shaytan's true goal (to get believers to split up and oppose each other).

When they simply offer their differing views as voluntary suggestions, I have no problem with it because people still have the choice to follow it or not with no worldly consequences. It's when they try to mandate their differences of opinion or interpretation that I get pissed. I don't care if people choose to worship Allah, Buddha, Michio Kaku's works, the latest "hot" pop star, or a frog statue; I'll only oppose it if people try to make it mandatory for others.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

This is correct the "big shots " are normally part of the "Ulema"a group of recognized shcolars who are particularly senior Scholars in their field . Field being Hadith , (muhadith) or Figh ( basically Islamic law ). The Ulema or senior Scholars normally are the ones who issue fatwa. That being an Islamic ruling on a certain topic reguarding Islamic knowledge etc. The problem is that even senior Scholars make mistakes . And since Islam really has no center figure head their is never agreement one fatwa. It's like each sect has their own ulema they listen to . I always followed scholars who were free of mistakes and backed everything they said up with evedence. But again interpretation plays a key role . And as the saying goes never follow a scholar blindly .

Just thought I would add that bit in . Another thing imams normally refer people to the ulema fataws for answers on certain religious matters.

a reply to: Kapusta

Very true. I think the differences in sects didn't really hit me until I noticed that different groups can have vastly different interpretations for the same exact phrase from the Qur'an. This is why I try to point out which translation of the Qur'an I'm quoting from and try to remind people that there is no single form of Sharia. Because each community may have small or massive differences in their rules. The Qur'an is also very lenient or vague on certain topics, which leads people to try to fill in the "blanks" with something.

A hypothetical example would be the phrase "You must fight injustice". Does the "you" refer to everyone, adults, males, or only adult males? Does the "must" mean that community leaders can decide a punishment for those who don't fight, or is the punishment for God to decide on Judgment Day? Does the "fight" refer to physical violence or simply the act of opposing? And who or what decides what "injustice" is (as in, is this up to the community or country's leaders to decide, is it based on religious law, or is it left to the individual's discretion)? A simple phrase like "You must fight injustice" can spawn any number of different interpretations.

And like you said, there's no centralized figure to consolidate or "correct" the various interpretations. Anybody can pick up a translation/interpretation of the Qur'an and get a basic understanding of what Islam believes God wants from us. Looking into more literal translations that break down the meanings of each word/phrase can give a better understanding. Learning it in Arabic can give an even better understanding, while learning the various historical connotations and dialects for each word/phrase can help even more.

But most individuals will never take the time to do that. I won't judge anyone for doing this or for not doing this, but if local community leaders have different things they're learning from, then their forms of Sharia will differ from other forms. But on the other hand, I think that too much knowledge in the intricate details of various texts and rulings can actually make people forget the whole point of Islam in the first place. I think this overthinking ends up creating overly detailed rules and procedures which are unnecessary and may cause more harm than good.

For the record, when the Qur'an is vague on something, I just assume that the details must not be important. It's very detailed on other things, so if God wanted to give specific details for those vague things, He could've done that. Therefore, I don't stress the small things and just focus on being the best man I can be.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

This is absoutly correct . Like I have stated all throughout this thread it comes down to a matter of interpretation. While some of the ulema have methods of finding exact meaning of a certain hadith or ayat. Their will always be another Scholar who disagrees . Now we enter Islamic politics 😂. This was a big problem for me . I was always being pulled in diffrent directions on certain rulings . The constant pointing bid'ah bid'ah bid'ah or shirk shirk shirk really made things difficult. So naturally I reverted to tawhid. And just stuck to that. I still very much belive in tawhid but as for the rest ... I just can't...

a reply to: Kapusta

Sharing such a personal thing isn't always easy, so kudos for that. It seems to me that perhaps God is trying o get your attention, and your journey thus far could be leading you to something far more real. I am curious about your experience with a "Baptist pastor"; there is some variation among the Baptist churches, and they are not all the same, by a long shot. As a rule, though, going to the Bible for verification tends to be a good plan. God won't ever tell someone to do something contradictory to His Word. Be sure to avoid "extra" books that aren't canon, though, because there is much misleading information that's been added on, as happens so often with any large religion. Separating the truth of God from the additions of man can be daunting. I do know this; if you pray, sincerely, seeking truth from God, He will listen, and bring that. He doesn't shout, but He always answers.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: Kapusta

Sharing such a personal thing isn't always easy, so kudos for that. It seems to me that perhaps God is trying o get your attention, and your journey thus far could be leading you to something far more real. I am curious about your experience with a "Baptist pastor"; there is some variation among the Baptist churches, and they are not all the same, by a long shot. As a rule, though, going to the Bible for verification tends to be a good plan. God won't ever tell someone to do something contradictory to His Word. Be sure to avoid "extra" books that aren't canon, though, because there is much misleading information that's been added on, as happens so often with any large religion. Separating the truth of God from the additions of man can be daunting. I do know this; if you pray, sincerely, seeking truth from God, He will listen, and bring that. He doesn't shout, but He always answers.

I agree. I know their is a creator . I just don't know if my path to him is man made. I have come to realize that a man made path to God is bound to lead one away from him .

My experience with the Baptist pastor was basically that I have to rely on faith alone . And not question any of the scripture . In retrospect that's prob solid advice . Keep it simple was the message . But keeping it "simple " didn't allow me to gain the connection my soul desired from the creator .

originally posted by: Kapusta
I agree. I know their is a creator . I just don't know if my path to him is man made. I have come to realize that a man made path to God is bound to lead one away from him .

My experience with the Baptist pastor was basically that I have to rely on faith alone . And not question any of the scripture . In retrospect that's prob solid advice . Keep it simple was the message . But keeping it "simple " didn't allow me to gain the connection my soul desired from the creator .

Well, faith is a key, of course, because we don't see God standing in front of us, and have to believe that He is real, to understand. That said, the path is one He made. For me, it isn't about religion, so much as about a relationship. Sounds trite, I know, but it's no less true. I will do what I can to explain, as best I can, what it's all about, based on what I believe.

God created us, and He gave us the ability to choose, so that we could choose to love and obey Him. No choice would mean we were no better than programmed robots, and that would not be real love. Of course, people chose to sin, to disobey God. That meant being separated from Him. The first man and woman walked with God, but after they chose to sin, that all changed. God cannot abide sin. Now, God knew this would happen, and He truly does love us, so He made a way to erase our sins. The penalty for sin is death, so He came int he form of a man, and died in our place. Now, since we still have the ability to choose, we can choose to accept what He did, or to reject it. Understanding that Jesus is God, and accepting what He did for us, is what makes one a Christian. The rest is just works. Yes, we should try and do good, to be kind to others, not commit crimes, etc, but we won't always get that right, saved or not. It's His death and resurrection (since even Death cannot hold God) that saves us.

Some time back, my sister shared with me a lesson for explaining what God did for us to a small child. Imagine, if you will, a father a the top of a staircase, and a child at the bottom. The child cannot reach the father, because the steps are too steep. There is no way to climb them, no way the child can reach the father. So, how does the child get what he so badly wants, which is to be held in his father's arms? He can't climb, he can't fly, he can't lower the steps. The child simply says, "Father, come pick me up." That's what he did for us.

Another lesson, imagine there is a bug in a jar. The child wants to know how the bug can not be afraid, and know that he jar is a safe place, with food, plants to crawl on, etc. How can the person explain that they want to release the bug, to an even better life, a better place? The only way - become a bug, and tell them.

I know their is a creator.

No you don't, you just believe it.
Remember why it it is called faith, belief in something you cannot verify.
I don't believe in any gods but I do not believe or claim to know there are no gods, that would also be a position of faith. I am faithless, a rational and honest point of view compared to claims of 'knowing' there is a creator. How can you know, oh enlightened one?

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Itisnowagain

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Both.

My finite physical body (time) and intellectual mind (thought) arose from the infinite chains of cause-and-effect (universal harmony), while my eternal essence (Timeless) is the witness of all (One). I am a child of the Material (matter), which was preceded by the Immaterial (Spirit). In this physical world of manifest duality, Wisdom is found by reconciling the two into the One.

The body and the thoughts are appearing now and are seen now - is there really 'a seer' separate from 'the seen'?
You are seeing what is appearing now - so 'you are now' and the image that is appearing is now.

The 'physical world' (the manifest) - is just what is appearing now. 'Outside of now' is a mental construct.

The two do not need reconciling - two is an unexamined belief - two cannot really become one. It has always been one pretending to be two. Well it isn't even one - there isn't any thing - there is just what there is.

Here is a nice little video.

originally posted by: TJames

I know their is a creator.

No you don't, you just believe it.
Remember why it it is called faith, belief in something you cannot verify.
I don't believe in any gods but I do not believe or claim to know there are no gods, that would also be a position of faith. I am faithless, a rational and honest point of view compared to claims of 'knowing' there is a creator. How can you know, oh enlightened one?

I know based off my own spiritual progression and experiences . I am 100% certain . I am sorry you can't draw the same conclusion.
Dimethyltryptamine ...... might speed up the process for you

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Exactly.

Can you not see that I have not been in disagreement with you? Simply, you are choosing to focus on the metaphysical absolutes, while ignoring what physical reality and existence is. It is true; there are no separations in either people, things, matter, energy, consciousness, place, space, or time. It is what it is.

However, while living this apparent life, in this apparent reality, as this apparent relative-subjective human being,... we see that time and thought, though fleeting and illusionary, are existential qualities bound to cause-and-effect. You and I have been replying to each other in time, thought, and cause-and-effect.

I am in full acknowledgement of the grandiose “Is-ness” and “Be-ness” that transcends idea, thing, space, and time,... but I also acknowledge the progression of experiences and moments that have so far carried me to this point in physical reality.

If you doubt the existence of time and thought in this human life,... can you remove all cause-and-effect, history, and traces of your family, friends, and acquaintances from your mind and life for ever while remaining alive? Can you sit under a tree and forgo food, drink, and movement indefinitely until you perish? Or will you continue to act and interact with the lessons and history of the past, while planning for tomorrow by paying bills, going to school/work, eating food, washing your clothes, making social plans, etcetera? Why do you intellectually doubt time, thought, and separation,.... while continuing to live your life under them? Sure, in the grander picture it is all an illusion,... but as human beings here and now, we are living by these illusions, and our discussion on this thread illustrates the progression of thought and time.

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Exactly.

Can you not see that I have not been in disagreement with you?

Not sure you are getting what is being presented - especially after reading on.

If you doubt the existence of time and thought in this human life,... can you remove all cause-and-effect, history, and traces of your family, friends, and acquaintances from your mind and life for ever while remaining alive? Can you sit under a tree and forgo food, drink, and movement indefinitely until you perish? Or will you continue to act and interact with the lessons and history of the past, while planning for tomorrow by paying bills, going to school/work, eating food, washing your clothes, making social plans, etcetera? Why do you intellectually doubt time, thought, and separation,.... while continuing to live your life under them? Sure, in the grander picture it is all an illusion,... but as human beings here and now, we are living by these illusions, and our discussion on this thread illustrates the progression of thought and time.

Thought happens now! But where is time?
Thoughts or 'memories' happen now - thoughts of 'me in time' appear now. Is there really a 'me in time'? Is there really a 'me' (separate to what is happening), that can act now'?
'i' cannot sit under a tree forever forgoing food - 'I' can't do anything - because there is no separate me that can do anything. Sitting under a tree can happen - but it is not 'me' doing it - all that appears is not done by anyone.

I do not continue to 'live my life'. Life is what is happening - there isn't a me that lives it.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Assalaamu alaikum

a reply to: Kapusta

I've used it a few times in life and still don't believe in gods. Fantastic trip though I agree.

a reply to: Sahabi

Assalaamu alaikum

This video is 2 mins long - it explains 'witnessing' without 'witness or observer'.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

a reply to: Kapusta

Very good points and clear explanations

However, on an individual level, and sometimes small and isolated social communities do taqleed (blindly follow) their local imam. I’ve seen it right here in the good ‘ol U.S. of A., where brothers and sisters cling to every word, opinion, and religious interpretation of the imam.

originally posted by: TJames
a reply to: Kapusta

I've used it a few times in life and still don't believe in gods. Fantastic trip though I agree.

Well then I would say you have some spirtul work to do my friend .

What was the message you got from your journey?

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: enlightenedservant

a reply to: Kapusta

Very good points and clear explanations

However, on an individual level, and sometimes small and isolated social communities do taqleed (blindly follow) their local imam. I’ve seen it right here in the good ‘ol U.S. of A., where brothers and sisters cling to every word, opinion, and religious interpretation of the imam.

Yeah I have witnessed that as well . It's unfortunate . Or fortunate depending on how knowledgeable the imam is . Or if he's truly upon the Quran and Sunna .

originally posted by: Kapusta

originally posted by: TJames
a reply to: Kapusta

I've used it a few times in life and still don't believe in gods. Fantastic trip though I agree.

Well then I would say you have some spirtul work to do my friend .

What was the message you got from your journey?

I'd love to discuss this in more depth but I'm pretty sure it's against ATS rules so we'd probably best leave it for another dimension.

Kind regards to you though

a reply to: TJames

No you don't, you just believe it. Remember why it it is called faith, belief in something you cannot verify. I don't believe in any gods but I do not believe or claim to know there are no gods, that would also be a position of faith. I am faithless, a rational and honest point of view compared to claims of 'knowing' there is a creator. How can you know, oh enlightened one?

We as humans live in a world of uncertainty's with a dash of hope in every day life .To know is to believe with a level of certainty attached to it . To not engage into activities without 100% certainty would make for a boring life and may even be borderline dangerous to ones mental health if taken to extremes .

My premise to believe and find out He is not there as opposed to believing and finding out He is there carries with it a human experience in this life as well as the next if that next does exist . There are many human experiences many people will not have the opportunity to partake of for a multitude of reasons .The opportunity to exercise faith in a God and of our self is the only things that seem to be 100% certain . Whats next is anyone guess much like what was before the me is anyone guess but we can be certain there was a before and will be a after .